There's a another deeper issue here with these school shootings in addition to the obvious issue. Kids with mental health issues are not getting the help they need and we all know high school can be a very toxic environment. First big problem to fix is the gun issue and the second is to get these kids help. You'll know better as to what provisions are made to deal with mental health in schools. Other than the guidance counselor are there any other programs that focuses on this?
The bad (typically gun related) things happening in America thread
- Thread starter calodo2003
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Adisa
likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt
The dad bought the kid a gun after the FBI had come to the house, asking questions...WTF!
Dr. Dwayne
Self proclaimed tagline king.
This is the mentality that any kind of gun control in the US has to overcome.The dad bought the kid a gun after the FBI had come to the house, asking questions...WTF!
RedDevil@84
Full Member
It is not just the father. In an ideal world, the family would be flagged for future gun purchases and the moment a new gun was bought, a second visit by FBI was due.This is the mentality that any kind of gun control in the US has to overcome.
Scarlett Dracarys
( . Y . )
Families who lost loved ones need to go after every single person who could have prevented this from happening. Put pressure on the organizations who are allowing the NRA to have free reign.The dad bought the kid a gun after the FBI had come to the house, asking questions...WTF!
Dr. Dwayne
Self proclaimed tagline king.
A whole lot of gun control would need to be implemented to be able to do that sort of thing.It is not just the father. In an ideal world, the family would be flagged for future gun purchases and the moment a new gun was bought, a second visit by FBI was due.
For whatever reason, these people abandon all common sense when it comes to guns. They're fecking dangerous and when you have them you have a duty to your community to ensure they are kept and used safely and responsibly.
RedDevil@84
Full Member
It is not about common sense. It is just pure business. The gun lobby gives money to politicians to not have gun laws, weaken them if they exist, not have records maintained at state and federal level, remove mental health checks etc etc. It also gives money to the media to brainwash the public that having loads of military style guns is essential and patriotic and constitutional and threaten them that without guns and by having strict rules to attain guns, people would get murdered in their homes by lunatics.For whatever reason, these people abandon all common sense when it comes to guns
It is well designed corruption to make sure that the gun making companies remain super rich.
Red in STL
Turnover not takeover
Those people are politicians, they are the ones who create the laws, or in this case, don't create the laws that are needed to stop a lot of these shootingFamilies who lost loved ones need to go after every single person who could have prevented this from happening. Put pressure on the organizations who are allowing the NRA to have free reign.
Dr. Dwayne
Self proclaimed tagline king.
No there's a lot of common sense stuff that is ignored with fatal consequences.It is not about common sense. It is just pure business. The gun lobby gives money to politicians to not have gun laws, weaken them if they exist, not have records maintained at state and federal level, remove mental health checks etc etc. It also gives money to the media to brainwash the public that having loads of military style guns is essential and patriotic and constitutional and threaten them that without guns and by having strict rules to attain guns, people would get murdered in their homes by lunatics.
It is well designed corruption to make sure that the gun making companies remain super rich.
Like not buying your 14 year old an AR-15 and allowing them unsupervised access to it.
Or leaving a loaded pistol under your pillow all day with toddlers in the home instead of keeping the gun in a safe. Easy things at the individual level that would save lives but for the oddball refusal to accept that guns are dangerous and should be kept and handled safely. (Gun manufacturers even put this stuff on materials and warnings in the box with the guns).
Not really... and the counselors are so absurdly outnumbered that it's basically pointless. I think the current mental health to student ratio in South Carolina is 1:650... which is an improvement, it used to be around 1:1000 & there are still schools without a single mental health counselor at all.There's a another deeper issue here with these school shootings in addition to the obvious issue. Kids with mental health issues are not getting the help they need and we all know high school can be a very toxic environment. First big problem to fix is the gun issue and the second is to get these kids help. You'll know better as to what provisions are made to deal with mental health in schools. Other than the guidance counselor are there any other programs that focuses on this?
Scarlett Dracarys
( . Y . )
The world needs to send help. We're fecked.Not really... and the counselors are so absurdly outnumbered that it's basically pointless. I think the current mental health to student ratio in South Carolina is 1:650... which is an improvement, it used to be around 1:1000 & there are still schools without a single mental health counselor at all.
