The Argument for Giggs as our Next Manager

[itso 7]

Well like you say, modernising our structure may be a good idea, however I don't see any signs of that happening, and with the current structure I do not feel that we are well equipped to deal with changing manager every few years.

Then we ought to brace ourselves for years of managerial sacking and expensive rebuilds until we either run out of money or we hit the jackpot with a Sir Alex/Busby v 2.0. As I said in an earlier post the chances of finding another Sir Alex are very slim in these circumstances of big TV deals and Oil fueled rivals, we can easily lose our spot on the food chain.

What we need to do is restructure and get an ex player to come in as DOF. We should have a situation where the manager does not play such a massive driving role for us so that when shit hits the fan it's much easier to to hit the reset button.

 

[Walrus]

Then we ought to brace ourselves for years of managerial sacking and expensive rebuilds until we either run out of money or we hit the jackpot with a Sir Alex/Busby v 2.0. As I said in an earlier post the chances of finding another Sir Alex are very slim in these circumstances of big TV deals and Oil fueled rivals, we can easily lose our spot on the food chain.

What we need to do is restructure and get an ex player to come in as DOF. We should have a situation where the manager does not play such a massive driving role for us so that when shit hits the fan it's much easier to to hit the reset button.

But then in terms of this discussion it is arguably moving the goalposts a little. I can't see us introducing a DoF or similar when we already have Woodward heavily involved in the transfer process etc.

 

[itso 7]

But then in terms of this discussion it is arguably moving the goalposts a little. I can't see us introducing a DoF or similar when we already have Woodward heavily involved in the transfer process etc.

It is relevant to this discussion because one of the reasons a Ryan Giggs appointment is being considered is this expectation that he will stay for the long haul. Well do you dispute the fact that it's virtually impossible to plan or manipulate the circumstances to ensure such a long tenure? So appointing Giggs looking for this is misguided is all I'm saying.

 

[Walrus]

It is relevant to this discussion because one of the reasons a Ryan Giggs appointment is being considered is this expectation that he will stay for the long haul. Well do you dispute the fact that it's virtually impossible to plan or manipulate the circumstances to ensure such a long tenure? So appointing Giggs looking for this is misguided is all I'm saying.

Again, not an expectation that he will be here for ages, but its a possibility. Even so, the "continuity" argument in general remains one of those in favour of Giggs.

 

[itso 7]

Again, not an expectation that he will be here for ages, but its a possibility. Even so, the "continuity" argument in general remains one of those in favour of Giggs.

In as much as it is also a possibility that he will bomb and be run out of the club in twelve months or that an entirely different candidate will settle here just like Fergie did when he had no previous connection with the club. And this continuity you speak of what evidence do you have besides an assumption that he will try to build on Van Gaal's foundations? The majority of his former teammates do not agree with the direction that we have taken under this regime, what are the chances that he feels the same way and will most likely tear down whatever has been built in favour of the only way he has known for the majority of his adult life?What do we know of his philosophy given that he hasn't had the chance to build or exhibit one. What do we know of his ability to transform his vision/philosophy into an actionable style? These are the questions that a track record answers. With Giggs everything is conjecture, educated guesses or romantic delusions and that's not a way to run a club that is in fact a billion pound enterprise competently.

 

[Walrus]

In as much as it is also a possibility that he will bomb and be run out of the club in twelve months or that an entirely different candidate will settle here just like Fergie did when he had no previous connection with the club. And this continuity you speak of what evidence do you have besides an assumption that he will try to build on Van Gaal's foundations? The majority of his former teammates do not agree with the direction that we have taken under this regime, what are the chances that he feels the same way and will most likely tear down whatever has been built in favour of the only way he has known for the majority of his adult life?What do we know of his philosophy given that he hasn't had the chance to build or exhibit one. What do we know of his ability to transform his vision/philosophy into an actionable style? These are the questions that a track record answers. With Giggs everything is conjecture, educated guesses or romantic delusions and that's not a way to run a club that is in fact a billion pound enterprise competently.

If he bombs out, then as you said, he will simply be out of the club in 12 months. Not ideal of course, but not a long term disaster.

I think it is a realistic assumption that Giggs wouldnt try to tear everything down and rebuild the team/philosophy from scratch. He is being mentored and groomed by LVG, and should at this stage have a been good understanding of the system and philosophy. That doesnt mean he needs to mimic it completely - I would fully expect Giggs to have come up with his own ideas, tweaks and changes he might make to the current system to improve our play, perhaps to bring back some elements of Ferugon's style.

