Will Giggsy stick around and be number 2 for our next boss if he doesnt get the nod for the hot seat after LVG or will he head off and manage elsewhere ?
The Argument for Giggs as our Next Manager
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He is obviously a confident guy because he was a top players and a good looking chap, so he's used to things going his way, but carrying that off as manager is a different matter, I don't see him like Pep at all, Pep has this mad side to him, a real energy that is simmering beneath the cool exterior, in Giggs I don't see that at all.
I'm not saying it defiantly won't work, but for a club like United it would be fool hardy to take the risk on a untried manager, especially if Pep is available.
If we pass up the option on Pep like we did Mourinho then it could well come back and bite us (again), especially if Pep goes to Chelsea or City in the mean time.
I would love to know how anyone knows this...
And with everything I've ever seen with Giggs in the general media he sounds like he's borderline brain dead.
I mean you'd have to be close to it to think you could get away with shagging your brothers wife.
Yeah, I have said before but for me, my support of Giggs as the next boss hinges on LVG having a reasonably successful tenure, retiring in 2-3 years and leaving the next manager [Giggs] with a strong foundation and a young team to work with.
The romance of it hugely appealing for me. But I also don't buy this argument that you can create a checklist and screen the manager on the basis of some set of 'logical' criteria. Succeeding at United needs something a bit more....special. No cv would be good enough on paper for me. Getting behind one of our own just appeals to me as a fan. That really is the appeal of Giggs for me.
Being the manager for United is a lot like being in love. Nobody can tell you you're the manager of Man United, you just know.
I'm proposing the logic of the Giggs appointment could be a revaltion. Kind of 'outside the box' thinking. As I said above, the CV approach doesn't guarantee success and, arguably doesn't even increase the odds of success. A Giggs appointment could have something unique and magical that a more "obvious" appointment ever would have. I think most of us would love to see Giggs succeed. We'd probably enjoy that more than a Klopp or a Pep. Why? Because of the romance, you can't buy that.
I agree with Rory on this one FWIW - there is no guarantee of success. Managing United is very different to managing most clubs. I discussed previously in this thread with Invictus, that even the "top tier" managers like Mourinho, Ancelotti and Pep have some question marks on their CVs. For example Ancelotti has very rarely stayed at a club for more than 2-3 years, and Mourinho has got absolutely no track record for bringing through youth or building a team - but rather a track record for being able to guarantee short term success if given a blank chequebook.
As another poster said on the last page or so, if we are looking only for managers who are 100% qualified to manage United, then really the only one who meets the criteria is Ferguson. United have a different setup and structure to a lot of top clubs, we trust the manager with far more power than most clubs, and as an indirect result of this, we will also typically look for long term appointments (LVG was something of an exception as we needed someone to repair the damage from the Moyes reign).
For my money, if Giggs is given the job then it is because those inside the club with far greater knowledge, believe he is the right person for it. The fact that he is being talked about by senior figures inside the club as the next manager, should be a pretty big clue to the fans that he isnt completely brain dead, and obviously has some talent and potential for the role. It isnt a guarantee of success, but nor is appointing any of the other "big name" managers. The potential upside with Giggs however, is far greater than with the others - that we could have our manager sorted for the next 25+ years. Which other candidate could we say that about? If you want to talk about changing the entire model and structure of our club to appointing a new manager every few years then fine, but that change of mindset would represent a huge change for the club and perhaps deserves another thread for itself. This is all before we take into account any romanticism as well.
I doubt it. Can't see anyone else willing to 'babysit' Giggs like LVG is doing. Can you imagine Pep or someone else putting up with that? Quite frankly I don't know how LVG does it. Having someone working that closely with you who has his eye on the top job, plus having his mates in the media criticising you whether you deserve it or not - does not seem very healthy to me. I really struggle to see anyone else putting up with that imo.
Besides, most importantly, it would not be healthy for Giggs - he needs to challenge himself outside of the United 'bubble' or 'environment' - if he's serious about managing on the whole (which I have serious doubts about as I mentioned earlier).
I find it impressive that you manage to translate that sort of thing into a negative. LVG has spoken plenty of times about how he has a good relationship with Giggs, that Giggs has provided a great bridge between him and the players, that he has talent for the job etc...and yet you paint this as "babysitting"?
Alex Ferguson wasn't chosen because he had a bit more .....'special'. He was logically selected on the basis of what he had proven MANAGING in the Scottish League, it was his achievements that were 'special' and those included breaking the Old Firm hold on the league and defeating the mighty Madrid to win the Cup Winners Cup. That is a CV that screams hire me. The Boot Room philosophy you are advocating is ideal for the eighties where failure simply meant the loss of bragging rights in the summer and everyone relied on their youth. In this day and age one wrong move, be it a wrong managerial choice or failure to strengthen from a position of strength, can set you back years and cost you big money - money which we need if we are to compete against the oil propelled plastics.
I doubt Giggs will want to be assistant to another manager.
But it is curious the owners told van Gaal to take him on as the assistant. This is why many think he will be the next manager.
But it is curious the owners told van Gaal to take him on as the assistant. This is why many think he will be the next manager.
Those inside the club with far greater knowledge also brought us David Moyes. Maybe their decision making is tilted a bit too far on ethos and identity rather than experience and capacity for success.
What do you expect LVG to say in public?
Why does everyone take everything at face value? You've got to be political to some extent in an environment like that.For your information, they had a Q & A thingy with some fans and LVG & Giggs - someone asked LVG what he thought about the criticism he receives from Neville and Co. His reply to the fan was that it made him 'feel sick' because 'they should know better of how things work' (or words to that effect). Now logically, if someone worked so closely with me and had their friends slaughtering at every turn, it would only be natural that I look suspiciously at this person. Yet, irrespective of any misgivings, you cannot sack them because one condition of you getting the job was to have this person as your 'assistant'. Hence my comment on 'babysitting'.
You are misinterpreting what I said there. I did not say that those inside the club are infallible, but simply that when it comes to judging the merits of someone else who is also inside the club, they should have a far better idea than we do as fans.
Moyes was not part of Manchester United for the previous 20 years to being appointed, there would be no "inside knowledge" to speak of with that appointment. With Giggs however, those who have worked with him for years should have a very good idea of his strengths, weaknesses and capabilities.
What do you expect LVG to say in public?
For your information, they had a Q & A thingy with some fans and LVG & Giggs - someone asked LVG what he thought about the criticism he receives from Neville and Co. His reply to the fan was that it made him 'feel sick' because 'they should know better of how things work' (or words to that effect). Now logically, if someone worked so closely with me and had their friends slaughtering at every turn, it would only be natural that I look suspiciously at this person. Yet, irrespective of any misgivings, you cannot sack them because one condition of you getting the job was to have this person as your 'assistant'. Hence my comment on 'babysitting'.
I do understand the need for politics, but you are taking what appears to be a pretty positive/normal situation and relationship, and painting it in a completely different light. Unless you have some intricate knowledge of what is going on behind the scenes then you cant possibly be in a position to make those sorts of assumptions, and therefore it simply comes across as needless bias.
How about a managerial face off/death match?
It's based too much on romantic and outdated ideals that no longer exist.
Or it could that this was a compromise that Woodward made with say SAF, so as not to have too much opposition from him and whomever else, in appointing who he wanted? Remember the clamour after Moyes was sacked for Giggs to be manager? Obviously Woody had no intention of going with inexperience so soon after Moyes. I'm pretty sure SAF for e.g. would have been disappointed, so I can totally see this as a compromise of sorts. Woody pissing him off too much would probably result in a media war that I doubt Ed would be able to win, especially in the aftermath of his first, not so successful year on the football side of things.
It's not a normal situation though, when a manager comes in he usually brings his own staff, even Moyes did this, but LvG had to take Giggs on by all accounts, whether he wanted to or not.
