That Alvarez penalty

So if the ball didn't move that 1mm are you saying he'd have missed the penalty? I am of course open to being educated on how he got an unfair advantage here.
Doesn’t matter at all. He’s only allowed to touch it once. He touched it twice. Allowing that is an unfair advantage.
If we do it the way you seem to want to, we’d be left with a ref who has to judge by himself and some arbitrary standards, when someone actually gains an unfair advantage and when not. That in itself is less transparent and more prone to error and manipulation. It would also take much more time to review scenes like this.
I really don’t see any benefit whatsoever by going by your logic. I see no sense in it.

I think sometimes people just need to accept that life is like that. Tough luck for Atlético and Alvarez. But the rules are fair, transparent and as clear as they could be. I’d go even further and say that this is one of the best rules we have, because there is no room for interpretation. It’s maximum fairness. All Alvarez had to do was to do what literally every penalty taker I have watched before did: only touch the ball once.
 
Doesn’t matter at all. He’s only allowed to touch it once. He touched it twice. Allowing that is an unfair advantage.
If we do it the way you seem to want to, we’d be left with a ref who has to judge by himself and some arbitrary standards, when someone actually gains an unfair advantage and when not. That in itself is less transparent and more prone to error and manipulation. It would also take much more time to review scenes like this.
I really don’t see any benefit whatsoever by going by your logic. I see no sense in it.

I think sometimes people just need to accept that life is like that. Tough luck for Atlético and Alvarez. But the rules are fair, transparent and as clear as they could be. I’d go even further and say that this is one of the best rules we have, because there is no room for interpretation. It’s maximum fairness. All Alvarez had to do was to do what literally every penalty taker I have watched before did: only touch the ball once.
Don't worry mate it's not affecting me that much :lol:
 
What? :lol: this is madness! This is Sparta!
I don't care for athletico but if you are going to use super slow motion and all science available to achieve a black and white answer on the topic of a irregular object impacting on a deforming ball you will have a lot more instances where a ball is touched more than once.
 
Then why did Mbappe and the other players know it from 30 yards away. It is fairly obvious.

TBF, I do think Mbappe and co guessed because of the slip as when a player slips they do quite often hit it with their "standing" foot, however Courtois knew instantly because he's the one looking directly at the ball.
 
He probably does double kick it, the call should stay on the field, not var...

There's NO chip in the ball in UEFA competitions, it's a judgement call that's been made from the replays...
You're wrong. While there's no chip like in the WC, the ball has sensors that are used to know the exact moment there's a touch on the ball in the offsides. The same technology they can use here to see the exact moment where there's a touch in the ball. So yes, it's not just the replay (there are at least 2 angles out there where the touch it's pretty clear) but the sensors for the automated offside.
 
It’s a very simple and transparent rule. It works extremely well. I see no issue at all with it.

My issue is VAR are happy to review things like this yet, if a ref or linesman gives a corner/throw in incorrectly, they don't bother to radio that in. We all know which of these cases happens more often.
 
TBF, I do think Mbappe and co guessed because of the slip as when a player slips they do quite often hit it with their "standing" foot, however Courtois knew instantly because he's the one looking directly at the ball.
If the viewers needed a super slow mo to see, I dont see how Courtouis could see to be honest.
 
Doesn’t matter at all. He’s only allowed to touch it once. He touched it twice. Allowing that is an unfair advantage.
If we do it the way you seem to want to, we’d be left with a ref who has to judge by himself and some arbitrary standards, when someone actually gains an unfair advantage and when not. That in itself is less transparent and more prone to error and manipulation. It would also take much more time to review scenes like this.
I really don’t see any benefit whatsoever by going by your logic. I see no sense in it.

I think sometimes people just need to accept that life is like that. Tough luck for Atlético and Alvarez. But the rules are fair, transparent and as clear as they could be. I’d go even further and say that this is one of the best rules we have, because there is no room for interpretation. It’s maximum fairness. All Alvarez had to do was to do what literally every penalty taker I have watched before did: only touch the ball once.

Did he? or did he touch it with both feet at the same time?!
 
Try spinning a ball by touching it once at one exact point and come back at me please. You can only dink it that way basically.

You need friction to impart any kind of spin.

Done.

You can just hit it to the side, right off the top of your big toe to do what you have suggested.

Now what?
 
