Sturridge vs Welbeck

Amar__ said:
He scored before he wasn't sent off though.
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He didn't. Rooney scored first the Kompany went.

Sturridge has had a great start to his Liverpool career and his arrogance will make him look even better when he's in good form. Seems to love playing with Suarez though I'm not sure they're on the same level as Yorke and Cole like he seems to think.
 
Chabon said:
Apart from the entirety of the 18 months prior to Sturridge signing for Liverpool, sure.
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Just because one gets playing time on the wing, not impressing, and the other is behind Abramovich's pet Torres in the Chelsea pecking order doesnt mean the latter is the worse player.

From what Ive seen Sturridge has always been then more talented player, especially when judged as strikers, which they both are. Even from their respective contributions from the wing its not much between them - they are both poor wingers, but Welbeck probably has a bit more influence for his team in that position.

Sturridge has just been too selfish earlier. If he matures in that regard, which he seems to have been doing to some extent for the last half a year or so he is easily the better player. Even when selfish hes a better striker than Welbeck.

Welbeck has some lovely link up play at times but hes too wasteful. Needs to be more clinical. The game against Southampton for instance, he had a sweet touch in the box to get past a player and line up a great opportunity, but he fluffed the shot. He has been like that for the last two years now. Personally I dont see much improvement, most likely because hes not being played as a striker. I hate seeing him on the wing, its hindering his development. He wont become a better striker by playing there, and he will never be a good winger, thats simply not the kind of player he is.
 
Brosstan said:
Welbeck has some lovely link up play at times but hes too wasteful. Needs to be more clinical. The game against Southampton for instance, he had a sweet touch in the box to get past a player and line up a great opportunity, but he fluffed the shot. He has been like that for the last two years now. Personally I dont see much improvement, most likely because hes not being played as a striker. I hate seeing him on the wing, its hindering his development. He wont become a better striker by playing there, and he will never be a good winger, thats simply not the kind of player he is.
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You have a very short sighted way of viewing this, surprising for a United fan considering this is how we train most of our young players.
What Welbeck lacks in the short term will be more than made up in the long term when he goes on to become the complete footballer.

Patience
 
In five years this thread will look as silly as the Robben vs. Ronaldo threads.

Sturridge is a decent enough player, but Welbeck will eclipse him and there simply won't be any questions asked about who's the better footballer.
 
golden_blunder said:
You have a very short sighted way of viewing this, surprising for a United fan considering this is how we train most of our young players.
What Welbeck lacks in the short term will be more than made up in the long term when he goes on to become the complete footballer.

Patience
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I disagree. We dont train most of our young players by repeatedly fielding them out of position. The young players we have coming through who have become great footballers have done so by being played in their best positions, not out of position.

We have played Smalling and especially Evans as CBs, not full backs or DMs, and they have responded by turning into two of the best young defenders we have had in a long time. Rafael has played a lot at RB, making him one of the best in the league in his position. Going some years back, Ronaldo was played week in week out in his favored position and developed into the best in the world. I fail to think of a player we have developed who has become great by playing out of position. Rooney is a special case, he was already a top player when we bought him and has excelled in every position and system.

Welbeck will not become a complete player if he continues to be played on the wing. He will become a better winger, sure, but he doesnt have the skill set to become excellent in that position. He lacks the ability to beat a man, and doesnt have a great cross on him. He does have the skillset to become a good striker (or actually, support striker as I see it, but thats nitpicking), but then thats where he needs to be played.

It really sucks for him that he has two of the best players in the league playing in front of him in his prefered position, but thats the cards he's dealt and the cards the club is dealt, and we have to work with that. I think he should get chances, as a striker - his best position, when RVP or Rooney are injured, suspended or need a rest, in easier fixtures and cup games. That way he will actually develop as a striker.

Ofc we also have Hernandez who fits that slot in the squad.. so we have a bit of a luxury problem when it comes to giving all our strikers game time up front.. I almost feel like it would be best for Welbeck to go on a loan some times. He really developed playing as a striker for Sunderland.
 
Smalling has played regularly at right back during his time here and Welbeck didn't play up front for Sunderland, it was usually Gyan. Not to mention Fletcher playing right wing, Neville, O'Shea, Brown, Giggs, Jones and others playing in numerous positions right into their mid 20's, some throughout their career.
 
We played Fletch on the wings many times when he broke into the first team.

Cleverley was at RB in the youth teams. Played as a false winger on loan mostly.
 
