The Double Draft

Sun 24th - DavidG vs skizzo/pat
Mon 25th -
Tue 26th - Chesterlestreet vs marty1968/RedTiger
Wed 27th - joga vs Invictus
Thu 28th - Downcast vs Tuppet
Fri 29th -
Sat 30th -
 
@ctp don't really want to do Friday so will have to be Saturday then.
 
Sun 24th - DavidG vs skizzo/pat
Mon 25th -
Tue 26th - Chesterlestreet vs marty1968/RedTiger
Wed 27th - joga vs Invictus
Thu 28th - Downcast vs Tuppet
Fri 29th -
Sat 30th - ctp vs P-Nut0712
 
mazhar13 said:
Hmm...well, let's say any day but Friday. You decide.
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Tuesday ok then?

Downcast said:
Tuppet has an easy team to read: 14 players including 2 GK.

Good luck on guessing my starting 11 with my 20 players :lol:
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yeah Tuppet's starting 11 is pretty set from the look of it. Probably mine is easy to guess as well. I had in mind some more variety(and I also have it with couple of versatile players) but sjor, chester and joga beat me to some of the full backs.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
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I really like this one.

Bulgarelli in particular is a great shout. I picked him in a previous draft (can't remember which one) and ended up doing loads of research on him as a player - a proper complete, well-rounded, technical midfielder.
 
Is Gerson picked in the end? If not he is must in any unpicked 11 IMO
 
Cal? said:
@harms

Monday or Tuesday?
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If those are your only options, Tuesday. I'm going to a wedding tomorrow (well, today), and I'll be hammered at least for two days

If it's possible, I would've preferred a date later that week
 
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Tuppet said:
Seeing at the older drafts, he is not even picked in some of the all time drafts, that is amazing, when as a winger only Best and Garrincha are close to him. I get that he works in a very fixed position, still he is an all time great. Any other draft junkies care to shed a light on this ?
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Well, at least (for me), Dzajic is clearly better - and it's not because I've got him, well, it's the reason why I've got him. Finney was considered by many the better player at the time.

I would put him in Figo category - clearly world-class players who aren't as talented as the best ever in this position.

For the initial bid he is a steal though
 
harms said:
If those are your only options, Tuesday. I'm going to a wedding tomorrow (well, today), and I'll be hammered at least for two days

If it's possible, I would've preferred a date later that week
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I don't mind later, just not Friday
 
harms said:
Well, at least (for me), Dzajic is clearly better - and it's not because I've got him, well, it's the reason why I've got him. Finney was considered by many the better player at the time.

I would put him in Figo category - clearly world-class players who aren't as talented as the best ever in this position.

For the initial bid he is a steal though
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Is there a reason you think Dzajic is clearly better than him ? is it the league titles wins that you are counting against Stan ? Because most of independent authorities like IFFHS, world soccer magazine etc seem to rank Matthews much higher in their rankings. Not that it matter much, I am a big fan of Dzajic but would love to know what makes you think him as clearly better. The more I am reading/watching about him the more I am getting the impression that he is not just a generational great but was right up there with Best and Garrincha as the absolute best in their own position.

The way youth & legacy player requirements have fallen, he might not even be in my XI in the first round of draft. So I am not just saying this to sell him etc. I would genuinely like to find out more about him.
 
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Tuppet said:
Is there a reason you think Dzajic is clearly better than him ? is it the league titles wins that you are counting against Stan ? Because most of independent authorities like IFFHS, world soccer magazine etc seem to rank Matthews much higher in their rankings. Not that it matter much, I am a big fan of Dzajic but would love what makes you think him as clearly better, because the more I am reading/watching about him the more I am getting the impression that he is not just a generational great, but was right up there with Best and Garrincha as the absolute best in their own position.

The way youth & legacy player requirements have fallen, he might not even be in my XI in the first round of draft. So I am not just saying this to sell him etc. I would genuinely like to find out more about him.
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I rate Sir Stan really highly myself. He's one of the first players to maintain his fitness really well, which is what made him continue to be a great winger even into his late 40's. His control, trickery, and intelligence really made him tough to play against.

Initially, he was quite a direct, attacking winger, who would score 10+ goals a season. However, when he started to get double-teamed more often, he changed his game and became a really dangerous wide midfielder. The reason I mentioned is that he wasn't just a quick, tricky winger. His crossing was up there with the best as well. Not only did the opposition have to stop him from beating them with his dribbling, close control, and trickery, they also had to stop him from putting dangerous crosses in as well as keep on top of him for the full match, and Matthews was one of the fittest players around. I'd argue that he'd be perfect for today's era as well when players are super fit and matches are played at a faster pace.
 
Sivori
Savicevic Albert Ribery
V.Mazzola Netto
Irwin Adams Picci Armfield
Zamora​
 
Tuppet said:
Is there a reason you think Dzajic is clearly better than him ? is it the league titles wins that you are counting against Stan ? Because most of independent authorities like IFFHS, world soccer magazine etc seem to rank Matthews much higher in their rankings. Not that it matter much, I am a big fan of Dzajic but would love what makes you think him as clearly better, because the more I am reading/watching about him the more I am getting the impression that he is not just a generational great, but was right up there with Best and Garrincha as the absolute best in their own position.

The way youth & legacy player requirements have fallen, he might not even be in my XI in the first round of draft. So I am not just saying this to sell him etc. I would genuinely like to find out more about him.
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With the players from that era it's always subjective, of course (not that we can form an objective opinion about anything though, but that's the question to the philosophers) - but I feel that Matthews failed to make an impact on the highest level, most importantly in the international tournament. His Ballon D'Or (again, from what I've read) was mostly a testament to his outstanding career, more alike today's Golden Foot.

He is widely considered as one of the best dribblers to play the game - along with Garrincha, Dzajic himself and a few others, but for me he is a better version of Johnstone (and this is a highly praise from me) and not a real contender for the winger's spot in the all-time XI.

Dzajic, though, was absolutely immense in 1968 (and very, very unlucky not to win the title) and in 1976, playing for a significantly worse teams.

When we are talking about the best wingers of all time it's Dzajic on the left and Garrincha on the right for me (although I'm excluding Best as he was more of a free-roaming attacker - he is an equal to Garrincha and Dzajic is a level below them, and not counting the inside-forwards like C. Ronaldo and Kalle). I'm a bit of a Dzajic fan boy though
 
harms said:
With the players from that era it's always subjective, of course (not that we can form an objective opinion about anything though, but that's the question to the philosophers) - but I feel that Matthews failed to make an impact on the highest level, most importantly in the international tournament. His Ballon D'Or (again, from what I've read) was mostly a testament to his outstanding career, more alike today's Golden Foot.

He is widely considered as one of the best dribblers to play the game - along with Garrincha, Dzajic himself and a few others, but for me he is a better version of Johnstone (and this is a highly praise from me) and not a real contender for the winger's spot in the all-time XI.

Dzajic, though, was absolutely immense in 1968 (and very, very unlucky not to win the title) and in 1976, playing for a significantly worse teams.

When we are talking about the best wingers of all time it's Dzajic on the left and Garrincha on the right for me (although I'm excluding Best as he was more of a free-roaming attacker - he is an equal to Garrincha and Dzajic is a level below them, and not counting the inside-forwards like C. Ronaldo and Kalle). I'm a bit of a Dzajic fan boy though
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I won't try to make it Dzajic vs Matthews, I love Dzajic myself and can see anyone preferring one over the other. What I'd like to clear up is his Ballon d'or award. From all that I read, it was awarded like always by a panel of voters with Sir Stanley receiving 47 points over Di Stefano receiving 44, Kopa 33 and Puskas 32 points. The voting might be considered contentious like it was in many other years, but it wasn't an honorary award.

As for why would he receive it, in that year - He led Blackpool to second place behind only to Sir Busby's first great United team. England also played some blinders in that time as well: Hammering Spain @ Wembley 4-1 in Nov. of '55 (technically before '56, but I'm sure that it was still fresh in the voters' minds). In May of '56 England also hammered a Brazil XI 4-2 that had many of the future Sweden '58 WC-winners in the line-up while Sir Stan gave Nilton Santos, then considered one of the TOP left-backs around, a torrid time all throughout the match. Later in the same month, England also defeated W. Germany, who were the defending WC-champions, 3-1 on Germany's home turf in Berlin. So, while Di Stefano almost certainly had the better club season, Sir Stan almost definitely had the better year at international level.

On the other point of International success, he was also immensely unlucky. He lost his very peak years (23 - 31) to the war, but more importantly had to deal with stupid English International selection committee. In the '50 WC Stan was left out of the England vs USA match that would've almost certainly guaranteed England moving on to the 2nd rd. had England won the match. This was an oversight by the ISC, who was actually a comm. of one.

In the '58 WC qualifiers Sir Stan played a big role in getting England to Sweden '58. Then he was left off the tournament roster by the ISC along with Nat Lofthouse AND John Atyeo. All of this was AFTER England had lost so many key players from the tragic Munich air crash. Put Roger Byrne, Duncan Edwards & Taylor back in that '58 England side, Johnny Haynes running the show in midfield with Finney & Sir Stan on both flanks & a choice between the likes of Atyeo, Lofthouse &/or Taylor up front & there's a very good chance that Sir Stan gets his WC-winners medal in '58. There was no Euro at that time as well to make an impact, it was WC or nothing.
 
It's very hard to compare Dzajic playing on the left in the 70s with Sir Stan playing at his prime on the right in the 30-40s.

Both are legendary players but Dzajic was a better scorer.
 
UNPICKED-formation-tactics.png


Bargains of the Round: Conti (10m), Hansen (14m), Gordillo (10m). Similar alternatives were getting traded for much more.
 
Tuppet said:
As for bargains, not to beat my own drum or anything, I find it amazing how underrated Sir Stan is. The fact that I got him uncontested was something I did not account for, I just nominated him and was sure he'll go for higher price, It even threw off my budget and restricted me to have only 14 players.

Seeing at the older drafts, he is not even picked in some of the all time drafts, that is amazing, when as a winger only Best and Garrincha are close to him. I get that he works in a very fixed position, still he is an all time great. Any other draft junkies care to shed a light on this ?
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He's had a few outings. Brwned had a decent team with Giggs and Matthews on the flanks once. Best and Garrincha apart, I don't think there is anyone who is considered a notch above him on the right flank (unless you put Messi there). He's proven himself against some of the best full-backs of all time. Which all-time drafts did he not make?

To be honest I think he generally gets his fair dues. It's Tom Finney who is typically under-rated given the majority of players from that era appear to have rated the Preston plumber higher than Stan.
 
I thought the legacy player had to play all the games and it was mandatory to play with a youth player in each round.

I was about to pick Dybala for my last pick given the fact that only mazhar was in a position to challenge me. It could have been an exciting transaction for an amount inferior to 15m.

The idea was to offer 2 options:

- OPTION A: one team with Areola as a GK if I play against a team with a youth GK
- OPTION B: one team with Dybala as a youth player if my opponent plays with a senior GK.

That is why, I have taken a senior player for my last pick.

Fortunately, Tuppet will play with a 'youth GK' so we won't have 'controversies' regarding the GK advantage/disadvantage.

Not the right thread to have interesting debates regarding players involved in the upcoming games imho.
 
Gio said:
Bargains of the Round: Conti (10m), Hansen (14m), Gordillo (10m). Similar alternatives were getting traded for much more.
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No love for Perfumo? It may very well be my United bias but I rate him higher than Hansen and he was even cheaper.

Plus if you consider how much Ruggeri went for, when Perfumo is more often considered a better partner for Passarella in Argie's XI


Pretty happy with Koeman too, especially considering that he was literally the first bid anyone made when all still had their full budgets, but there were better deals later.
 
harms said:
No love for Perfumo? It may very well be my United bias but I rate him higher than Hansen and he was even cheaper.

Plus if you consider how much Ruggeri went for, when Perfumo is more often considered a better partner for Passarella in Argie's XI


Pretty happy with Koeman too, especially considering that he was literally the first bid anyone made when all still had their full budgets, but there were better deals later.
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Yeah I was going to add Perfumo to my list but forgot.

Edit - Obviously it all depends on how each player gets used to determine how the value stacks up. Some of the defenders were overpriced, but for example you can see the instant complementarity in a Scirea/Ruggeri pairing which probably makes it money well spent.
 
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Downcast said:
I thought the legacy player had to play all the games and it was mandatory to play with a youth player in each round.
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Nay. Only R1.

Still, if you had the budget for it, getting in both a GK and an outfield player (youth players, I mean), did make some sense - for the reason you suggest.
 
harms said:
No love for Perfumo? It may very well be my United bias but I rate him higher than Hansen and he was even cheaper.

Plus if you consider how much Ruggeri went for, when Perfumo is more often considered a better partner for Passarella in Argie's XI

Pretty happy with Koeman too, especially considering that he was literally the first bid anyone made when all still had their full budgets, but there were better deals later.
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I understand the 3 best Argentinian central defenders are Passarella, Perfumo and Ruggeri.

Perfumo was in my short-list but it was too early to start a bidding war with you given the fact I've paid Ruggeri at a high price few hours ago. Each team has made some fantastic transactions.

Chesterlestreet said:
Nay. Only R1.

Still, if you had the budget for it, getting in both a GK and an outfield player (youth players, I mean), did make some sense - for the reason you suggest.
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Yeah, but as I thought Brown would play all the games, I hadn't tried to replace him.

With 14m, I had 2 possibilities:

a. find the sub of a legacy player who will play one game only then
b. acquire a youth player who will play only 1 game and I know 6-7 teams have a youth GK.
 
Erico - Fontaine
Ribery- F. Albert - Beckham
Netto - Blanchflower
Byrne - Wright - P. Janes
Zamora
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Nay. Only R1.

Still, if you had the budget for it, getting in both a GK and an outfield player (youth players, I mean), did make some sense - for the reason you suggest.
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I found it surprising that you picked up a keeper given that you took De Gea.

Not to bring again the keeper debate but with a GOAT defence in front of him surely De Gea won't look out of sorts even in the final.

I had to take Dasaev if I'm to continue in the next stages, but De Gea(although not as good yet as the top keepers) should be just fine.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Not to bring again the keeper debate but with a GOAT defence in front of him surely De Gea won't look out of sorts even in the final.
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Probably not - but he hasn't done nearly enough on the big stage, nor been around long enough, to be considered an all-time great.

Getting a GK in wasn't a priority, of course, but since I had the budget for it after having secured the basics - well, there you are.

Plus, if I go through, I now have a possible injury situation covered (keepers can get injured too), which is actually quite useful: The latter strikes me as a real pain in the arse - having to blow one of your reinforcement picks on a GK, I mean.
 
Physiocrat said:
@Tuppet
@harms @mazhar13 @Gio

With all the winger chat who would you put as your top five out and out left and right wingers?
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Right:
Garrincha
Jairzinho
Matthews
Figo
Conti? Not sure about the fifth

HM: Johnstone, Hamrin, Robben

Left:
Dzajic
Czibor
Gento
Nedved (a bit of a stretch to call him a pure winger maybe)
Giggs

HM: Ribery, Keizer, Rensenbrink

Excluded Best, Finney and others because I don't think that they are archetypical wingers. Nedved and Rebsenbrink are on the edge.

The all-time pool of pure wingers is really poor
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Plus, if I go through, I now have a possible injury situation covered (keepers can get injured too), which is actually quite useful: The latter strikes me as a real pain in the arse - having to blow one of your reinforcement picks on a GK, I mean.
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That was my intention as well, but in the end I decided that one more player will be more useful in reducing the chance of Messi/Suarez getting injured
 
harms said:
Right:
Garrincha
Jairzinho
Matthews
Figo
Conti? Not sure about the fifth

HM: Johnstone, Hamrin, Robben

Left:
Dzajic
Czibor
Gento
Nedved (a bit of a stretch to call him a pure winger maybe)
Giggs

HM: Ribery, Keizer, Rensenbrink

Excluded Best, Finney and others because I don't think that they are archetypical wingers. Nedved and Rebsenbrink are on the edge.

The all-time pool of pure wingers is really poor
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No love for Jinky ?!
 
Tuppet said:
Because most of independent authorities like IFFHS, world soccer magazine etc seem to rank Matthews much higher in their rankings.
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Those rankings are problematic, though. The IFFHS one (which is vote based, AFAIK) clearly includes all sorts of factors - some of which are not relevant if what you want is an idea about peak level over a reasonable period (say 3-5 seasons): Roger Milla, to make the most obvious example, is extremely highly rated - above the likes of Baresi, Figueroa, Facchetti, Masopust, Rummenigge, etc. Which is only justifiable if you take factors like longevity, general "legend" status, regional importance (being a key figure in African football history) - and so forth - into consideration.
 
harms said:
Right:
Garrincha
Jairzinho
Matthews
Figo
Conti? Not sure about the fifth

HM: Johnstone, Hamrin, Robben

Left:
Dzajic
Czibor
Gento
Nedved (a bit of a stretch to call him a pure winger maybe)
Giggs

HM: Ribery, Keizer, Rensenbrink

Excluded Best, Finney and others because I don't think that they are archetypical wingers. Nedved and Rebsenbrink are on the edge.

The all-time pool of pure wingers is really poor
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Wasn't Jairzinho more of a wide attacker?

Also I think @Annahnomoss argued that Figo was really a wide midfielder who needed the support of a full-back. I'd have to go back and watch some more of him although that isn't my memory of Figo.

But yes, the GOAT pure winger pool is depressing small.
 
Physiocrat said:
Wasn't Jairzinho more of a wide attacker?

Also I think @Annahnomoss argued that Figo was really a wide midfielder who needed the support of a full-back. I'd have to go back and watch some more of him although that isn't my memory of Figo.

But yes, the GOAT pure winger pool is depressing small.
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@Annahnomoss is wrong with the greatest of respect. Researching him recently since my pick.. the guys a beast of an orthodox winger when he's at Barcelona especially. Dominates the flank.. keeps ball close control and takes people round the outside for fun. So disagree.
 
Sun 24th - DavidG vs skizzo/pat
Mon 25th -
Tue 26th - Chesterlestreet vs marty1968/RedTiger && Enigma / Mazhar
Wed 27th - joga vs Invictus
Thu 28th - Downcast vs Tuppet
Fri 29th -
Sat 30th - ctp vs P-Nut0712
 
Sun 24th - DavidG vs skizzo/pat
Mon 25th -
Tue 26th - Chesterlestreet vs marty1968/RedTiger && Enigma / Mazhar
Wed 27th - joga vs Invictus
Thu 28th - Downcast vs Tuppet
Fri 29th -
Sat 30th - ctp vs P-Nut0712 & raees vs sjor
 
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