Sturridge vs Welbeck

Snipers Breath said:
No its because people seem keen to put more emphasis on Welbecks workrate and tactical flexibility, as if they're not both forwards who at the end of the day will be judge on their contribution in the final third.
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People were pointing out that goals aren't a fair basis for comparison when Welbeck spent 80% of his time operating on the left side of midfield.

You think using goal output as a basis for comparing him and Sturridge is fair when one is playing as basically a winger and one a striker?
 
Rado_N said:
People were pointing out that goals aren't a fair basis for comparison when Welbeck spent 80% of his time operating on the left side of midfield.

You think using goal output as a basis for comparing him and Sturridge is fair when one is playing as basically a winger and one a striker?
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I've seen Welbeck play, his goal output was down to a genuine lack of composure and poor finishing when in front of goal, i've seen him miss numerous chances when he was through on goal, its not just because hes played on the left that his goal output has been so poor. Although it does look like his getting better now.

The argument is that people seem to put more credence in Welbecks other qualities in order to take away from the lack of goals he has scored in the past, but even as a winger he hasn't contributed in terms of assists and creativity like a winger of his supposed technical ability should. He still has less assists and key passes than Sturridge.
 
There's more to the game than stats, and if you can't see what Welbeck has offered to the team in the last 12 months then there's really no point discussing it any futher.
 
Jaybezia said:
Ah my apologies, so my equation was wrong, what you meant was:

Striker (+Good work rate and tactical flexibility) = midfielder.

Even if some of his major plus points involve 'good work rate' and 'Tactical Flexibility', which means runs a lot and can play more than one position, let's not split hairs.

Welbeck is good technically, that is his biggest plus I'd agree, however the same can be said that Berbatov and Ibrahimovic's best assets are their technical skills... would you consider moving them to midfield? Go look up Ibra's career when he was younger in Holland, he was nearly dropped completely after a big money move at Ajax because his goals dried up, lucky they didn't stick in centre mid :lol:
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I didn't say i would ever consider Welbeck moving to midfield. It seems you may have fail to see what i was saying, Welbeck doesn't have the quality to be a top class midfielder or winger, thats my main assertion but it seems people want to magnify certain qualities of his in order to make up for his lack of goalscoring in the past. Ibra even at Holland scored more consistently than Welbeck, and what he didn't score in goals he supplemented with his creativity, this is something Welbeck does not do despite the notions on here of him having top class technical ability.
 
if i was building a team, i'd have Welbeck rather than Sturridge. Why?

hes a more intelligent footballer. When he plays down the middle he contributes goals but regardless of where he plays, he makes space-creating runs. (we're just not getting the benefit of them this season as the others are playing like a bunch of morons)

it was like when Ruud was dropped. Saha came into the team and instantly it looked better balanced
 
Rado_N said:
There's more to the game than stats, and if you can't see what Welbeck has offered to the team in the last 12 months then there's really no point discussing it any futher.
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I have seen in doses that he has decent ability, certainly not to the standards of certain posters on here though. Of course football is not always about stats, but as a forward you are judged on your ability to create and score. There really isn't no two ways about it, arguments like the one you propose are more relevant to midfielders.
 
golden_blunder said:
if i was building a team, i'd have Welbeck rather than Sturridge. Why?

hes a more intelligent footballer. When he plays down the middle he contributes goals but regardless of where he plays, he makes space-creating runs. (we're just not getting the benefit of them this season as the others are playing like a bunch of morons)

it was like when Ruud was dropped. Saha came into the team and instantly it looked better balanced
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You don't think Sturridge doesn't create space with his runs or movement? I think Suarez will probably disagree.
 
Snipers Breath said:
I have seen in doses that he has decent ability, certainly not to the standards of certain posters on here though. Of course football is not always about stats, but as a forward you are judged on your ability to create and score. There really isn't no two ways about it, arguments like the one you propose are more relevant to midfielders.
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For about the millionth time; he was playing in the midfield for most of last season.

He's now playing as a forward, and we're seeing the results.

As for his ability, I honestly don't understand how anyone who has watched him play for any length of time can question it. His technique is fantastic.
 
Rado_N said:
For about the millionth time; he was playing in the midfield for most of last season.

He's now playing as a forward, and we're seeing the results.