I don't think we can compare Welbeck at this stage to Fletch and Clev at their developmental stage.

I agree with Brosstan about sending him out on a loan.
 
Rafael has played LB, RB and midfield
ditto Fabio, who has also played CB for the reserves
Smalling has played RB and CB
Jones has played RB, CB and CM
Evans has played LB and CB
Welbeck has played LW, RW, CF, LM
Phil Neville played LB, RB, CM
Giggs played LW and CF in his younger days
Scholes played CM, AM and CF in his younger days
O'Shea played LB,RB,CB,CM,and GK
Fletcher CM,RW

I could go on, we have a full history of using young players in different positions particularly when they are starting out. Fergie has himself talked about broadening their knowledge on the pitch to make them better players

Also its a myth that Welbeck played CF for Sunderland. He didnt. He played mostly wide as well

ps. This is his real breakthrough season for United. He is not going to be sent out on loan now. He is getting gametime and developing. He has time on his side to develop consistency in other facets.
 
Steven Seagull said:
Smalling has played regularly at right back during his time here and Welbeck didn't play up front for Sunderland, it was usually Gyan.
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Yea I realise Smalling has played some RB as well, but he was reasonably developed already as a CB when he came from Fulham. And even then he has played more games at CB than RB for us. Its not like we got him, played him a lot at RB and suddenly he was a great CB.

You are right about Welbeck at Sunderland, but he didnt play at the wing either, he played behind Gyan, which is what I would argue is his best position. He links up very well with midfield runners, especially Cleverley with whom it seems he has a very good understanding.
 
The opinion that Welbeck should go out on loan is a joke. I don't know why anybody who has any knowledge of football would entertain that.
 
Shark22 said:
The opinion that Welbeck should go out on loan is a joke. I don't know why anybody who has any knowledge of football would entertain that.
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yeah, its ridiculous

sure why dont we send Hernandez out on loan too? He gets just as much/little gametime as Welbeck
 
Shark22 said:
The opinion that Welbeck should go out on loan is a joke. I don't know why anybody who has any knowledge of football would entertain that.
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Especially when you consider only Van Persie, Evra, Carrick and Rafael have played more matches than he has. (Although mythbusters like Keegan still believe he isn't getting any games).

Also our main two strikers have a historical record of being injury prone. We needto have 4 strikers at the club with them around.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Especially when you consider only Van Persie, Evra, Carrick and Rafael have played more matches than he has. (Although mythbusters like Keegan still believe he isn't getting any games).

Also our main two strikers have a historical record of being injury prone. We needto have 4 strikers at the club with them around.
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stop speaking sense
 
Ignoring what he brings to the team and just focusing on his personal development, loaning him out just so he can play up front for Reading and notch in a couple of goals wouldn't be beneficial to him either in the long run. As others have said we are trying to develop him to become a complete footballer. I don't think a "number 9" is his long term role at all. Personally think Fergie wants him to develop to do a similar role to what Rooney is doing right now.
 
golden_blunder said:
yeah, its ridiculous
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The only reason it might be considered "ridiculous" is the superior training he gets at United compared to what he would possibly get at other club. Also that he can interact with and learn from great forwards like Rooney and RVP in training. But it doesnt really seem like hes benefitting too much from it. Compare his development for the last year or so to when he was at loan at Sunderland, playing not on the wing but up front.

In regards to getting actual time on the pitch as a striker, hes not getting anything here at the moment. Why not loan him out, if not for some non-argument like "hes 22, too old for loan if we want to stick with him".

He made his biggest leaps in progress playing up front at Sunderland, on loan. Its also simply incorrect that he played out on the wing there. He had his best games, like the 3-0 against Chelsea, playing behind Gyan, not as a winger. After Bent was sold he also clearly played in a strike partnership with Gyan.

The situation with Hernandez is hardly the same. Hernandez actually has a clear role in our squad. He is the one who comes on late in games if we are steamrolling or if we need an extra striker. He doesnt play as much as Welbeck, but when he plays he plays as a striker, in his preferred position. Welbeck most of the time is shunted to the wing, where he is poor. His best position is behind the main striker, but he almost never plays there. If SAF doesnt think he will get game time there a loan is not "ridiculous".

Another good argument for not loaning him out is the fact that we want to have 4 striker available in case of an injury crisis. Which is fair enough, I agree with that decision from the club's point of view, but for Welbeck's own development it might not be the best.
 
