The beginning of the end... (the original board vetoed Mourinho's transfer wish list thread)

I think we're pretty fecked as a club now. When Ed Woodward is acting as some sort of DoF, there's something very wrong.

The reason we're in this mess is because he allowed it to happen. Looking at just the signings he's made, he allowed LVG to bring in a load of dross. He signed fecking Schweinsteiger and then wants to talk about the long term? The targets Jose apparently laid out, yes some were close to 30, but have so much more quality than what Woodward bought for LVG.

I just don't understand Woodward's thinking on this one at all. It seems as though he's acted solely on his own opinion. I mean, playing devil's advocate a bit here, but who's to say that Maguire couldn't become a top class CB? Woodward doesn't know that. So how can he decide that Varane, who I rate, is worth £100m but Maguire isn't worth £65 or whatever? There have been more obscure players turn out brilliant than Harry Maguire. Vidic, for example.

I suspect that this comes more down to superstar names and glamour. It's all about the marketing and his own personal image.
 
This is Crazy, Ed has now started a war of words with Jose.

The only loosers here are the fans, shame the club seems to forget about us unless its when they want our cash.
 
I'm feeling a lot more encouraged having read the reports from the BBC and The Guardian. We've been portrayed as the bumbling idiots of the transfer window by the media over the last week or two with the implication being that we've gone on a desperation fuelled bidding spree in order to get a signing over the line. These reports debunk those myths, at the very least.

More pertinently though, it shows there is a long-term vision at the club that goes beyond Mourinho (and this isn't me having a dig). There have been so many complaints about the lack of direction and continuity in the transfer market under our last three managers and this stance proves we aren't completely useless in that regard. It isn't worth sacrificing on quality to fulfil a perceived need, especially in this volatile market so I'm glad we didn't bow to that pressure. That's not to say I'm completely happy with the state of the squad but it certainly beats spending a fortune on a player who will be next on the scrap heap in a year's time.
 
bucky said:
Whilst I mostly agree, I think it's also understandable wanting a new CB. None of ours are anywhere near Ferdinand, Vidic or Stam.

Edit: Or Terry, Carvalho, Sergio Ramos, Varane and Lucio for that matter.
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We could use a class defender, i agree. But it's some way down the priority list imo. We still have Bailly who looks very talented, Lindelof who showed a bit of class towards the end of last season and in the WC, and Smalling who is a pretty good defender. It's an issue, but not as big as the other positions mentioned.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Different times tho, mate.

Just look at the CB's and their level given the age. Young CB's lack experience and are really hard to break into top sides that require a lot of concentration and to be at high level all the time.

Jose's teams have always based on a solid backline, it's where it starts. He recalled Jorge Costa from loan at Porto, bought Carvalho at Chelsea, Lucio at Inter, Carvalho at Real and converted Ramos as CB. All experienced choices and players he's comfortable working with.

Having an experienced CB who you trust is vital for Jose. He doesn't trust either Smalling or Jones IMO and it's for a reason.
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Not that different from the clubs perspective mate if these rumours are anyway true.

Having an older experienced centre back is all well and good, and i agree Mourinho has usually had one. But if thats such an important part of Mourinho's philosophy then he probably should have signed one instead of Bailly and/or Lindelof. And maybe not opted to add older players like Matic and Sanchez in other areas to an already aging side.

Having a side with 7 players approaching or already over 30 would make me and possibly some at the club very nervous. When your team has that sort of age profile you are only ever one summer and managerial change away from basically having to start from scratch again team building wise. Thats what happened in 2013, too many of the key players were too old and needed replaced in a very short space of time. Ferguson had let the side age i suspect because he knew was winding down and because he had wanted his predecessor to be able to build his own side.

But United as a club need to have a strategy that is longer term and in place regardless of who the manager currently is. Having a few experienced players is always beneficial and sometimes necessary, but there has to be a balance in my opinion. We should never be in a position where we need to replace more than 2-3 key players in any summer window.
 
Skills said:
Keylor Navas is the oldest player they signed since Mourinho left (age 27). Vast majority of them were signed 21-23. Even Modric and Kroos were 24-25 respectively.

It's an awful example.
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Since Mourinho left being the caveat. You don't need to sign very many experienced players when you break the world record twice for your front 3.
 
Skills said:
There's nothing even suggesting this is anything about full backs though. It's obviously about a CB. Mourinho hasn't looked for full-back since he's been here - Andy Robertson went to Liverpool last summer uncontested, Mendy went to City. Mourinho loves Young and Valencia - and he intended them to be first choice.
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We just bought a full back. Two months ago.
 