As you say - we dont know his philosophy yet because he hasnt had the chance to build one. I fully agree, and that is surely why he is not going to be making massive wholesale changes, but rather would continue with what LVG has started.

 

[red_devil83]

Actually in cold hard terms no it isnt.
Being a great player doesnt mean you will be a good manager. The experience gained thoughout the playing career on the training pitch and in games does deserve merit. Being a Legend doesnt. George Best was a club Legend but I doubt anybody would have wanted him as our manager.
Respect is earned and even though there is a certain level of respect because of a playing career that can be quickly eroded if the coaching is poor. You are only as good as your previous results. Previous triumphs as a player dont mean much relative to being a manager. Being steeped in club history means very little. Fergie wasnt steeped in club history when he arrived.
You are using romantic ideals as your argument. Romantic ideals when making the choice blur the judgement. Many of us fell in behind Fergies decision to choose Moyes because of the romantic idea that Fergie would get it right first pop.

I said they were merits, not guarantees. They are undoubted merits. Maybe they only account for 1-3% each of what's required that doesn't mean they don't count.

Any true United fan would choose to have all these attributes in our manager if we knew they were going to be a success.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

I almost want Giggs to be manager just for the sake of curiosity on how he'd approach it.

On whether he would stick with Van Gaal's possession based concept after 3 years of learning and developing from it or throw it straight in the bin and venture back to Sir Alex's fast paced wide play based football which he grew up/performed under.

 

[Walrus]

I watched The Class of '92 film last night for the first time. I must say that it actually reaffirmed my belief that Giggs potentially has what it takes to be a manager - the qualities and characteristics that the other players spoke of, and simply his presence and demeanour. He was in many ways the leader of the group despite not being the vocal, outspoken type - there are many styles of leadership after all.

 

[ravelston]

I wish people would put to rest the notion that you can design a long term managerial stint. Fergie stayed here because after our transformation was complete (circa 91-92) he was successful enough and we were rich enough to fund his incredible hunger for success. We were in a way able to satisfy each other's needs and by the time he hit a rough patch (2003-06) he was pretty much unsackable and even that rough patch included a couple of 2nd place finishes, a solitary 3rd place finish, an FA Cup win and a runners up finish (so much for a rough patch). So in light of this I would like us to consider the ability to deliver success (trophies and attractive football) as paramount in the person specification. The ability and inclination to stick around is a useless point if the candidate can not meet the most important deliverables, imo.

The rough spell was actually three 3rd place finishes in four years.

 

[Cheesy]

The rough spell was actually three 3rd place finishes in four years.

Nah, the rough patch was more 03-06 where we had two 3rd places finishes and a 2nd placed one. We finished 3rd in 01/02, but managed to make up for that with a title win in 2003.

 

[Red Dreams]

I'm changing my mind. I would trust Giggs to bring back attacking flair to our game. Yes. He would bring many of the class of 92 back and it would work, because they know the club from the inside and as supporters. Most importantly, they have absorbed SAF's way of doing things.

 

[Adebesi]

I hadn't thought about that, but... You're right. They would have seen the master at work. I guess, just as any student that is taught by a world class teacher must inevitably become a world class teacher himself, there can be no doubt Giggs has it in him.

And he knows the club far better than anyone else could. As in, he knows where everything is. If there is one person we can trust to find stuff - the spare kits, that toilet people always forget about where there's always toilet paper, the best place to get reception on T Mobile - it is Giggs.

He would help ensure we always continue to do things the way we have done it in the past to ensure we never evolve, never allow ourselves to be polluted by modern ways. The old ways are best.

 

[All 3 United]

My concern is the players that most on here new weren't good enough were heavily utilised during the early to mid part of the LVG reign. That can only have been on Giggs' say so, all of these players have now been moved on. The fact he had seen these players week in week out and yet still recommended them over others, is either short sighted or he was blinded by loyalty, either way it's a concern.

 

[Xaviesta]

You can observe Pavarotti for 20-25 years doing his thing, doesn't mean you'll be anywhere near as good as him.

 

[Ixion]

Mike Phelan was an ex-United player who spent time as Fergie's number two, would have provided continuity etc. I don't think anyone wanted him as manager.

 

[Someone]

Other than being a club legend, which in itself doesn't make you a good manager, i don't see any benefits from giving him a chance to manage the club.