WI_Red
Redcafes Most Rested
My mom was a school psychologist for a few decades before she burnt out and went back to teaching (masters students who were part of the Teach for America program). She was the only psych in the whole school district for the elementary level and was working insane hours trying to stay above water. The thing is, the majority of her time was spent driving around LA to perform IDP's and ensure the students with IDP's were getting what they needed. She had almost no time to be spent on the mental health needs of her 1,000's of students. She has the energy and resolve of 100 people, so the fact she burnt out was shocking and worrying for the profession (and the kids) as a whole.
Red in STL
Turnover not takeover
How long have US schools had counselors?Not really... and the counselors are so absurdly outnumbered that it's basically pointless. I think the current mental health to student ratio in South Carolina is 1:650... which is an improvement, it used to be around 1:1000 & there are still schools without a single mental health counselor at all.
I went to the school in the UK and to the best of my knowledge there were no counselors in any school I went to, no idea what the position is nowadays though
The holy trinity 68
The disparager
Question for the Americans on here, what are the main arguments that the pro gun crowd use, to justify guns being legal?
Dr. Dwayne
Self proclaimed tagline king.
I'm not an American but the right to keep and bear arms is enshrined in their constitution.Question for the Americans on here, what are the main arguments that the pro gun crowd use, to justify guns being legal?
The holy trinity 68
The disparager
I'm not an American but the right to keep and bear arms is enshrined in their constitution.
Yeah but that is a weak argument as to why they should still be legal after so many killings with guns.
RedDevil@84
Full Member
My gun didn't kill anyone. If someobody else's did, that's not my problem. I have right to bear arms as per the constitution.Yeah but that is a weak argument as to why they should still be legal after so many killings with guns.
Individualism is a key feature of American society. This creeps into almost every discussion. Be it about universal healthcare or everyone wearing masks to stop spread Covid.
Dr. Dwayne
Self proclaimed tagline king.
Not saying I agree with it but it's far from a weak argument. The country's entire system is based around the Constitution and most things protected within it can be difficult to change.Yeah but that is a weak argument as to why they should still be legal after so many killings with guns.
Due to its relatively iron clad status as afforded by the Constitution a better approach is to define what "shall not be infringed" means because that element is most frequently quoted in opposition to any sort of gun control.
For many it means no restrictions of any kind, which is ridiculous. If you're an upstanding citizen a background check is no infringement. Keeping your guns locked up is no infringement on your right to bear them, etc.
Wing Attack Plan R
Full Member
I'm glad they are charging the father with culpability for these murders. It's beyond irresponsible. This area the shooting happened in, Winder, Georgia, is Trump territory. This father took his son out deer hunting and said "it was the greatest day of his life" when he was able to smear his son's cheeks with deer blood. I think part of the Republican problem with guns is that they want to have long guns for "sport" and hunting and view the ownership of said guns as a manly act. Then going from there to wanting guns specifically designed for killing people (like the AR-15, Glock pistols, etc.) is even more about being manly and self-righteous.
The change has to be a coordinated attack from all sides: charge the parents for not locking up their guns, demythologize the hunting "tradition", overturn Citizens United to get money out of politics, stack the Supreme Court with reasonable judges who will engage a discussion of the "well regulated militia" part of the Second Amendment, regulate guns the way we regulate cars (insurance, written tests, physical tests, safety inspections, yearly fees).
First step is to break the back of the gerrymandered minority-rule system. We have to end the Electoral College. Then get money out of politics. Then end gerrymandering. Then enact Supreme Court reforms. And THEN we can do something.
The change has to be a coordinated attack from all sides: charge the parents for not locking up their guns, demythologize the hunting "tradition", overturn Citizens United to get money out of politics, stack the Supreme Court with reasonable judges who will engage a discussion of the "well regulated militia" part of the Second Amendment, regulate guns the way we regulate cars (insurance, written tests, physical tests, safety inspections, yearly fees).
First step is to break the back of the gerrymandered minority-rule system. We have to end the Electoral College. Then get money out of politics. Then end gerrymandering. Then enact Supreme Court reforms. And THEN we can do something.