If this has come from the Board they are just seeing what many of us have for a long while. Mourinho is obsessed with ready made older stars and is unsettling our most promising young players with his outbursts, favouritism and negative tactics - why risk losing them to support a manager who is always a short term option. The board have invested big in these young players as the future of the club. If Jose is still here next summer Martial will walk and Pogba may be agitating for a move plus whoever else gets thrown under the bus this year if things don't go to plan results wise. From a marketing perspective another year of Jose's snoozeball does the United brand no favours and will start to damage the brand if some semblance of attacking football does not return soon (it's the minimum requirement if there's to be no silverware). This will only end up in one hell of a shit storm so best it ends soon and limits the collateral damage - once this starts with Mourinho it only ends up one way - there's no winding it back. Let's bring in someone new, positive, talented and hungry and bring the positivity back to the club, fans and players.
 
El Zoido said:
This is a clear sign of tension between the club and the manager. Think we’re in for a rough season folks.
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Yep.
Wondered what the hell happened though. It just seems so sudden. They even backed him on Fellaini not that long ago.
I guess his constant public slagging was the final straw. Corporate types don't like that sort of thing.
 
Damien said:
Got no idea. Might have been the case if we were going for a formation change. With the Martial issues there's a chance Mourinho changed his mind about the attacking signing but we would have needed to have sold him first.


Issue with Alderweireld was Spurs wanting £70M for someone who'll cost £25M in a year's time and has just come off an injury that kept him out a while. Not even City would pay that if they knew he'd be coming to them the following season for the lower price.
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Most reports I saw said Spurs valued him at 50m not 70. Even Levy wouldn't try to get 70m for a 29 year old with a release clause next summer.

The owners needed to make a decision to either back Mourinho or sack him, they've done neither.
 
Enigma_87 said:
And what if Jose wanted to play 3 CB's at the back, compared to last season? It isn't his job to identify targets or line up.

It isn't just Toby there were around 5 CB's that he briefed we turned our noses on. Hell even Boateng is better than either Jones or Smalling - not being a donkey with the ball.
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And we clearly weren't willing to pay over the odds for those players on the list. Which happens all the time with every club. He might not identify targets, coach them or line them up, but he is in charge of the money we spend.
 
shaky said:
The money isn't going to get saved up for a rainy day. It's going right in the shareholder's pockets. The Glazers are adding an incredible amount of money to their own private wealth every year off the back of the Man Utd brand. They should absolutely be reinvesting a huge chunk of it into the squad each season. Man Utd should be shopping for players from Harrods, not raking around in the Lidl bargain bin just because it's better value.
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They've already paid themselves dividens. The budget was there to spend whichs means it's money already being allotted. Just because you have money doesn't mean you have to overpay.
 
I can completely see the point about paying silly money for older players, and I can see the point about paying big for world class players. What bothers me though is that even with that in mind, Woodward chose not to purchase anyone. There were plenty of options in most positions who would improve our team but he chose not to go there. That to me means that either he doesn't really mean it, or that our scouting network isn't up to snuff. Or that this is all posturing and the money was never there.

If it was about getting Mourinho out we wouldn't have given him a new contract. Perhaps it's about getting him to show that he can get the most out of the players he's got (instead of pushing them out). None of it _really_ makes sense though, and it feels like this is going to be a very odd season.
 
So who is the football man that can tell Jose what he needs and doesn't need?
Thats shambolic, a step away from forcing signings on him.
If you don't back Jose then sack him, shitty briefings aren't going to cover your ass on this Ed.
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
We could use a class defender, i agree. But it's some way down the priority list imo. We still have Bailly who looks very talented, Lindelof who showed a bit of class towards the end of last season and in the WC, and Smalling who is a pretty good defender. It's an issue, but not as big as the other positions mentioned.
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Again, I mostly agree. But I'd love us to sign Pavard or Skriniar. Or Both.
 
Obviously been briefed by the club in an attempt to point the blame squarely at Mourinho, says a lot about how quite a few board members view Mourinho.
 
That sounds like bullshit, to be honest. The board has used Jose's targets as a scapegoat in order to justify a very poor transfer window. They didn't want to spend and are happy with the last results.

Don't tell me that people like Fred or Dalot are franchise-tier players, because they aren't.
 
Revan said:
LVG targeted Di Maria, Falcao, Schweinsteiger which are comparable with Jose's list.