We've learned a harsh lesson with moyes, and in this extremely competitive nature of the premier league, choosing the wrong manager could result in few years of transition, because you aren't guaranteed CL football anymore, if you just blink someone else will take your spot.

I like the romance of it all, but if i'm being honest, there's nothing about his personalty or demeanor that screams a top coach to me, one the reasons fergie never named him a captain.

The club is bigger than giggs, and history is full of club legends failing miserably at their beloved clubs, pep is the exception.

 

[Stack]

Other than being a club legend, which in itself doesn't make you a good manager, i don't see any benefits from giving him a chance to manage the club.

We've learned a harsh lesson with moyes, and in this extremely competitive nature of the premier league, choosing the wrong manager could result in few years of transition, because you aren't guaranteed CL football anymore, if you just blink someone else will take your spot.

I like the romance of it all, but if i'm being honest, there's nothing about his personalty or demeanor that screams a top coach to me, one the reasons fergie never named him a captain.

The club is bigger than giggs, and history is full of club legends failing miserably at their beloved clubs, pep is the exception.

Neither personality nor demeanor are indicators of coaching ability.

I would prefer that Giggs got some hands on experience for a few years running a team himself before becoming our manager.

 

[Amir]

Mike Phelan was an ex-United player who spent time as Fergie's number two, would have provided continuity etc. I don't think anyone wanted him as manager.

This. Knowing the club or working for Fergie doesn't make you a quality manager.

 

[FC Ronaldo]

Mike Phelan was an ex-United player who spent time as Fergie's number two, would have provided continuity etc. I don't think anyone wanted him as manager.

This. Knowing the club or working for Fergie doesn't make you a quality manager.

Completely agree.

There is also the added experience needed to play a style that is suitable to the league at a given time too. What worked yesterday and what works today are not guarantees of what will work tomorrow.

Giggs should be given the reserve team job if possible and gain experience of making in game decisions. The results shouldn't be the barometer in that exercise but the process and experience would be much needed.

The romantic in me would love Giggs for our legacy and traditional values but the head can't see past Guardiola. We should do all we can to bring in Pep.

 

[Xaviesta]

Completely agree.

There is also the added experience needed to play a style that is suitable to the league at a given time too. What worked yesterday and what works today are not guarantees of what will work tomorrow.

The romantic in me would love Giggs for our legacy and traditional values but the head can't see past Guardiola. We should do all we can to bring in Pep.

The Mirror has a story linking united with Guardiola to be their manager next season. They were saying while van Gaal has indicated Giggs will be his successor, but United's hierarchy isn't so sure. Take it all with a pinch of salt.

 

[RedRover]

Completely agree.

There is also the added experience needed to play a style that is suitable to the league at a given time too. What worked yesterday and what works today are not guarantees of what will work tomorrow.

Giggs should be given the reserve team job if possible and gain experience of making in game decisions. The results shouldn't be the barometer in that exercise but the process and experience would be much needed.

The romantic in me would love Giggs for our legacy and traditional values but the head can't see past Guardiola. We should do all we can to bring in Pep.

I think the Wales job would be a good fit, if he can combine it with duties at the club.

Managing is more than tactics - the pressure, managing players and the press. They're all skills he'll have to learn.

 

[SirAF]

The Mirror has a story linking united with Guardiola to be their manager next season. They were saying while van Gaal has indicated Giggs will be his successor, but United's hierarchy isn't so sure. Take it all with a pinch of salt.

The Mirror is full of shit, but I would honestly love to see Guardiola continue the process which LvG has started.

 

[acnumber9]

My concern is the players that most on here new weren't good enough were heavily utilised during the early to mid part of the LVG reign. That can only have been on Giggs' say so, all of these players have now been moved on. The fact he had seen these players week in week out and yet still recommended them over others, is either short sighted or he was blinded by loyalty, either way it's a concern.

Which players were these?

 

[Walrus]

Mike Phelan was an ex-United player who spent time as Fergie's number two, would have provided continuity etc. I don't think anyone wanted him as manager.

This is just a straw man argument that has been brought up a few times in this thread. Ryan Giggs and Mike Phelan are very different propositions, and just as importantly, the circumstances are completely different now, to any point where Phelan may have been considered.

I like the romance of it all, but if i'm being honest, there's nothing about his personalty or demeanor that screams a top coach to me, one the reasons fergie never named him a captain.

