Film Star Wars: Episode VIII

[squiggle]

Obi-Wan helped Luke after his 'death' so there's no reason Luke won't be able to help Rey. It was a key plot point of the originals if it's a problem it's more a problem with the originals.

And Luke was working with Rey (though Rey didn't know it) to save the Rebellion.

(I thought Yoda's burning of the tree was just a quick resolution to a problem he knew wasn't important).

And Finn and Rose? I'm trying to think exactly what happened. It was initially an impulsive movement on Rose's part, saddened by the treatment of the horse creatures, to open the gate. Then the children didn't betray them because they realised they were with the Resistance. Then they were on the point of being trapped by the security guards (as they would have been anyway) and used the opportunity to both free the horses and escape.

Their road ran out but they were rescued by BB-8 who had roped in DJ.

Of course the story could have been re-written so that everything went well but then people would have been complaining about Mary Sues. As it was it was fine, I thought. I like the fact that we won't go into plotlines knowing they'll work out.

 

[Rado_N]

Just had a quick read of the last bunch of pages to gauge response to the film, it's pretty funny seeing a few people who didn't like it say they went to see it again.

I'm not a SW fan but I enjoyed Force Awakens, reckon I'll watch this when it's available at home.

 

[kps88]

5. So perhaps Yoda did this to motivate Luke to attend to Rey or make sure he trains her?

6. As a result Luke then appears as a ghost to rescue the resistance (where Rey is not). And then dies from the effort so he won’t be able to train Rey?

The Yoda scene was about him setting Luke straight; telling him to focus on the present and not lose Rey the way he did Kylo. Burning the tree was a gesture to reinforce this; stop focusing on the past and all these books and look at what is in front of you. Of course, Yoda knew Rey already had the books when he did it. One of the central conflicts in the movie is whether the Jedi are worth keeping around and by the end it lands firmly on the side of the Jedi continuing, lead by Rey.

Luke can still train her as a force ghost and Rey was with the resistance when he appeared as a projection, at least she was flying above in the Falcon. There's no use in training her if the entire resistance was wiped out. Luke's last gesture saved whatever was left of the resistance, reinforced his legendary status and restored hope across the galaxy.

I agree the Finn Rose stuff was a mess. I'd have let Finn stay in a coma for most of the movie as he wasn't needed.

 

[Garethw]

I enjoyed it, but feel that the change In director hindered it somewhat.

With the exception of episodes 4-6, the best trilogies (Dark knight, back to the future, Godfather, lord of the rings) have benefitted from having a singular directors vision.

Even the much maligned Star Wars prequel trilogy, benefitted from having Lucas as the sole creative force behind it.

SPOILER:





My biggest issue was that Luke wasn’t given a huge action set piece. Have him use the force and crush all those ATAT walkers into small cubes at the end. Make him look bad ass before having him become one with the force.

This would have at least appeased the fans somewhat.

 

[Untied]

Just had a quick read of the last bunch of pages to gauge response to the film, it's pretty funny seeing a few people who didn't like it say they went to see it again.

I'm not a SW fan but I enjoyed Force Awakens, reckon I'll watch this when it's available at home.

Could it be that it's a time of year when people go to the cinema with friends/family and end up seeing something again?

Obi-Wan helped Luke after his 'death' so there's no reason Luke won't be able to help Rey. It was a key plot point of the originals if it's a problem it's more a problem with the originals.

And Luke was working with Rey (though Rey didn't know it) to save the Rebellion.

(I thought Yoda's burning of the tree was just a quick resolution to a problem he knew wasn't important).

And Finn and Rose? I'm trying to think exactly what happened. It was initially an impulsive movement on Rose's part, saddened by the treatment of the horse creatures, to open the gate. Then the children didn't betray them because they realised they were with the Resistance. Then they were on the point of being trapped by the security guards (as they would have been anyway) and used the opportunity to both free the horses and escape.

Their road ran out but they were rescued by BB-8 who had roped in DJ.

Of course the story could have been re-written so that everything went well but then people would have been complaining about Mary Sues. As it was it was fine, I thought. I like the fact that we won't go into plotlines knowing they'll work out.

The Yoda scene was about him setting Luke straight; telling him to focus on the present and not lose Rey the way he did Kylo. Burning the tree was a gesture to reinforce this; stop focusing on the past and all these books and look at what is in front of you. Of course Yoda knew Rey already had the books when he did it. One of the central conflicts in the movie is whether the Jedi are worth keeping around and by the end it lands firmly on the side of the Jedi continuing, lead by Rey.

Luke can still train her as a force ghost and Rey was with the resistance when he appeared as a projection, at least she was flying above in the Falcon. There's no use in training her if the entire resistance was wiped out. Luke's last gesture saved whatever was left of the resistance, reinforced his legendary status and restored hope across the galaxy.

I agree the Finn Rose stuff was a mess. I'd have let Finn stay in a coma for most of the movie as he wasn't needed.

This doesn't really counter my claim that it's incoherent. If the best explanation for his death is that it doesn't really matter, then why bother writing his death at all? It either has a payoff that is counter to his motivations (he won't be there for Rey), or it has no payoff (he will be there for Rey).

Let's take that central conflict. So Luke's arc is: He is cut off from the force and he thinks the Jedi should end. Yoda appears to him, confirms that the Jedi should end by burning the tree when Luke hesitates, but tells him that he needs to pass on what he knows of failure to Rey. He then appears to Ren and says "I won't be the last Jedi". So what motivated this complete 180º on the continuation of the Jedi, when the scene with Yoda (which in theory motivates it) communicates that the Jedi should end.

What would have made narrative sense: Yoda prevents Luke burning the tree down. Tells Luke that yes, the Jedi had their failings, but their failings are important. You can learn from them. Now go and teach Rey your failures. But no, Johnson wrote something incoherent instead.

 

[kps88]

Let's take that central conflict. So Luke's arc is: He is cut off from the force and he thinks the Jedi should end. