That Alvarez penalty

TheLord said:
I don't understand why there's still any confusion regarding the disallowed goal! During the live gameplay when we didn't have access to many video replay angles, I could understand the confusion - but even now?!?

Is there definitive evidence that the ball hit both his feet?
Yes, now we do.

When this has been established, there should be no confusion. Technical rules have to be clear - in absolute black and white. The fact that hitting the ball with both feet was accidental, or that the deflection was miniscule, or that he slipped, or that the ball would have gone in irrespective of the double hit, or that it wasn't obvious to the naked eye, etc.etc. are all mute.

Can you double hit penalty kicks? No.
Was there a double hit? Yes.
Should it have been ruled out? Yes.

Technical rules have to be in black and white with absolutely no space for subjectivity. VAR seemed intrusive, but made the perfect call.
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Yeah I’m gonna suggest the reaction is what it is because it’s Real Madrid. Same as if it’d have happened if it was United.
It took one replay to show the ball struck him twice yet we’ve still people in here saying they can’t see it or it’s not clear.
You don’t get to retake it, simple as, absolute non event.
 
tentan said:


That was ridiculous, i didn't see a second touch.

Surely at least allow him to retake it. Why can kinda bull**** rules is that?
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I'm sorry, but everything they said in that video was negated by that fully American bloke saying Real Madrid and Athletico Madrid like he did. Preposterous accent. feck off.
 
It’s a very simple and transparent rule. It works extremely well. I see no issue at all with it.
 
sullydnl said:
People who want to change the rules because it's not in the spirit of the game or whatever are needlessly over-complicating things, in a way that could lead to even worse ouctomes depending on how they changed the rule.

The solution here is simple: Alvarez shouldn't kick the ball with two feet. He fecked up his penalty, that's entirely on him.

And as noted above, Courtois and Mbappe knew he had touched it twice immediately and told the referee. So it's not even one of those "would anyone even have complained if VAR didn't step in?" situations. The players were complaining.
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Yeah, I don’t get the complaining beyond people clearly wanting Real to lose. It’s no more unfair than Terry slipping as he took his penalty. It was an accident but it’s not in the spirit of the game to let him have another go because he slipped.
 
Acrobat7 said:
It is probably only because it is Real.
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It seems like that.
The discussion really doesn’t make sense to me. It’s one of the least problematic rules I can imagine. But on the other hand, I shouldn’t be surprised. After all, there are people who regularly discuss the offside rule, because they think it’s mean to the attacker if it’s offside by only a centimetre.
It’s all about the feelings.
 
100% touches it with his left foot first. Also, they should use a tiny shred of common sense and realise it was a slip. Madness.
 
The Firestarter said:
Like feck it did :lol: . Nobody would have even mentioned it had it not been for var micro analysis.
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The players on the pitch clearly saw it.

All you have to do is look at the spin and trajectory of the ball. There's no way he can generate the top spin from the way he struck the ball. It clearly came off his other foot.
 
Rule needs to unfortunately be there, and it did graze. Bad luck especially for the fact it probably put him at a disadvantage in the first place but the correct call.

Couldn't see the touch at the time.
 
If a goalkeeper INTENTIONALLY steps off his line and saves a penalty, it is retaken.

If the guy taking the penalty UNINTENTIONALLY double hits the ball as in this case, then it is classed as a missed penalty.

How is this fair?

You can't even conclusively tell that there was 2 touches.

A retake of the penalty would be the fairest outcome.
 
robinrooney said:
If a goalkeeper INTENTIONALLY steps off his line and saves a penalty, it is retaken.

If the guy taking the penalty UNINTENTIONALLY double hits the ball as in this case, then it is classed as a missed penalty.

How is this fair?

You can't even conclusively tell that there was 2 touches.

A retake of the penalty would be the fairest outcome.
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Yes this is actually my biggest issue with this. I think they will change that rule .
 
If this was the other way around, VAR would certainly have left it I reckon.

If it's called on the pitch not a big deal for me.