Danny in that match I think also won a penalty in addition to scoring that goal but ofcourse he can't do it against City.
 
londonredmaniac said:
I think Sturridge is a really good player. Both him and Danny have alot of talent.
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Good post this. I would recommend revisiting this in about 5 years when both are at their peak and see who has done what. In the meantime we should probably just watch and enjoy.
 
Stick said:
Good post this. I would recommend revisiting this in about 5 years when both are at their peak and see who has done what. In the meantime we should probably just watch and enjoy.
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Exactly. Both are just starting their careers really and have plenty of time to make their mark. Sturridge will get more game time at Liverpool as their squad is a tad thin up front and we have genuine world class options.

Sturridge has some great movement, is a tidy finisher and his pace, and to an extent, power is an asset.

Danny showed in getting regular football last season he is a threat, drifts into great positions, good close control and is quite handy at beating a man.

Both should be held in quite high regard really.
 
golden_blunder said:
what is it for then?
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I think Brosstan has explained it pretty well in a couple of posts above.

We no longer play a strict 4-4-2, so the argument for having 4 out and out strikers in pretty invalid. We have enough players to cover in case of injuries. At this moment, Danny has everything in his kitty except composure near and inside the box. I don't know how that is going to improve by playing him on the wings. He'll improve that aspect of his game by playing regularly as a striker or a support striker.
 
londonredmaniac said:
I think Sturridge is a really good player. Both him and Danny have alot of talent.
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exactly but for some reason, on forum boards people have this necessity to compare one player with another (often when they are different types of player) but also to run 1 player down when hyping another
 
Forevergiggs said:
I think Brosstan has explained it pretty well in a couple of posts above.

We no longer play a strict 4-4-2, so the argument for having 4 out and out strikers in pretty invalid. We have enough players to cover in case of injuries. At this moment, Danny has everything in his kitty except composure near and inside the box. I don't know how that is going to improve by playing him on the wings. He'll improve that aspect of his game by playing regularly as a striker or a support striker.
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and who is to say he will play as a CF elseswhere? We cant dictate where another manager may or may not play him? Remember Rossi for example?

SAF has always liked having 4 forwards, Danny is one of those 4, therefore hes going nowhere on loan.
 
Brosstan said:
Its possible to get a lot of game time and at the same time not benefitting from said game time. For instance, if you are repeatedly played out of position and seemingly not progressing as a player.
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who says that he is not progressing as a player? The Welbeck haters say he doesnt score enough goals. Fine, but it doesnt mean he's not developing as a player

I see a player who has made great strides in his overall awareness, making great runs into space, great runs to take defenders away, freeing up space for others. A player who utilises his pace to open up play for United on the break. I see a player who is fully comfortable at international level, who whilst playing in the CF position at a major tournament, produced the goals
 
golden_blunder said:
and who is to say he will play as a CF elseswhere? We cant dictate where another manager may or may not play him? Remember Rossi for example?

SAF has always liked having 4 forwards, Danny is one of those 4, therefore hes going nowhere on loan.
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I might have more faith in his ability than you do, GB. I believe he is a definite starter in the forward position for a mid table or lower club. He is for England, who are in the same bracket when compared other top teams in the world.

He may or may not go on loan, I am giving my opinion that he should.
 
golden_blunder said:
who says that he is not progressing as a player? The Welbeck haters say he doesnt score enough goals. Fine, but it doesnt mean he's not developing as a player

I see a player who has made great strides in his overall awareness, making great runs into space, great runs to take defenders away, freeing up space for others. A player who utilises his pace to open up play for United on the break. I see a player who is fully comfortable at international level, who whilst playing in the CF position at a major tournament, produced the goals
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Pretty much spot on. I think the fallacy of this "he needs to on loan"-nonsense is that people are seeing him as a future #9. I don't see that at all based on this season, and judging from where he's been played, I'd venture that Sir Alex doesn't either.

For me he has all the necessary tools to become a devastating inside forward of the highest calibre, he just needs to add the goals to his game. I think he's been showing very positive signs in regards to his development this season, and can't for the life of me understand why anyone who watches him on regular basis would want to send him out on loan.
 
golden_blunder said:
who says that he is not progressing as a player? The Welbeck haters say he doesnt score enough goals. Fine, but it doesnt mean he's not developing as a player

I see a player who has made great strides in his overall awareness, making great runs into space, great runs to take defenders away, freeing up space for others. A player who utilises his pace to open up play for United on the break. I see a player who is fully comfortable at international level, who whilst playing in the CF position at a major tournament, produced the goals
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To me its pretty clear that hes not progressing much. Hes had all those attributes you mention for a long time (since coming back from the loan at Sunderland) but hes not adding the attributes he lack, like finishing and decision making.