Club should have a long term vision and the manager should build his plans over it, not the manager having a short term vision and the club fullfilling it.
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I highly doubt any of them were LVG's signings. They were all opportunistic signings made by woodward when their agents presented it to him.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Woodward is a clown largely due to the manager choices but he can't sign players the manager doesn't want. Mourinho was dead set on signing a centre half which would have cost a tonne of money.
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But surely we needed a RW and LB more?
in my opinion if we had a top LB and Rw the need for a world class CB would be much less, instead we are left with a disjointed dysfunctional attack and nothing coming from the right wing as usual
 
What did Ed expect when he hired Jose? To buy top quality potential youth and build a team for the future?
 
ravi2 said:
But surely we needed a RW and LB more?
in my opinion if we had a top LB and Rw the need for a world class CB would be much less, instead we are left with a disjointed dysfunctional attack
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I definitely agree we needed a Right winger and left back more than a CB but it's still up to Mourinho on which positions to strengthen.
 
If the Board had issues with the targets Jose gave them why did they not sit down and talk to him and explain?

Seems to me that Jose gave a list of targets, had faith Ed would get the deal done whilst Ed did sweet FA for the whole summer.

Then after deadline day Ed comes out with the media leaks.

Why not just say to Jose, nope not happening, try again? Seems like Jose was led up the garden path and made to believe Ed would get at least 1 of his targets.
 
Ramshock said:
Music to the agenda posters ears.

We need a DoF regardless.
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We need a DoF but Ed would never agree to anything that lessens his power.
Ed is making a lot of money in the short term but damaging the brand in the long term
 
Woodward + Moyes = shit
Woodward + LvG = shit
Woodward + Mourinho = 2 cups, an 81 point finish and clearly heading in the right direction

The common denominator in our shit seasons was Ed.

Jose should be the one given the benefit of the doubt in transfer dealings as things stand.

A veto from somebody with a track record of poor purchases is the wrong move by the club.

If Woodward were that much of a football genius, he wouldn't have bought Di Maria or Schneiderlin. It belies logic to let him be the final word on our transfers.
 
jymufc20 said:
I don't understand why Woodward would brief the press over this, surely this will just cause animosity.
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Thing is it was coming. Jose has directed the vitriol of the fans towards the direction of 'Mr Woodward' all summer and I doubt he wasn't aware what he was doing. They've been on course for a collision. Many could predict the club would begin telling its own side once the window closed
 
Vanya said:
So what is the choice? Do we wait for Varane to become available or should we get the next best available defender ? I think the latter is more logical. To let the club fall behind it's competitors is more fiscally irresponsible in the long term than spending big money on a world class defender who's 30 yrs old.
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You find the right balance, I don't think you should only hold out for world class players but you have to be fiscally responsible and not spend a significant amount for a player that may not provide the right return.

Still Woodward has deserved criticism for a long time now. The lack of long term planning from him is abysmal.
 
How can people not see this as a positive?

Woodward had a meeting with Perez regarding Verane for £100m (or even Bale). He is WILLING to pay the money for top players. Let's be honest, all the names we have been linked with Willan, Maguire, Toby etc are not better than our best players in these positions.

Woodward wants to buy players who are better than players currently have, not better than our 2nd/3rd choice CBs. There is a difference.
Think about it, would Barcelona/Real Madrid/Bayern Munich buy any of the players we have been linked with?

Why try to go over the odds on players who are not world class? Fans want to buy the best players, but willing for the club to pay over the odds for non-world class players?

I would rather wait a season for 1 world class player, rather than replace average players with slightly better players.

Mourinho has more than capable players, don't be fooled.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
I definitely agree we needed a Right winger and left back more than a CB but it's still up to Mourinho on which positions to strengthen.
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I cannot comprehend that Jose would think we need a CB more than a LB or RW
My guess is Ed didnt want to spend the money to get either Sandro or Willan , if it was Marcelo and Bale he may have spent the money

It makes no sense Ed making footballing decisions for MUFC...he is a fecking investment banker
 
What did they expect?

Everyone knows that Mourinho wants a team of 28/29 year old veterans who play with a chip on the shoulder and are 'warriors'

If they want a long term manager who will grow young talent and will look for 22/23 year old gems who he can grow and mould. Then Jose isn't that guy and they should move him on OR they back Jose to the hilt.
 
Skills said:
Lets see how much game time he gets.
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We will see. I expect more than most here do. But this...
Skills said:
There's nothing even suggesting this is anything about full backs though. It's obviously about a CB. Mourinho hasn't looked for full-back since he's been here - Andy Robertson went to Liverpool last summer uncontested, Mendy went to City. Mourinho loves Young and Valencia - and he intended them to be first choice.
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...is quite obviously bollocks.
 
DownRiver said:
How can people not see this as a positive?

Woodward had a meeting with Perez regarding Verane for £100m (or even Bale). He is WILLING to pay the money for top players. Let's be honest, all the names we have been linked with Willan, Maguire, Toby etc are not better than our best players in these positions.

Woodward wants to buy players who are better than players currently have, not better than our 2nd/3rd choice CBs. There is a difference.
Think about it, would Barcelona/Real Madrid/Bayern Munich buy any of the players we have been linked with?

Why try to go over the odds on players who are not world class? Fans want to buy the best players, but willing for the club to pay over the odds for non-world class players?

I would rather wait a season for 1 world class player, rather than replace average players with slightly better players.

Mourinho has more than capable players, don't be fooled.
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What the feck are you talking about
Willan is an actual RW...when last have we had a RW?

and are you seriously saying Toby isnt better than Jones, Smalling or Rojo?

You are the one being fooled
 
pocco said:
I think we're pretty fecked as a club now. When Ed Woodward is acting as some sort of DoF, there's something very wrong.

The reason we're in this mess is because he allowed it to happen. Looking at just the signings he's made, he allowed LVG to bring in a load of dross. He signed fecking Schweinsteiger and then wants to talk about the long term? The targets Jose apparently laid out, yes some were close to 30, but have so much more quality than what Woodward bought for LVG.

I just don't understand Woodward's thinking on this one at all. It seems as though he's acted solely on his own opinion. I mean, playing devil's advocate a bit here, but who's to say that Maguire couldn't become a top class CB? Woodward doesn't know that. So how can he decide that Varane, who I rate, is worth £100m but Maguire isn't worth £65 or whatever? There have been more obscure players turn out brilliant than Harry Maguire. Vidic, for example.

I suspect that this comes more down to superstar names and glamour. It's all about the marketing and his own personal image.
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How can people say this and then don't ask why:

1) Mourinho spent 70-80m on Bailly and Lindeloff but it was Smalling and Jones starting when they were fit.
2) Pogba was all time world record but at some stage last season he was getting benched.
3) Mourinho signed Mkhitaryan as our No.10 then consistently criticized him and eventually put him outside of the entire squad for a few matches.
4) Gave a new contract to Fellaini.
5) Sanchez played like crap when he joined us.

If LVG signed crap, then so did Mourinho. And when in the starting XI we already have 4 players at age 29 or above (5 if you consider Mata in our starting XI, 6 if you count Smalling who has birthday on November) how wise is to sign another 2. Especially if they cost (if rumors are to be believed) a shitload amount of money. So, sign Willian and Alder for circa 150m, and suddenly have 7 players in the starting eleven aged 29 or more. On other words, prepare another total revamp in the next 3 years without first finishing the current one.
 
DownRiver said:
How can people not see this as a positive?

Woodward had a meeting with Perez regarding Verane for £100m (or even Bale). He is WILLING to pay the money for top players. Let's be honest, all the names we have been linked with Willan, Maguire, Toby etc are not better than our best players in these positions.

Woodward wants to buy players who are better than players currently have, not better than our 2nd/3rd choice CBs. There is a difference.
Think about it, would Barcelona/Real Madrid/Bayern Munich buy any of the players we have been linked with?

Why try to go over the odds on players who are not world class? Fans want to buy the best players, but willing for the club to pay over the odds for non-world class players?

I would rather wait a season for 1 world class player, rather than replace average players with slightly better players.

Mourinho has more than capable players, don't be fooled.
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Are you making a serious argument that Toby isn't better than Jones/Smalling/Rojo?
 
ravi2 said:
I cannot comprehend that Jose would think we need a CB more than a LB or RW
My guess is Ed didnt want to spend the money to get either Sandro or Willan , if it was Marcelo and Bale he may have spent the money

It makes no sense Ed making footballing decisions for MUFC...he is a fecking investment banker
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All reports indicate Mourinho was desperate for another centre half. From Redcafe's own twitter we can see Mourinho's quotes and views on the right wing and left back situation:






Have to be as critical on Mourinho as you are with Woodward on this transfer window. The latter has to take blame for the longer term focus of the club.
 
goin4glory said:
Ronaldo and Bale were both world record signings. If Woodward wants to break the world record and get Mbappe we'd be OK with it, some chance of that ever happening. Madrid spent massive money on any area they needed strengthening and always targeted the best players regardless of age. Their just aren't very many CB's in world football better than Toby who we could sign since all his gum flapping about Varane is just that.
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Woodward is full of shit, he said we can do deals other clubs can dream up yet lets PSG get both Neymar and Mbappe in the same transfer window
 
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