As for his ability, I honestly don't understand how anyone who has watched him play for any length of time can question it. His technique is fantastic.
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He was playing as a winger, thats why i said create, even as a winger/wide forward, i would expect him to be more creative than he is given his fantastic technique as you say. I think he has good technique, don't see it as fantastic, words like that i would reserve for the likes of Ibra, RVP, Berbatov etc, i still see him have bad touches on occasion and his close control doesn't blow me away, he has a well rounded game i would say with no great weaknesses, but no particular standout qualities either.
 
Snipers Breath said:
I didn't say i would ever consider Welbeck moving to midfield. It seems you may have fail to see what i was saying, Welbeck doesn't have the quality to be a top class midfielder or winger, thats my main assertion but it seems people want to magnify certain qualities of his in order to make up for his lack of goalscoring in the past. Ibra even at Holland scored more consistently than Welbeck, and what he didn't score in goals he supplemented with his creativity, this is something Welbeck does not do despite the notions on here of him having top class technical ability.
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Ok, I'll ignore the idiot midfielder comment. Firstly, I'm going to let you know the only fact you tried using is wrong, Ibra in Holland during his first season did not score the current Welbeck. Unless you want to compare a 23 year old Ibra with an 18 year old Danny? But I'm guessing you knew that really, which is why you only said 'Ibra even at Holland scored more consistently', and I'm glad you used the word consistency, because that was exactly their gripe with him, the consistency.

They don't magnify certain qualities in as much as other's downplay other parts of his game. I also don't think for a young striker he lacks goals, he's not a Michael Owen and never will be, he has different game but if you want to talk about consistency how's he done as the LONE striker for the National Team? Moreover, Ibra creative? I just noticed that comment and if you believe at 23 Ibra was 'creative', you need to go back to football nursery as he was commented on for being 'selfish' and far too much playing for himself, hence when things went badly, he was a liability.

I would say Welbeck can be creative, how many little flicks through have we seen or little chips and deft touches? There have been many, the accuracy is debatable, but he is creative, it's just he's not always able to translate that creativity to actuality. For example, someone like Roy Keane had a far superior passing brain, but he doesn't seem to have that quick thought in his head that allowed him to see the game open up, Danny has this. IMO he lacks the ability to translate it, almost as if his brain is working a bit too quickly for him sometimes but I think he's coming into his own, and you and all the other's will be proved wrong when he does indeed add regular goals.
 
adexkola said:
Look at how Hernandez gets criticized because all he does is "score goals". Of course that's not his only contribution, but it shows how much goals are devalued nowadays.
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Well no its not that. Its only devalued if the two players are very close with their scoring records, then you look at what else is in the package. If theres a big difference in the volume of goals scored then its a big deal
 
At this point in time, they're about the same. Average premier league strikers.
 
Jaybezia said:
Ok, I'll ignore the idiot midfielder comment. Firstly, I'm going to let you know the only fact you tried using is wrong, Ibra in Holland during his first season did not score the current Welbeck. Unless you want to compare a 23 year old Ibra with an 18 year old Danny? But I'm guessing you knew that really, which is why you only said 'Ibra even at Holland scored more consistently', and I'm glad you used the word consistency, because that was exactly their gripe with him, the consistency.

They don't magnify certain qualities in as much as other's downplay other parts of his game. I also don't think for a young striker he lacks goals, he's not a Michael Owen and never will be, he has different game but if you want to talk about consistency how's he done as the LONE striker for the National Team? Moreover, Ibra creative? I just noticed that comment and if you believe at 23 Ibra was 'creative', you need to go back to football nursery as he was commented on for being 'selfish' and far too much playing for himself, hence when things went badly, he was a liability.

I would say Welbeck can be creative, how many little flicks through have we seen or little chips and deft touches? There have been many, the accuracy is debatable, but he is creative, it's just he's not always able to translate that creativity to actuality. For example, someone like Roy Keane had a far superior passing brain, but he doesn't seem to have that quick thought in his head that allowed him to see the game open up, Danny has this. IMO he lacks the ability to translate it, almost as if his brain is working a bit too quickly for him sometimes but I think he's coming into his own, and you and all the other's will be proved wrong when he does indeed add regular goals.
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Sorry but is you that chose to bring up Ibra as an example. First of all, i said Ibra scored more consistently than Welbeck, which is a fact, i never said at that age he had yet found consistency in his scoring. Secondly i would say he was creative because he had the propensity to play passes i have not seen from Welbeck, its pretty much in the same way i would describe Coutinho or even Januzaj as creative even though their consistency is not there yet, but they've shown the propensity to play otherworldly passes, which is why i would describe them in that way. Secondly, apart from that Ibra was at Ajax from 20-23, in his last two seasons before his move he did outperform Welbeck statistically both in creating and scoring, this is a fact again.