Wing Attack Plan R
Full Member
...in a well regulated militia. That part needs to be enforced.My gun didn't kill anyone. If someobody else's did, that's not my problem. I have right to bear arms as per the constitution.
Individualism is a key feature of American society. This creeps into almost every discussion. Be it about universal healthcare or everyone wearing masks to stop spread Covid.
Red in STL
Turnover not takeover
Unforunately the SC ruled on that one in the 1930's and I don't see it being changed...in a well regulated militia. That part needs to be enforced.
Firstly it's an amendment which in itself says it can be changed.
I think I've seen every single argument for guns, from the ridiculous to the valid.
@Dr. Dwayne here has probably always been the most consistent and reasonable as is seen by his valid points made a few posts above and throughout this thread, and forum. Although I don't always agree, I respect his views because he's always able to back them up. Ultimately concessions will have to be made as a complete ban is not going to happen.
The trouble with this is as others here have said, it's a futile argument until money & lobbying is eliminated or until political will becomes strong enough for it to change.
The arguments I bet nearly all of us have seen or heard or indeed had are batshit. Cars are more dangerous, it's not the gun it's who is holding it, there's no such thing as gun violence, it's my constitutional right to defend myself against a corrupt and tyrannical government. If that were the case surely they would have done so against Bidens or Obama's? More good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns, more guns are the answer. If we give up our guns the bad guys will still have them. Arm teachers, have more security at schools. The latest one is all mass shooters are transgenders and liberal. All those arguments are piss weak and easy to counter but many just won't accept even the slightest argument against, let alone facts and will just evade or throw nonsense back in retort.
No matter what you come back with they, like MAGA nuts will always have an answer for excuse, and rarely, if ever will it make sense or be logical. It goes to the absolute core of US history and culture and that is what is going to be so difficult to change. Education from an early age is another key to breaking this issue, but it's doubtful you will get that in schools in many States.
There is a huge percentage of responsibile gun owners out there that absolutely agree with restrictions and law change, just not necessarily a complete ban. Sadly they always get lumped in with the more extreme ones, and attacked and branded the same. Ultimately even if you don't agree with guns being legal, they are, and by attacking every owner you lose the argument pretty quickly.
A complete ban is never.going to happen, not in anyone heres lifetime anyway, so you have to work towards what is possible. An assault rifle ban has happened before, magazine sizes can be restricted, tougher background checks, even limits on the amount of firearms owned. Or certain guns only allowed to be kept at gun clubs or ranges. But going after a flat out ban in the USA isn't going to work. So you have to go back again and work at what could be achieved and work with sensible owners to help get that across the line.
I go back every single time to the Jim Jeffries sketch on guns, as I honestly think it's by far the best way to explain the whole for and against argument and is still as relevant and on point today as it was when he first performed it.
At the end of the day, ya'll just like guns.
I think I've seen every single argument for guns, from the ridiculous to the valid.
@Dr. Dwayne here has probably always been the most consistent and reasonable as is seen by his valid points made a few posts above and throughout this thread, and forum. Although I don't always agree, I respect his views because he's always able to back them up. Ultimately concessions will have to be made as a complete ban is not going to happen.
The trouble with this is as others here have said, it's a futile argument until money & lobbying is eliminated or until political will becomes strong enough for it to change.
The arguments I bet nearly all of us have seen or heard or indeed had are batshit. Cars are more dangerous, it's not the gun it's who is holding it, there's no such thing as gun violence, it's my constitutional right to defend myself against a corrupt and tyrannical government. If that were the case surely they would have done so against Bidens or Obama's? More good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns, more guns are the answer. If we give up our guns the bad guys will still have them. Arm teachers, have more security at schools. The latest one is all mass shooters are transgenders and liberal. All those arguments are piss weak and easy to counter but many just won't accept even the slightest argument against, let alone facts and will just evade or throw nonsense back in retort.
No matter what you come back with they, like MAGA nuts will always have an answer for excuse, and rarely, if ever will it make sense or be logical. It goes to the absolute core of US history and culture and that is what is going to be so difficult to change. Education from an early age is another key to breaking this issue, but it's doubtful you will get that in schools in many States.