TBF, I do think Mbappe and co guessed because of the slip as when a player slips they do quite often hit it with their "standing" foot, however Courtois knew instantly because he's the one looking directly at the ball.
Yeah, it was my first reaction too. Both between him slipping and the elevated flight of the ball, it was pretty obvious it wasn't a clean hit and that it could be looked at.

None of that meant I could see whether there were two separate touches though. Or whether it was a raised turf Beckham scenario.
 
My issue is VAR are happy to review things like this yet, if a ref or linesman gives a corner/throw in incorrectly, they don't bother to radio that in. We all know which of these cases happens more often.
That’s another matter, though.
 
I guess it is impossible to measure how many inches would be an advantage, even though I agree that a toenail is not, there are 2 options, you are either offside or you are not.
It will be mitigated by the panel. As shit as our refs are, if three of them unanimously agree that an attacker gained an unfair advantage, there should be some sporting merit in that, and if there isn't they're in the wrong job.
 
Done.

You can just hit it to the side, right off the top of your big toe to do what you have suggested.

Now what?
You mean with the inside of your foot or you literally dinked it? Don't believe you just curled a ball either and have doubts you ever did.
 
A lot of this talk is detracting from the very pertinent observation that Oblak's attempt to save Rudiger's penalty was laughable. Deserved to lose for that alone.

That was one of the most action-packed shootouts I've seen - from Vini coming off, Alvarez' controversy, Llorente penalty and Oblak palming one in.
 
He definitely hit it twice and the way Julian reacted made you think that he knew it too, as did Mbappe and Courtois.

It is just unlucky for AM but ultimately the technology arrived at the right decision. Real were well within their rights to ask the officials to take a look.
 
Why is the pen retaken had the keeper saved it with feet in front of the goal line? Just keep your feet on the line, simples.
Should they award a goal instead? I'm not sure that exists in the laws of the game, but idk

Think the gk gets a yellow for it, too

It's really weird to me that people complain about it. Just don't fecking slip

Both the keeper stepping off the line and double touch are infractions leading to a free kick. In the first case, that free kick is a penalty
 
I've no idea how you can see the replay and not think it's a double touch tbh. All this controversy is just because it's Real Madrid.

It's unlucky for Alvarez and Athletico, but it's a double touch and so was correctly disallowed.

My only debate here is whether this should be reviewable by VAR.
Every goal is reviewed by VAR so yes it should be
 
It reminds me of these minuscule offsides that people argue against. “But it didn’t give him any advantage and that’s the point of the rule!”.

It’s like they want to introduce more subjective decisions when refereeing, its inconsistency and subjectivity is the biggest issue that we have with referees in general.

Is Alvarez extremely unlucky? Yes. Is this the correct decision? Yes, although they should’ve showed a better angle for the TV viewers.
Spot on. The worst we can do is to is to have more subjectivity to decisions.

People arguing this think they always have the right interpretation and it should simplify the game. Guess what, noone is 100% correct all the time and it woudl bring more delays and controversy to the game.
 
Video isn't conclusive at all, the only thing that pretty much confirms it is players reaction. How VAR concluded Alvarez touched it twice in 10 seconds is also a mistery, but I guess rules are rules. Not that I believe Real Madrid would be on the receiveing end of such decison though.
 
My issue is VAR are happy to review things like this yet, if a ref or linesman gives a corner/throw in incorrectly, they don't bother to radio that in. We all know which of these cases happens more often.
But that's the problem, isn't it? They are comparatively minor incidents that happen too regularly to have technology analyse each call.

You can't have VAR getting involved with every, pretty trivial, decision that, as you suggest, happens regularly in games. Otherwise the game would be stop-start way too often and technology would be involved far more than people claim they want it to be.

Technology is therefore saved for big decisions like goals, penalties, red cards. This was a very big decision, and had a very clear rule that was to be decided upon. Of course that's the kind of thing technology should be used for instead of deciding upon which side get a throw in.
 
You mean with the inside of your foot or you literally dinked it? Don't believe you just curled a ball either and have doubts you ever did.

Doesn't prove anything, but yeah, I just went out the back, got a football and did this, hit the ball slightly under the centre point and just to the right hand side, off the big toe and curled it in the goal. I did it a few times just to make sure I got it right.
 
