If they're going to appoint Ryan, I just hope they're doing it because of his genuine potential and not because of the PR nonsense that is 'continuity' (which was always an extreme reach when Moyes - a man with no connection to United - was appointed.)
The Argument for Giggs as our Next Manager
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The bolded part is absolutely true. It is a point I argued in previous pages on this thread some time ago - that managing United is a completely different ball game (excuse the pun) to most other clubs. My conclusion is different to yours however, as basically I think that Giggs is more qualified to take over than Moyes was, due to his inside knowledge etc of the club.
Giggs has been groomed for the role, he has worked under two great managers and even had a great crash course in "what not to do" under Moyes. He has extensive knowledge of the club, the players, the backroom staff, the tactics and philosophy in use, the expectations, the day to day duties of the manager.
These things do not mean Giggs is a great manager, and they do not guarantee that he will be, but I think they give him just as good a chance of succeeding at United as any of the big names being touted. He will have a vastly experienced backroom staff that he already has good relationships with, and (in theory) will inherit a strong, young team with great potential that he can tweak and add his own touches to. In short, I think that everything is being set up to give him the ideal environment to take over.
Cant disagree with much of that. As you said though, I dont think in his current role he is in a position to really establish himself in the way that you/we would like to see. The very fact that he is working under a "larger than life" manager in LVG means (I think) that he best approach is to just observe and learn everything that he possibly can, as LVG is only too happy to teach others about his philosophy etc.
Its one of those where as fans we really dont know what goes on behind the scenes - how involved is Giggs in day-to-day managerial duties? How much potential has he shown? You can take the PR stuff from ex players etc with a pinch of salt, but I really cant imagine all these United legends being so desperately eager to sabotage the club by getting Giggs appointed if he wasnt any good.
He is a well spoken man and probably smart, but it doesn't strike me like someone who can inspire others. That's something all the top managers have no matter what coaching style they implement in their teams.
When he was managing the team, he was basically trying to be Fergie, but how can he do that when he doesn't have the qualities that Fergie had? He needs to find his own style, which should be based around his strengths, but for that he needs time and experience.
It would be amazing if he could turn out to be a great manager for us, but can we really take that gamble now?
When he was managing the team, he was basically trying to be Fergie, but how can he do that when he doesn't have the qualities that Fergie had? He needs to find his own style, which should be based around his strengths, but for that he needs time and experience.
It would be amazing if he could turn out to be a great manager for us, but can we really take that gamble now?
I think the great surprise about Moyes was that he ended up being the discontinuity candidate. Ferguson certainly didn't expect Moyes to sack Phelan and the backroom staff. Giggs has the potential to deliver genuine continutity. Thats why he gets my vote.
I find it really interesting that Giggs being assistant manager at United seems to count for almost nothing for many posters. There have been some fantastic assistant managers that have gone on to achieve wonders. Bob Paisley being the obvious one, yet this argument just doesn't even get presented with Giggs.
13 PL Medals and 2 CL Medals for a start. Plus he would be a 'continuity' candidate with 3 years assistant manager experience under his belt working with a squad he had developed with the current manager. Deep down you know it makes sense, throw logic out the window for five minutes. I dare you!
Hopefully the board wont goad each other on with calls to throw logic out the window, and someone will emphasise that PL and CL winners medals mean precisely fcuk all when it comes to management, as evidenced by the complete lack of correlation between success as players and success as managers. Keane had a few medals of his own, didnt help him much. Or any of the rest of them. How many winners medals did Fergie get? he might have got one or two with Rangers, Im not sure. Mourinho didnt win dick, nor did Wenger.
Giggs adaptability from tearing the opposition right back a new one to bombing back to help the left back than being able to slot in central midfield, should hold him in good stead in his tactical awareness, plus then fact he managed to hid he was doing the dirty, must count for something.
Maybe we need to get Sky Sports to do a piece where they analyse his Football Manager coaching stats...
Can someone explain what is meant by "he knows the club"? What specifically is it about his time spent at the club that means he's significantly more likely to succeed than an outsider? I mean, he knows his way around the training ground already, and he's on first names basis with the kitchen staff at Carrington, I don't think that's going to help him win league titles as manager. I expect any response is going to be more hollow words - "he knows the infrastructure" - again, what does this even mean and how exactly does it make him more likely to bring us success than, say, Ancelotti?
All the top managers in the game are well versed in joining new clubs and settling in pretty quickly. Yet again we seem to think we're above every other club in the world and think doing things "the United way" is better than the correct way - the same outlook that landed us David Moyes.
All the top managers in the game are well versed in joining new clubs and settling in pretty quickly. Yet again we seem to think we're above every other club in the world and think doing things "the United way" is better than the correct way - the same outlook that landed us David Moyes.