I watched The Class of 92 the other day and one thing I found interesting was what some of the others said about Giggs, when talking about personality etc. Basically that he is one of those types who can be sharing a laugh one minute, but looking you dead in the eye the next, and that he is very good at judging people and how to deal with them.

Obviously you would take this sort of thing with a pinch of salt, but on the "personality" front I think we as fans only see one side of Giggs (and most other players) which is the one that comes out on the pitch.

 

[Ixion]

This is just a straw man argument that has been brought up a few times in this thread. Ryan Giggs and Mike Phelan are very different propositions, and just as importantly, the circumstances are completely different now, to any point where Phelan may have been considered.

Ex-player, played under Sir Alex, United number 2, continuity. All these things are pointed to when people say Giggs should take over and they literally all apply to Phelan. What makes you think Giggs would be a better manager than him?

Giggs was number two to Moyes when we finished 7th and to LVG when we finished 4th. We could easily finish only 4th again this year with Giggs as number two. What exactly is Giggs showing to make people think he's going to be a world class manager? I'm pretty sure it's only taken as long as it has to ship out all the deadwood because Giggs was mates with them. The Class of 92 stuff shows how much he tries to look after his mates, it's not what you want from a United manager.

 

[Walrus]

Ex-player, played under Sir Alex, United number 2, continuity. All these things are pointed to when people say Giggs should take over and they literally all apply to Phelan. What makes you think Giggs would be a better manager than him?

Giggs was number two to Moyes when we finished 7th and to LVG when we finished 4th. We could easily finish only 4th again this year with Giggs as number two. What exactly is Giggs showing to make people think he's going to be a world class manager? I'm pretty sure it's only taken as long as it has to ship out all the deadwood because Giggs was mates with them.

Giggs is being groomed for the job, has worked under not just Ferguson but also LVG, who has openly stated that he is building a team for the next manager (one of my points in the OP). The circumstances and context now is completely different to at any point where Phelan may have been considered, like I said before.

Your last sentence is a pretty baseless and bizarre assumption as well.

 

[Ixion]

Giggs is being groomed for the job, has worked under not just Ferguson but also LVG.

Stuart Pearce was supposed to work under Eriksson and Capello to be the next England manager...

 

[Cheesy]

Giggs is being groomed for the job, has worked under not just Ferguson but also LVG, who has openly stated that he is building a team for the next manager (one of my points in the OP). The circumstances and context now is completely different to at any point where Phelan may have been considered, like I said before.

Your last sentence is a pretty baseless and bizarre assumption as well.

This means absolutely nothing though if he turns out to be a poor manager. Again, as I've been saying for a while, almost all of the positives of Giggs being manager, and the reasons for giving it to him, rest on him actually being a good manager. And we have absolutely no evidence that he will be thus far.

 

[Walrus]

This means absolutely nothing though if he turns out to be a poor manager.

Well no shit. But being groomed and mentored for a specific job should infer some sort of increased chance of being successful in that job, compared to if you aren't, right?

 

[dannyrhinos89]

Giggs need to go manage another club, yes he knows the United way but that's isn't good enough to automatically be manager. Look at how bad Keane and ole solskjaer were. If we were playing awful it would be slightly awkward having to sack a club legend.


Still want Pep, surely he get bored of winning everything at bayern.

 

[itso 7]

Giggs is being groomed for the job, has worked under not just Ferguson but also LVG, who has openly stated that he is building a team for the next manager (one of my points in the OP). The circumstances and context now is completely different to at any point where Phelan may have been considered, like I said before.

Your last sentence is a pretty baseless and bizarre assumption as well.

Giggs did not work under Ferguson he played under him, big difference to Phelan who actually spent over a decade as first team coach and assistant manager. So it's rather dishonest to talk up Giggs' time under Van Gaal, something he could have got as a political appointment to keep the base happy, whilst talking down Phelan's credentials - when Phelan worked his way up from the youth team. In fact, in coaching terms and the success by association that you are big on, Phelan beats Giggs hands down. What he has are playing credentials which when you look at Van Gaal, Ferguson, Mourinho and Wenger against Shearer, Charlton and Maradona, are not only meaningless but nonsense too.

Playing under, working with or being recommended by a successful someone are not and will never be equal to actually achieving success. In this league and with the threat of our fourth CL spot hanging by the balance I will favour the appointment of someone who has actually done it ahead of a romantic appointment like Giggs. The financial implications are just too severe for us to be this reckless.