There is a huge percentage of responsibile gun owners out there that absolutely agree with restrictions and law change, just not necessarily a complete ban. Sadly they always get lumped in with the more extreme ones, and attacked and branded the same. Ultimately even if you don't agree with guns being legal, they are, and by attacking every owner you lose the argument pretty quickly.
A complete ban is never.going to happen, not in anyone heres lifetime anyway, so you have to work towards what is possible. An assault rifle ban has happened before, magazine sizes can be restricted, tougher background checks, even limits on the amount of firearms owned. Or certain guns only allowed to be kept at gun clubs or ranges. But going after a flat out ban in the USA isn't going to work. So you have to go back again and work at what could be achieved and work with sensible owners to help get that across the line.
I go back every single time to the Jim Jeffries sketch on guns, as I honestly think it's by far the best way to explain the whole for and against argument and is still as relevant and on point today as it was when he first performed it.
At the end of the day, ya'll just like guns.
WI_Red
Redcafes Most Rested
Only 30% of us own gunsFirstly it's an amendment which in itself says it can be changed.
I think I've seen every single argument for guns, from the ridiculous to the valid.
@Dr. Dwayne here has probably always been the most consistent and reasonable as is seen by his valid points made a few posts above and throughout this thread, and forum. Although I don't always agree, I respect his views because he's always able to back them up. Ultimately concessions will have to be made as a complete ban is not going to happen.
The trouble with this is as others here have said, it's a futile argument until money & lobbying is eliminated or until political will becomes strong enough for it to change.
The arguments I bet nearly all of us have seen or heard or indeed had are batshit. Cars are more dangerous, it's not the gun it's who is holding it, there's no such thing as gun violence, it's my constitutional right to defend myself against a corrupt and tyrannical government. If that were the case surely they would have done so against Bidens or Obama's? More good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns, more guns are the answer. If we give up our guns the bad guys will still have them. Arm teachers, have more security at schools. The latest one is all mass shooters are transgenders and liberal. All those arguments are piss weak and easy to counter but many just won't accept even the slightest argument against, let alone facts and will just evade or throw nonsense back in retort.
No matter what you come back with they, like MAGA nuts will always have an answer for excuse, and rarely, if ever will it make sense or be logical. It goes to the absolute core of US history and culture and that is what is going to be so difficult to change. Education from an early age is another key to breaking this issue, but it's doubtful you will get that in schools in many States.
There is a huge percentage of responsibile gun owners out there that absolutely agree with restrictions and law change, just not necessarily a complete ban. Sadly they always get lumped in with the more extreme ones, and attacked and branded the same. Ultimately even if you don't agree with guns being legal, they are, and by attacking every owner you lose the argument pretty quickly.
A complete ban is never.going to happen, not in anyone heres lifetime anyway, so you have to work towards what is possible. An assault rifle ban has happened before, magazine sizes can be restricted, tougher background checks, even limits on the amount of firearms owned. Or certain guns only allowed to be kept at gun clubs or ranges. But going after a flat out ban in the USA isn't going to work. So you have to go back again and work at what could be achieved and work with sensible owners to help get that across the line.
I go back every single time to the Jim Jeffries sketch on guns, as I honestly think it's by far the best way to explain the whole for and against argument and is still as relevant and on point today as it was when he first performed it.
At the end of the day, ya'll just like guns.
Wing Attack Plan R
Full Member
A lot has changed since the 1930s.Unforunately the SC ruled on that one in the 1930's and I don't see it being changed
Wing Attack Plan R
Full Member
Amendments can be amended, by definition. This SCOTUS has done away with stare decis, so a new court can revisit this issue and rule in line with the actual text and meaning of the second amendment.
I meant the gun owners, and that was a line from Jim Jeffries. I know how strongly many feel, you especially, I'm the same, although I don't have the pain or tragedy of losing friends and relatives to guns as you do. It's just after seeing this go on for decades and it getting increasingly worse and the reaction by so many is more about protecting their guns than any sympathy for the families or understanding they contribute to the problem. Feck, yesterday in Georgia is already being called a false flag.Only 30% of us own guns
I think a more pragmatic approach is the only way rather than fighting for the all out ban that many want. If it's going to be achieved it's going to have to be done piece by piece. And surely preventing as many deaths or mass shooting events as possible before a total ban is even a possibility is better than nothing happening at all?