Also don't know why you brought Ibra up in the first place because their both different type of players and Ibra was obviously playing in an inferior league, still i think even if their was credence in what you say, Ibra has technique that maybe a only a couple players in the world can say to match, same thing with RVP and Berbatov, i don't think Welbeck has that type of natural ability. In terms of Welbecks creativity he certainly has deft touches and flicks but thats where it all ends, RVP at the same age for example even though he had not yet found his scoring touch, was making plays and passes that Welbeck has not yet shown to have in his locker.
 
Siorac said:
That is arrogant rubbish, to be fair.
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I put it overly bluntly for effect, but it is fairly true.

Valuing players by their 'Goals/Assists' might give some reflection of their quality, but if you can't appreciate what Welbeck does and how it helps the team- holding the ball up, pressing, marking, unselfish off the ball movement to create space for others, dropping deeper to provide passing options etc. while also chipping in with goals- then you either aren't paying attention or don't really get football, in fairness.
 
This is a nice light hearted see-saw thread for a chuckle once in a while. :)

If Sturridge hadn't got injured there would have continued to be gloom in here despite Welbeck's nice little purple patch. Got a feeling the gloom may return as Sturridge is almost back.
 
i've always said anyway that Welbeck will be more like a Mark Hughes type than an out and out goalscorer. Its probably unfair to compare him with the likes of Sturridge who are only in the team to score goals
 
Sturridge's contributions are much underrated by opposition fans/managers. I'm glad. :)
 
golden_blunder said:
i've always said anyway that Welbeck will be more like a Mark Hughes type than an out and out goalscorer. Its probably unfair to compare him with the likes of Sturridge who are only in the team to score goals
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yeah, I've always said that Sturridge needs to be as far up the pitch, with as few responsibilities or decisions to make as possible. He's at a club thats been playing him that way and he's showing his quality.

Welbeck is a far more complete player.
 
Snipers Breath said:
Sorry but is you that chose to bring up Ibra as an example..
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I know, not sure what your point is there?

First of all, i said Ibra scored more consistently than Welbeck, which is a fact, i never said at that age he had yet found consistency in his scoring.
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Is there a difference?

Secondly i would say he was creative because he had the propensity to play passes i have not seen from Welbeck,.
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But he didn't. However, I'll go with it and still say it's moot what you can do, if you don't do it.

its pretty much in the same way i would describe Coutinho or even Januzaj as creative even though their consistency is not there yet, but they've shown the propensity to play otherworldly passes, which is why i would describe them in that way..
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And I think that's beautiful, but you can't reinvent meanings of words and claim that it means that 'to you'. Creative means that a player is creative, it says nothing about consistency, so yes Coutinho/Januzaj are creative players, typically speaking Ibra and Welbeck are not.

Secondly, apart from that Ibra was at Ajax from 20-23, in his last two seasons before his move he did outperform Welbeck statistically both in creating and scoring, this is a fact again..
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Bring up the facts... As I hope you aren't comparing 1 good of season of Ibra's to a season that would make players like Rafael and Smalling look average... no one has been good this season, yet Welbeck's scoring per appearances is still pretty damn good.

Also don't know why you brought Ibra up in the first place because their both different type of players and Ibra was obviously playing in an inferior league, still i think even if their was credence in what you say, Ibra has technique that maybe a only a couple players in the world can say to match, same thing with RVP and Berbatov, i don't think Welbeck has that type of natural ability
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I brought Ibra up simply as they were too young strikers who neither developed an amazing goal scoring record for the level they were playing at. Ibra does have a very special technique yes, but Danny has parts in his game that were better than Ibra's at that point, but I digress, I'm not claiming that Danny will be similar to Ibra in any sense, merely that to date in terms of goal scoring, they have been quite similar, and clearly the latter didn't struggle throughout his career, so I see no reason why Welbeck can't add to it.