The usual VAR apologists like Dale Johnson coming out of the woodwork...Also if the other way around, there'd be some weasel words to justify var not jumping in...

I'm just happy not contributing a cent to the shower that's modern football.
 
Always love the "it was pretty obvious" posts in threads like these. It clearly wasn't because a) VAR had to pick it up and b) there's a thread about it.

Really bad luck and agree with the poster above about the rule needing changing. Nobody is trying to do that on purpose and a retake is the fair resolution.
 
Rubbish decision - not enough evidence in the videos we've seen to confirm the referee's on-field decision to allow the penalty was incorrect. Horrible rule to not allow a retake.
 
So let me get this straight. Man flicks up to ball to himself with his trotter and plays young Courtois like a fiddle who's stood like a lemon bewildered by the magical footwork of the young argentine and we're supposed to say his left boot was dragged by the cruel hand of fate moving without agency of its own? Do me a favour love. Alvarez has probably been practising these all week.
 
Disagree with the people saying that a retake would be fair. Just don't slip and don't let it hit your feet twice, the rule is pretty simple and self explanatory. It's a skill and you failed if you slip and hit the ball twice, simple as that for me.
 
RobinLFC said:
Disagree with the people saying that a retake would be fair. Just don't slip and don't let it hit your feet twice, the rule is pretty simple and self explanatory. It's a skill and you failed if you slip and hit the ball twice, simple as that for me.
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Why is the pen retaken had the keeper saved it with feet in front of the goal line? Just keep your feet on the line, simples.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
Always love the "it was pretty obvious" posts in threads like these. It clearly wasn't because a) VAR had to pick it up and b) there's a thread about it.

Really bad luck and agree with the poster above about the rule needing changing. Nobody is trying to do that on purpose and a retake is the fair resolution.
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Well it wasn't obvious on first glance, but when you see the slowed down replay it's fairly obvious.

Yeah, I'm sure nobody is really trying to handball it in the box either, or score on an own goal, maybe we should just disallow them too?
 
The Firestarter said:
Why is the pen retaken had the keeper saved it with feet in front of the goal line? Just keep your feet on the line, simples.
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Because that's just how the rules work? Not saying they make sense but that's how it currently is and should be applied.
 
diarm said:
This is the best angle and resolution I've seen (mute it first):



This is the closest I've seen to evidence for a double touch but even at that, I don't think you can definitively say it's his standing/slipping foot that hits it and not the turf between that foot and the ball.
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The Firestarter said:
I dont really see the video evidence in this case. It's not clear at all.
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There it is?
 
Mb194dc said:
If this was the other way around, VAR would certainly have left it I reckon.

If it's called on the pitch not a big deal for me.

The usual VAR apologists like Dale Johnson coming out of the woodwork...Also if the other way around, there'd be some weasel words to justify var not jumping in...

I'm just happy not contributing a cent to the shower that's modern football.
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If this was the other way around, 'neutrals' would either be delighted Real Madrid were knocked out and so wouldn't be up in arms about it; Or, had the penalty been allowed to stand and then the footage showed a double touch, people would then be up in arms demanding why the rules hadn’t been applied and how Real Madrid had been allowed to get away with it.

The outraged reaction to all this is based on the fact that the (correct) decision benefitted Real Madrid in this instance. And that annoys those who were desperate to see them lose. It's the exact same as when decisions go for / against us. One gets a much bigger reaction from the media and so called 'neutrals' than the other. And even if the decision was right by the rules (as this one was) the outrage then switches to 'well the rules are wrong, then'. All because a (correct) decision has benefitted a disliked club at a crucial moment and so the outrage / debate / controversy has got to be pushed somehow.
 
robinrooney said:
If a goalkeeper INTENTIONALLY steps off his line and saves a penalty, it is retaken.

If the guy taking the penalty UNINTENTIONALLY double hits the ball as in this case, then it is classed as a missed penalty.

How is this fair?

You can't even conclusively tell that there was 2 touches.