Watched this live and thought it might have been two touches as soon as he took it. Seeing the replay didn't seem very conclusive so wasn't sure how they'd make the call.

My understanding now is that they used the sensor in the ball, which is used for semi automated VAR, to determine there was a touch before the shot. Curious to know if the grass bunched up, or the ball bounced from his standing foot pushing the grass into the ball, would the sensor be able to determine whether it was grass or his foot?? I've seen videos where players standing foot does not contact the ball but it bounces up in the air prior to them taking the shot. How would the sensor determine if it was a foot touching the ball or the player?

Here's an example:
 
Watched this live and thought it might have been two touches as soon as he took it. Seeing the replay didn't seem very conclusive so wasn't sure how they'd make the call.

My understanding now is that they used the sensor in the ball, which is used for semi automated VAR, to determine there was a touch before the shot. Curious to know if the grass bunched up, or the ball bounced from his standing foot pushing the grass into the ball, would the sensor be able to determine whether it was grass or his foot?? I've seen videos where players standing foot does not contact the ball but it bounces up in the air prior to them taking the shot. How would the sensor determine if it was a foot touching the ball or the player?

Here's an example:


There's no sensor in the ball in UEFA competitions
 
Watched this live and thought it might have been two touches as soon as he took it. Seeing the replay didn't seem very conclusive so wasn't sure how they'd make the call.

My understanding now is that they used the sensor in the ball, which is used for semi automated VAR, to determine there was a touch before the shot. Curious to know if the grass bunched up, or the ball bounced from his standing foot pushing the grass into the ball, would the sensor be able to determine whether it was grass or his foot?? I've seen videos where players standing foot does not contact the ball but it bounces up in the air prior to them taking the shot. How would the sensor determine if it was a foot touching the ball or the player?

Here's an example:

It's not a sensor they confirmed it. Purely by video evidence.
 
Forget the match, the rivals, everything and just focus on the rule.

Why it's so bad to revisited the rule?
The main aim of most of the rules it's to avoid a player take advantage of a situation in a deliberated and unfair way.
It's true that the deliberated part in some situations it's hard to apply, yet as hard as it is, in other cases it's still done, like in some hands in the area that look mostly unintentional (we never trully know) are still not called, controversy will arise, yet at least the decision it's in the spirit of be fair and even avoid very skilled players to aim for hands in the area.

In this rule the thing to revisited it's that if a keeper crosses his line and saves it, it's retaken, sthg similar should be applied to players shooting. And BTW I would not either like a to call it a goal if the keeper crosses his line either, that's too much, even if it's way more possible he did it in a deliberated way, like in most cases is.
There is no player in the world that deliberated would slip to try to score, even if someone would like to try some trick in such fashion and try to desguise it as a slip, the risk it's too much to even try it, we all know this.
So there the deliberated part it's practically impossible. That opens the door to create a more fair rule.
Why should be nulify if he ends scoring? it should be part of the game where luck, timing it's involve, even if the trajectory it's massivly affected. Way less fair would be to nulify a goal when the touch it's so minimal that doesn't even affect the trajectory and it's really hard to spot it.
The same thing would be if the player slips and he doesn't score, bad luck man, it won't be retaken, shyte happens.
Now if someone raises the ball to make a volley, something really obvious, feck you lad, that shit it's a no no.

What I'm saying it's that I get that trying to leave subjectivity aside it's one of the aims, yet to also think in terms of it's really a play where the player in question it's trying to take an advantage shoudl be too, it's still also very important and the main reason behind any rule in the sport.


PD: I hate the mm. offsides too, mainly because there is clearly no real advantage in such actions. Yet I absolutely understand in this case that they try to avoid controversies, still in many cases it's going against the spirit of avoiding a real advantage. If the tech allows it, I would have no problem to deteminate a certain distance and from such distance to consider even 1 mm to be offside, yes it will create controversies too, but at least it would be more clear that the lad in question it's trully offised gaining an advantage. Of course I believe that it's really hard in this case and that many people will preffer to be extremely taxative.
 
What's the literal wording of the rule that's being discussed?

Also, what's the deal with the second-hand victimhood for Real Madrid in this forum? It's only controversial because it's Real Madrid? Come on now, let's not be silly. Absolutely everybody except Real Madrid fans and apparently some Manchester United fans knows that penalty hadn't been disallowed if it had been taken by a Real Madrid player.