Agreed. Hiring Moyes was bad enough, it would be shameful to repeat the same mistake twice by appointing Giggs. Maybe the Glazers will want a greater say in it this time, which may take the decision out of the hands of the likes of Sir Bobby, SAF, LvG, and Woodward.
But on the other hand, you also don't have any specific inside knowledge so what's your point? This is a board of opinions in case you hadn't noticed. I gave my personal opinion based on what has been happening and the impression the different parties give me. I may be right or wrong, but it's what I believe at this moment in time, unless someone gives me irrefutable proof that things are otherwise.
good points.
Nah, United's history is steeped in romance, why can't the future be too? It's a massive part of United's inherent appeal.
With all due respect, Moyes is not Giggs!
The whole "forged in the Glasgow furnaces" thing they used to compare Moyes to Fergie and paint this romantic falsehood image of him should surely have served as notice that the football world has changed. I don't like or trust the Glazers but I just cannot imagine them being stupid enough to have shit the bed once, then got a guy in to clean it up via spending a fortune, just to go and shit in it again with another stupid appointment of a manager with even less credentials.
You're right. Moyes has managed a club before.
Because the past is just that, things change and move on, you adapt or fall behind, that is reality, romanticism isn't, it's merely for things like the Wigan FA Cup win, not PL and CL winners.
I have absolutely no problem with Giggs becoming our next manager, and the sooner the better.
I believe he would take us back to playing the football Manchester United should be playing - football played with pace and power, as opposed to the dismal brand of football Van Gaal has us playing.
I believe he would take us back to playing the football Manchester United should be playing - football played with pace and power, as opposed to the dismal brand of football Van Gaal has us playing.
In short, we can't afford to gift Giggsy the job on a technicality, because he was best mates with Fergie.
Fair enough, but based on what exactly ? He's never managed before.
Exactly, the PL is just far to competitive to risk the club in the hands of a guy who has zero experience purely because he's a club legend and it would be like a Hollywood movie.
United's Romantic tradition isn't based on managerial appointments though.
It's Moyes all over again.
It'll end up with people saying "who the hell thought he had the experience for this huge job?". Hindsight will be 20/20.
So has Giggs!!!!
No, but his appointment would be a continuation of that theme by the role he has played in the history of the club, a la class of 92 etc
Yes, it would be another season miserably just waiting for the penny to finally drop all round and for the club to go back to square one and start the rebuild all over again with a proper manager.
Every other fan thinks that managing their club presents different challenges to any other job but there is a select list of managers who are big hitters have shown that they will win everywhere they go. Carlo Ancelotti, for one, has won stuff everywherw he has gone but has been unfortunate to work for stupid owners. If he came here he would relish the freedom, relative security and power he'd get and the fans would fall in love with him because he is one of the few gentlemen in the game. He'd fit in like a glove plus he'd bring in a few new ideas. All this, which made Ferguson call him, was proven whilst MANAGING!
What senior figures, holding nothing more than ceremonial posts, say is meaningless if it is not backed by the real muscle behind the whole operation. The other thing is those people in the know are the same who sold the Moyes idea a couple of years back, if they could fail so spectacularly then what's to say they aren't wrong again? It is also possible that they are seeing what they want to see because first they decided that it's Giggs they want and are now pulling strawman arguments to convince those who matter that this is the right call.
Another thing is you can't really design the length of an employer - employee relationship, you make up as you go and if it doesn't work out you go your seperate ways. The continuity breeds success mantra that Sirs Alex and Bobby were selling is a load of bullshit, Madrid have gone through as many managers as a whore has gone through different cocks but our achievements pale in comparison to theirs despite the fact that we've spent fifty years under two managers, albeit not continuously. Like I said, a twenty five year tenure is earned both by the manager and the club - we couldn't have enjoyed those years under Fergie if we didn't have the means to fund his ambition and he couldn't have lasted that long if he wasn't s trophy machine, Giggs certainly won't if he can not deliver gold.
Nobody with a brain should want Giggs as our next manager.
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