A retake of the penalty would be the fairest outcome.
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It should be an automatic goal awarded if the goalkeeper steps off his line, regardless of whether he saves it or not. No retakes.
 
One Night Only said:
Well it wasn't obvious on first glance, but when you see the slowed down replay it's fairly obvious.

Yeah, I'm sure nobody is really trying to handball it in the box either, or score on an own goal, maybe we should just disallow them too?
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That's all that needed to be said. The rest of the sentence is irrelevant and the second sentence is a tedious strawman argument.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's where there should be a common sense rule to overrule things
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Absolutely terrible idea. Would only lead to less transparency and more discussions. The rule is extremely simple and fair. We can discuss the punishment. But the rule itself is working just fine.
 
robinrooney said:
If the guy taking the penalty UNINTENTIONALLY double hits the ball as in this case, then it is classed as a missed penalty.

A retake of the penalty would be the fairest outcome.
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The problem with retaking the penalty is that you are rewarding the player for making multiple mistakes.
  • If you slip, which is an unintentional mistake, you do not get to retake the penalty. You are stuck with the outcome, which is usually a missed penalty.
  • If you double hit the ball, the rule is that it is considered a missed penalty. You are stuck with this fixed outcome.
  • But if you slip and double hit the ball you do not get stuck with the outcome you just get to retake it.
 
robinrooney said:
If a goalkeeper INTENTIONALLY steps off his line and saves a penalty, it is retaken.

If the guy taking the penalty UNINTENTIONALLY double hits the ball as in this case, then it is classed as a missed penalty.

How is this fair?

You can't even conclusively tell that there was 2 touches.

A retake of the penalty would be the fairest outcome.
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That's a perfectly fine stance to take when discussing future rule changes, yeah.

But as the rule currently isn't that, then there's no controversy or bias here. They officiated correctly by the current rules. The controversy or outrage would be if they just suddenly decided to ignore the rule and say either the goal can stand because it was an unintended slip, or the player can get to retake it instead because it was such an important shoot-out. That's obviously not up to individual officials to randomly change rules mid match.

So while I can understand a decision like this making some people aware of a rule that they were ignorant of and discussing whether it should be changed or not moving forward, there's no actual debate about the call made last night. It was 100% the right decision made on the current rules. Atletico weren't robbed, Real weren't given a win through bias or anything. The current rules were applied correctly and the correct decision reached.
 
Bertie Wooster said:
That's a perfectly fine stance to take when discussing future rule changes, yeah.

But as the rule currently isn't that, then there's no controversy or bias here. They officiated correctly by the current rules. The controversy or outrage would be if they just suddenly decided to ignore the rule and say either the goal can stand because it was an unintended slip, or the player can get to retake it instead because it was such an important shoot-out. That's obviously not up to individual officials to randomly change rules mid match.

So while I can understand a decision like this making some people aware of a rule that they were ignorant of and discussing whether it should be changed or not moving forward, there's no actual debate about the call made last night. It was 100% the right decision made on the current rules. Atletico weren't robbed, Real weren't given a win through bias or anything. The current rules were applied correctly and the correct decision reached.
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Great post, fully agree with everything.

Mahrez had a similar penalty ruled out in the Premier Leauge back in 2017, when he was still at Leicester. You only have to look at the reaction of the players in that instance to know that they are all aware of the rule and that you can't hit the ball twice. So it's not like yesterday was the first instance of such a penalty ever being ruled out either.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The problem with retaking the penalty is that you are rewarding the player for making multiple mistakes.
  • If you slip, which is an unintentional mistake, you do not get to retake the penalty. You are stuck with the outcome, which is usually a missed penalty.
  • If you double hit the ball, the rule is that it is considered a missed penalty.
  • But if you slip and double hit the ball you do not get stuck with the outcome you just get to retake it.
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Yeah I agree with this. Would be easier to adjust the rules the other way. Keeper comes off his line early and it's a goal. No reason they can't use VAR for that either.
 
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