TBF, Brian Kidd, Steve McClaren, Carlos Queiroz, Mike Phelan have been our most successful no2 in recent years, McClaren being the most successful manger out of the lot and he has had a mixed bag, did well at Middlesbrough and fc Tweenty but was shocking England manager and will be sacked by Newcastle before Christmas unless he can turn it around quickly.
Also people are saying being managed by SAF as a positive, what player who has been managed by SAF have go on to manage a big club?
Keane- did well to get Sunderland promoted that's as good as it got for him, he's now no2 for ROI
Bruce- FA cup final with Hull, but got them relegated to the Championship
Ince- SHOOT
Mark Hughes- best of a bad bunch doing a solid job with
Captain Marvel- best he done was saving West Brom from relegation
OGS did a great job with Molde but very bad at Cardiff
People really are scraping the barrel. Played more than 1 position in his career - would that mean anything if we were discussing other potential candidates? No, but it's Giggs, we'll think of any old reason he'll be a success here.
Its been explained, and no, its not about being on first name terms with the kitchen staff.
And the Moyes comparison is still baseless, just like it was when it was discussed this morning.
When you look at the top managers present & recent past it's hard to see one in the mould of Giggs.
Most top managers either have a fearsome side, a madcap side, or/and just exude confidence, I don't see any of those 'qualaties' in Giggs.
The only one you could maybe liken his personality towards is a Wenger, or Erikson type personality, which I'm
not sure I want.
I think the club will have major reservations about this anyway after the Moyes disaster, it would be a huge risk, and with Pep maybe been available one we don't have to take.
Most top managers either have a fearsome side, a madcap side, or/and just exude confidence, I don't see any of those 'qualaties' in Giggs.
The only one you could maybe liken his personality towards is a Wenger, or Erikson type personality, which I'm
not sure I want.
I think the club will have major reservations about this anyway after the Moyes disaster, it would be a huge risk, and with Pep maybe been available one we don't have to take.
I agree the Moyes comparisons are fairly meaningless, but then so are the Guardiola ones which people seem to be happy to make over and over again - including you in the OP:
Its been pointed out over the course of this thread why the Guardiola comparison is highly misleading. I think ALL comparisons should probably stop, Giggs represents a different case to any other appointment I can think of. He has completely different (less) experience to Moyes, but appointing him would be a different kind of lunacy altogether. And he has different (less) experience than Guardiola had.
It feels like weve come full circle in this thread (and not for the first time). The real argument for this, and there is only one that makes any sense to me, is this:
Its been pointed out over the course of this thread why the Guardiola comparison is highly misleading. I think ALL comparisons should probably stop, Giggs represents a different case to any other appointment I can think of. He has completely different (less) experience to Moyes, but appointing him would be a different kind of lunacy altogether. And he has different (less) experience than Guardiola had.
It feels like weve come full circle in this thread (and not for the first time). The real argument for this, and there is only one that makes any sense to me, is this:
Here's my biggest strike against Giggs. He has no reputation to trade on in the transfer market.
One of the key requirements for a manager of Manchester United in the modern era is to be able to attract world class player and those just below that level looking to step up. These players will ask themselves - is this the coach I need? Will he play me the way I want to be played and improve my game? What will I get as a footballer by making this person my boss?
With Guardiola, the answer is clear. With Klopp, the answer is clear. With SAF and LVG, the answer is also positive - especially for young players. Ditto Wenger. Mourinho, I'd say, is verging on being a liability in this department, which is why his days are numbered.
But with Giggs, he's a complete unknown. That in itself is reason to send him off somewhere else first and see if he can get himself that all important reputation. Without reputation, he can't compete with the top top managers.
One of the key requirements for a manager of Manchester United in the modern era is to be able to attract world class player and those just below that level looking to step up. These players will ask themselves - is this the coach I need? Will he play me the way I want to be played and improve my game? What will I get as a footballer by making this person my boss?
With Guardiola, the answer is clear. With Klopp, the answer is clear. With SAF and LVG, the answer is also positive - especially for young players. Ditto Wenger. Mourinho, I'd say, is verging on being a liability in this department, which is why his days are numbered.
But with Giggs, he's a complete unknown. That in itself is reason to send him off somewhere else first and see if he can get himself that all important reputation. Without reputation, he can't compete with the top top managers.
You don't think Giggs comes across as someone who exudes confidence? In the same way as Pep? I sure do.
No he's not a nutter or fearsome but he is a highly intelligent man. How many nutcases are in management these days? How did it work out for Keane?