The idea first started being implemented in the 1890s - 1910sHow long have US schools had counselors?
I went to the school in the UK and to the best of my knowledge there were no counselors in any school I went to, no idea what the position is nowadays though
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ntal-Health-Services-in-the-United-States.pdf
Eyepopper
Lowering the tone since 2006
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2006
- Messages
- 67,308
Quality stuff there.
I actually had to catalogue all 150ish books on my classroom shelves this year & submit the list to the state department.
Eyepopper
Lowering the tone since 2006
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2006
- Messages
- 67,308
It's a pity access to books wasn't enshrined in your constitution when it was written.Quality stuff there.
I actually had to catalogue all 150ish books on my classroom shelves this year & submit the list to the state department.
Particularly when the definition of a book hasn't really changed since, "arms" however can be quite different now to what it was then.
That’s generally been interpreted to fall under the 1st AmendmentIt's a pity access to books wasn't enshrined in your constitution when it was written.
Particularly when the definition of a book hasn't really changed since, "arms" however can be quite different now to what it was then.
That’s generally been interpreted to fall under the 1st Amendment
Ahhh freedom of speech, just not what is written in books that we don't like. Or said by others we don't like, or said about something we like or don't like but it applies to you! And don't elect those Commies on the left as they will take away your rights yet want you to be taught stuff we don't agree with so we will ban that shit too and replace it with shit we want everyone to be taught.
It's fecking batshit. Nothing but projection & hypocrisy.
Scarlett Dracarys
( . Y . )
They can still keep their guns but why do they need assault weapons?I'm not an American but the right to keep and bear arms is enshrined in their constitution.
They can still keep their guns but why do they need assault weapons?
Because they can't shoot deer with a single shot bolt action rifle and scope. They are too fast and need a semi-automatic rifle with a larger capacity mag to ensure the deer gets it. Also, because of the threat of a tyrannical government and they will need those guns to shoot at the drones and Apache gunships.
RedDevil@84
Full Member
The very idea of facing a govt that controls the world's mightiest army that has a yearly budget that exceeds next 10 nations armed forces budget with your guns and automatic weapons is so laughable. How can someone use that argument with a straight face is beyond me.Because they can't shoot deer with a single shot bolt action rifle and scope. They are too fast and need a semi-automatic rifle with a larger capacity mag to ensure the deer gets it. Also, because of the threat of a tyrannical government and they will need those guns to shoot at the drones and Apache gunships.
Dr. Dwayne
Self proclaimed tagline king.
They can still keep their guns but why do they need assault weapons?
I wouldn't get too caught up in the terminology. Magazine capacity is a bigger factor than how a gun looks or what operating system it uses.
Because they can't shoot deer with a single shot bolt action rifle and scope. They are too fast and need a semi-automatic rifle with a larger capacity mag to ensure the deer gets it. Also, because of the threat of a tyrannical government and they will need those guns to shoot at the drones and Apache gunships.
Careful now. Some people need a couple of shots and it's better if they can get those shots of as fast as possible. Do they need more than five? No, and limiting magazine capacity is another easy win.
Scarlett Dracarys
( . Y . )
Then they would sell less bullets..I wouldn't get too caught up in the terminology. Magazine capacity is a bigger factor than how a gun looks or what operating system it uses.
Careful now. Some people need a couple of shots and it's better if they can get those shots of as fast as possible. Do they need more than five? No, and limiting magazine capacity is another easy win.
Dr. Dwayne
Self proclaimed tagline king.
Heh. I can confirm that is not the case.Then they would sell less bullets..
Red in STL
Turnover not takeover
It has, but the SC isn't going to chage it anytime soon, and if Trump gets in again it'll probably be 40 years before there's another chanceA lot has changed since the 1930s.
Red in STL
Turnover not takeover
Unfortunately as it currently stands, a new court with a liberal lean is probably decades away.Amendments can be amended, by definition. This SCOTUS has done away with stare decis, so a new court can revisit this issue and rule in line with the actual text and meaning of the second amendment.
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