In terms of Welbecks creativity he certainly has deft touches and flicks but thats where it all ends, RVP at the same age for example even though he had not yet found his scoring touch, was making plays and passes that Welbeck has not yet shown to have in his locker.
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Ok, this I would love to see evidence of, a 23 year old RVP that 'was making plays and passes that Welbeck has not yet shown to have in his locker', you need to show me this...
 
Dumbstar said:
This is a nice light hearted see-saw thread for a chuckle once in a while. :)

If Sturridge hadn't got injured there would have continued to be gloom in here despite Welbeck's nice little purple patch. Got a feeling the gloom may return as Sturridge is almost back.
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FWIW, I don't think Sturridge > Danny or Danny> Sturridge. At the moment, they both look like they have a great potential, IMO Welbeck is currently a better footballer and Sturridge a more clinical striker, again, that does not mean Welbeck can't score goals or that Sturridge can't play football.
 
Drainy said:
yeah, I've always said that Sturridge needs to be as far up the pitch, with as few responsibilities or decisions to make as possible. He's at a club thats been playing him that way and he's showing his quality.

Welbeck is a far more complete player.
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I think this is a misconception to be honest. Not arguing that Welbeck is a more complete player, even though i disagree as we will just be going round in circles, but honestly a lot of people on here seemed to have misunderstood the type of player Sturridge is, this is evident with the comparisons to Defoe. The truth is, and like i say i always refer to his City days because thats the truest reflection of him as a player i've seen since he came here, he came through as a 9, but he often played as a number 10 as well. This season he has shown he has the ability to drop deep and get involved in buildup play, he isn't just a out and out finisher. Rodgers describe him and Suarez both as '9.5s'(cringe i know), but that shows you that the people that watch him the most understand that he is a player who has a very rounded game, he can dribble, he can pass, and he has a great touch, the problem he has had in the past is his lack of awareness for other players, but that isn't anything to do with his technical ability which is very good.




0.18

This is him at 20.
 
@Jaybezia, example of RVP at 25.



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With one of the best passes you will see, a couple years away from Welbecks age, but i can dig back to when he was 21, 22 even and he was playing similar passes.
 
Drainy said:
I put it overly bluntly for effect, but it is fairly true.

Valuing players by their 'Goals/Assists' might give some reflection of their quality, but if you can't appreciate what Welbeck does and how it helps the team- holding the ball up, pressing, marking, unselfish off the ball movement to create space for others, dropping deeper to provide passing options etc. while also chipping in with goals- then you either aren't paying attention or don't really get football, in fairness.
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Welbeck is a good footballer who offers very little when playing out wide - though I'm still saying we could try him as a wide forward in a proper 4-3-3 - but is fairly good and useful through the middle. I wouldn't trust him to lead the line for an entire season though.
 
Sturridge is a very good player and right now a better player than Welbeck.

On ability alone they're both at about the same level but what makes Sturridge better is that he's more decisive when he's on the ball. Welbeck for me takes too long on the ball at times which is frustrating as he has the ability to play quicker and is too indecisive when he gets the ball in the box.
 
@Snipers Breath

Brilliant example, and I knew you'd play that card, it was a brilliant pass, but there are many in this video (below) [00:19 is the first I think] where he wasn't even looking where to pass..

 
The problem with this comparison is that a lot of posters here think that Sturridge is basically another Defoe, whilst Welbeck will surely score more goals if he only gets an extended run up front and that ought to count for something.

Sturridge is quite good in his overall play and not nearly as selfish as he gets accused of. Yes he takes some shots where passing it might be a better option when he gets a sniff at chances, but in general he's quite dedicated to linking up play, spotting a pass for a teammate and holding the ball up. And his skill levels means he does a good job of it. Not outstanding, but good enough that he can link up with another goalhungry forward and both of them look better for it.

He's worlds apart from Defoe. Far closer to Andy Cole in this regard.
 
So, both Daniels have now started 11 PL games, and the vast gulf in their goalscoring ability is more apparent than ever.

So far in the league Daniel Sturridge has contributed an astonishing 9 goals, whereas Danny Welbeck has managed a quite frankly pathetic 8 goals. One might try and make excuses for Danny's pitiful return by pointing out that three of his starts have come on the left wing and and he's actually managed eight in eight as a striker, but who would sink to such levels trying to defend such an obviously inept player?
 
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