There's a lot of plusses for Giggs. He's got experience of coaching having stayed with the club. He's worked under 2 very experienced but different managers in SAF and LVG. He's respected in the world of football which I think counts for a lot. He is a highly intelligent man who knows what the club is about. The size and stature of the club isn't going to surprise him like it did with Moyes LVG.
On the other hand his lack of management experience is a worry. He's not proved himself as a manager and so to step in to the top job would be a huge ask. But wasn't that the case for Pep as well?
Ultimately a lot depends on the state of the club when LVG leaves or is sacked. If it's the latter then presumably it's in a mess and so maybe it's too big a job? Personally I think regardless LVG isn't actually helping the new manager. And when he does leave they'll be as many issues to resolve as when he took over.
I think Giggs is more qualified than Moyes was.
The reason I mentioned Pep in the OP was because I believe that different managers are suited to different circumstances. I have said repeatedly that I would not trust Giggs to have taken over from Fergie, nor from Moyes, nor if LVG was sacked at the end of this season following a poor showing. I do not think Giggs is the right candidate for a major rebuilding job - I think he is the right candidate to take over a strong team from LVG in a couple of years. This doesnt mean that I think of him as someone to just "keep things ticking over" but rather that having worked under LVG, Giggs will have an excellent understanding of the system, the philosophy etc that LVG has implemented, but will also surely have his own ideas on how to add to that system, perhaps bring back a bit of the old United flair and tempo, without trying to reinvent the wheel and rebuild everything from the ground up. That is my vision of what the Giggs appointment would bring.
I am not refuting there is also a romantic argument, and I dont think a bit of romanticism is such a bad thing from time to time - we are talking about a football club that a lot of us have no actual connection to. I dont want to get into all the "losing our identity" stuff but at what point does it just basically become a case of drawing a name out of a hat to decide what team you support (due to there being so few actual differences between top clubs)?
I like the romantic side of it, but that is not my main argument, and nor would I advocate Giggs taking over based on purely romantic reasons.
What I will say, @Walrus, is that I have found this the most enjoyable and infuriating thread I have been involved in on here for a long time. I was proud when i just checked and saw that I have the second most posts in it - after you.
It is the best example of a thread I can think of in which I would love to be proven wrong. As in, if he was appointed, I would be seriously nervous. But if he proved me wrong and in 3 years he had us challenging for the title and playing great football, I would love it. It would be the best outcome possible. (Is there any other thread on this forum where the word "fairytale" has been used so much, and with such complete justification?)
My issue is that I dont think I am wrong and I dont think it would end up that way. And, at the other end of the scale, him being appointed and then failing seems to be a much more likely scenario (to cynical old me). Nestled between those outcomes at either side of the desirability scale you have the more boring and safer option of just picking someone with no connection to the club, but good, old fashioned qualifications. You know, like other clubs do. The tried and tested route.
It is the best example of a thread I can think of in which I would love to be proven wrong. As in, if he was appointed, I would be seriously nervous. But if he proved me wrong and in 3 years he had us challenging for the title and playing great football, I would love it. It would be the best outcome possible. (Is there any other thread on this forum where the word "fairytale" has been used so much, and with such complete justification?)
My issue is that I dont think I am wrong and I dont think it would end up that way. And, at the other end of the scale, him being appointed and then failing seems to be a much more likely scenario (to cynical old me). Nestled between those outcomes at either side of the desirability scale you have the more boring and safer option of just picking someone with no connection to the club, but good, old fashioned qualifications. You know, like other clubs do. The tried and tested route.
cheers, maybe I should add a "If you liked this, you will love these threads..." to the OP 
If Giggs does get appointed, then it will certainly be an interesting time for our club, for better or worse.
A point a few miss it seems. Being an assistant manager at United doesn't make a success as a manager at all. Just look at all the examples you posted. Rene and Phelan can't even get jobs as managers and they were more successful as coaches than Giggs is.
Not a fan of Giggs being the next manager at all.
The prospect of Giggs as our next manager frightens me. If you look at the profile of today's top managers, they are often master tacticians, football scientists with an obsession for stats and data. It simply takes more than great motivational speeches to win the big prizes in this day and age.
The only way this could work is if Giggs was paired with an excellent team of experienced and highly intelligent coaches, sports scientists and scouts. On his own merits he is totally unproven and a far bigger gamble than even David Moyes - despite his undisputed influence in the dressing room.
The only way this could work is if Giggs was paired with an excellent team of experienced and highly intelligent coaches, sports scientists and scouts. On his own merits he is totally unproven and a far bigger gamble than even David Moyes - despite his undisputed influence in the dressing room.