You are also laughably defensive about Welbeck. I havent even criticised him much, just saying that Id like to see him play as and develop as a forward instead of on the wing where we have plenty of better options. Apparantly that is enough to make me a "Welbeck hater".

I am not advocating that we send him out on loan, but that is because its best for United as a team that we keep him in case of injuries, match congestion etc, not because I see is as the best for Welbeck's individual development.
 
The Caf is brilliant isn't it? Sturridge has his first decent game in over a year (yes over a year folks) and suddenly he is a much better talent/prospect that Welbeck who has been steadily playing more, broken into the England side and bagged himself a few good goals in the process. How about before we start shouting our mouths off about Sturridge we wait and see if he finally starts to produce on a regular basis.

Whilst Welbeck may not have improved his finishing, I would certainly say the rest of his game is steadily progressing. It was only a few weeks ago he was named MOTM against Sturridge's Liverpool side at Old Trafford.
 
golden_blunder said:
who says that he is not progressing as a player? The Welbeck haters say he doesnt score enough goals. Fine, but it doesnt mean he's not developing as a player

I see a player who has made great strides in his overall awareness, making great runs into space, great runs to take defenders away, freeing up space for others. A player who utilises his pace to open up play for United on the break. I see a player who is fully comfortable at international level, who whilst playing in the CF position at a major tournament, produced the goals
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I agree with this GB. Superb.

Welbeck is the type of player who will miss an easy chance but score the more difficult one. Being like Hernandez and bagging everything you get is an acquired skill, although some would you have believe goal poaching is a piece of piss.

Rooney is another good example of a player who will often scupper the simpler chances and nail the more awkward ones.
 
If you're taking the snapshot in time right now, I'd give the edge to Sturridge over Welbeck. But I also see more potential in Welbeck's game -- he's more dynamic and oozes more overall quality.

But here's the problem: With the three strikers he has in front of him at United, how does Welbeck ever reach his potential? Because of the lack of talent at Liverpool, Sturridge will gain much more experience over the next 1-2 years.
 
Ruud10 said:
But I also see more potential in Welbeck's game -- he's more dynamic and oozes more overall quality.
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I don't understand what this means. Welbeck and Sturridge are both similar prospects but I find comments like 'more dynamic' and 'oozes more overall quality' very wishy washy when it comes to comparisons between any two players.
 
Ruud10 said:
If you're taking the snapshot in time right now, I'd give the edge to Sturridge over Welbeck. But I also see more potential in Welbeck's game -- he's more dynamic and oozes more overall quality.

But here's the problem: With the three strikers he has in front of him at United, how does Welbeck ever reach his potential? Because of the lack of talent at Liverpool, Sturridge will gain much more experience over the next 1-2 years.
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again, you are thinking only in terms of goalscoring as he will get more goalscoring chances

Welbeck is getting game time and his game is developing
 
Why do people think welbeck cannot beat a man? How many times has he ran almost the whole length of the pitch beating 2-3 players? He's not very bad at dribbling at all. Right now he's just low on confidence compared to Sturridge who is really high in confidence. Sturridge has just made a high profile move to liverpool and his arrogance is actually helping his confidence. It's been a very short while at his new club and it's very common for new players to give 110%. Judging him after a few games will give a completely wrong impression of the player. Am not saying he's not a quality player. My point is we need to look at him for a decent amount of games before trying to compare him with welbeck.

Danny on the other hand has been doing pretty good even after he's not being played in his favoured position. He's lacking goals but his hard work is extremely good for such a young player. It's pretty much the sole reason why he still gets games right now. He's simply unlucky he has potential golden boot winners in 3 strikers ahead of him but that also means he has world class strikers who have bags of experience to tutor him. Sturridge will also get to start almost every game unlike welbeck. So in short term he'll be the better player but i know which player i would like to take if given the option. Purely because of better attitude,arrogance,determination and patience.

I really expect sturridge will quieten soon. I doubt he'll be able to carry liverpool like suarez has done. But he has a very good opportunity to be better than welbeck
 
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