 

[Raoul]

Well no shit. But being groomed and mentored for a specific job should infer some sort of increased chance of being successful in that job, compared to if you aren't, right?

Just because he's being groomed doesn't mean there is any increased chance of him being successful. He still has to manage and prove that despite never having managed a club in his life, he can be successfully manage Manchester United.

 

[Striker10]

Giggs benefits from knowing the players. Most will never have played with Giggs. He commands respect. I think we would also see a return to attacking football because we saw under Sir Alex that you can be an offensive side with a great defense.

 

[Revan]

I watched The Class of '92 film last night for the first time. I must say that it actually reaffirmed my belief that Giggs potentially has what it takes to be a manager - the qualities and characteristics that the other players spoke of, and simply his presence and demeanour. He was in many ways the leader of the group despite not being the vocal, outspoken type - there are many styles of leadership after all.

But then, someone might ask while our most decorated player of all time wasn't ever chosen as our main captain? Obviously you can understand the likes of Cantona, Schmeichel and Keano being captains ahead of him, but G.Neville and Vidic?

 

[Raoul]

Giggs benefits from knowing the players. Most will never have played with Giggs. He commands respect. I think we would also see a return to attacking football because we saw under Sir Alex that you can be an offensive side with a great defense.

That's not managing though is it.

 

[Raoul]

 

[itso 7]

Apologies.

 

[Walrus]

Giggs did not work under Ferguson he played under him, big difference to Phelan who actually spent over a decade as first team coach and assistant manager. So it's rather dishonest to talk up Giggs' time under Van Gaal, something he could have got as a political appointment to keep the base happy, whilst talking down Phelan's credentials - when Phelan worked his way up from the youth team. In fact, in coaching terms and the success by association that you are big on, Phelan beats Giggs hands down. What he has are playing credentials which when you look at Van Gaal, Ferguson, Mourinho and Wenger against Shearer, Charlton and Maradona, are not only meaningless but nonsense too.

Playing under, working with or being recommended by a successful someone are not and will never be equal to actually achieving success. In this league and with the threat of our fourth CL spot hanging by the balance I will favour the appointment of someone who has actually done it ahead of a romantic appointment like Giggs. The financial implications are just too severe for us to be this reckless.

I'm not really sure what you are arguing for here. Do you want Phelan to be our manager now? Or are you saying that he should have replaced Ferguson? Or what?
Like I said, the context at the club is completely different now. I will repeat what I said before that I wouldn't back Giggs to have taken over from Ferguson, nor from Moyes, and I wouldn't back him to take over from LVG next summer if Louis gets sacked on the back of a poor season.

It is about the right man for the right time. If LVG is (as he says he is) building a team for the next manager, then I want someone who is familiar with the system and philosophy that LVG is implementing, who can carry on that work, not go replacing half the back room staff or trying to reinvent the wheel. This is a situation in which I would back Giggs for manager. No other ex-player has been working under LVG or been in the assistant manager role for the last 3-4 years, so there really isn't any comparison to be had.

Just because he's being groomed doesn't mean there is any increased chance of him being successful.

Well we will have to agree to disagree on that. Nobody is saying it is any guarantee of success, but all else being equal, you would rather take the person who has been in the club being groomed for the job, than the person who hasn't, in my opinion.

But then, someone might ask while our most decorated player of all time wasn't ever chosen as our main captain? Obviously you can understand the likes of Cantona, Schmeichel and Keano being captains ahead of him, but G.Neville and Vidic?

I understand and agree, Giggs as a player was not often one of our major leaders on the pitch. However like I said, I think that behind the scenes there could be a lot more to him than that. As fans, we really aren't equipped to make any detailed judgement on what goes on at the club on a day to day basis. Those within the club would be far more knowledgeable than us.

 

[Raoul]

Well we will have to agree to disagree on that. Nobody is saying it is any guarantee of success, but all else being equal, you would rather take the person who has been in the club being groomed for the job, than the person who hasn't, in my opinion.

If he gets the job then I'm sure most of us will get behind him. What we're discussing at this point is the skewed logic of appointing a candidate who has never managed a club, let alone one of the biggest clubs in the world. I'm sure Fergie and LvG are both campaigning for this and Ed is already on board, but that doesn't make it right and we need look no further than Moyes as evidence that managers selecting their successors is a horrible idea.