That still doesn't address my original point about Paisley. Liverpool dominated for years by promoting from within. IF we had the right assistant manager at the time Ferguson left we should have done the same. We didn't that is history now. But hopefully Giggs will be that candiate at the end of next season. I can't wait for the meltdown on here
. And I can't wait to really get behind a manager we can say is truly one of our own. And a born winner to boot.What?
That's nothing to do with being a manager.
Nope. But it has everything to do with being a winner. The boy Giggsy is a born winner, has his coaching badges, is the current assistant manager at United and has the endorsement of Fergie and LVG. Thats enough for me. Of course all of this is a moot point as without the endorsement of the Caf Woodward will never appoint him
Keane won the championship at his first attempt and is about co-lead Ireland to first place in a group that includes Germany. What are you on about?
Also, van Gaal was Leo Beenhakker's assistant at Ajax from 1988-91, then went to onto achieve great success at Ajax when he was promoted from assistant manager to manager.That still doesn't address my original point about Paisley. Liverpool dominated for years by promoting from within. IF we had the right assistant manager at the time Ferguson left we should have done the same. We didn't that is history now. But hopefully Giggs will be that candiate at the end of next season. I can't wait for the meltdown on here
There are loads of examples. Folks just seem to remember the assistants that fail more than those that succeed.
You really dont know what Im on about?
He's not co-leading. He's assistant leading. That means someone else has the final say in decisions, which makes a big difference.
Things were very promising at the start for Keane but they went south pretty quickly. Having Sunderland in the relegation zone in December and then coming 15th in his full season with Ipswich before then being sacked again mid way through the next season.
You see how when jobs come in the PL and Keane is not linked with them? Its because he isnt a very good manager. That's what Im on about.
It was meant to be a joke!
Ah right. Sorry I didnt pick up on that.
What are you on about? Ireland is 4 points off the top of the table in 3rd place. You really believe they are going to thrash Germany tomorrow? I hate to burst your bubble but that's wishful thinking.
To be fair, while there's plenty of reason why Giggs should go elsewhere and prove himself, it's not exactly a perfect solution. And not just because doing well with a smaller club won't guarantee success with United.
Just for arguments sake I'll go back to the highly unusual Guardiola example. If Barcelona wanted him to prove himself first, he'd have gone to Gijon or something like that, tried to implement his passing game and quite possibly fall miserably and never get another job. Now that wouldn't be very clever, considering what he ended up doing. Maybe he can only do that with the best clubs and the best squads, but it's still impressive.
While I don't want Giggs to get the job, a lot of it would depend on the available managers at the time of the appointment. If we can get a big, experienced, SUITABLE name, then good. But if the bigger ones are all tied up, like in 2013, then I wouldn't rule it out. I'd prefer him over another Moyes.
Just for arguments sake I'll go back to the highly unusual Guardiola example. If Barcelona wanted him to prove himself first, he'd have gone to Gijon or something like that, tried to implement his passing game and quite possibly fall miserably and never get another job. Now that wouldn't be very clever, considering what he ended up doing. Maybe he can only do that with the best clubs and the best squads, but it's still impressive.
While I don't want Giggs to get the job, a lot of it would depend on the available managers at the time of the appointment. If we can get a big, experienced, SUITABLE name, then good. But if the bigger ones are all tied up, like in 2013, then I wouldn't rule it out. I'd prefer him over another Moyes.
So let him do the reserves job then, like Guardiola did. Let him fulfill his insatiable appetite for learning by travelling the world, learning about different styles of management. It feels like Guardiola was champing at the bit for management. I am no expert on this, the most illuminating thing I have read about this was from @Invictus (check out post #516 and either side of it if you want to know more detail about the rise of Guardiola), and I dont know if he was positioning himself for the Barca job specifically, or if he was just a natural born manager waiting for an opportunity of some sort and things just fell into place. But I dont get the impression there was this same sense of entitlement. If that job hadnt come up he would have done something else because that is what he was interested in doing. With Giggs it just feels like he is sitting around waiting for things to happen, assuming that he is earning the necessary qualifications by osmosis, just by sitting next to some great managers.
did not several of the players come out with comments that he was very 'Fergie' like during the games he was in charge?
not saying that is sufficient.
In any case, the owners are not just going to hand over the reigns. There will be a thorough process..especially after the Moyes feck up.
not saying that is sufficient.
In any case, the owners are not just going to hand over the reigns. There will be a thorough process..especially after the Moyes feck up.
Guardiola was managing Barca B. Effectively a Championship side and was doing well. He wasnt a complete novice.
When you accept yourself that you have to not think logically to want Giggs as manager surely you can see that it's a horrible idea?
Probably because it tells us almost nothing about his suitability as manager. Being assistant isn't anything like being in charge as some of Fergie's assistants have discovered.
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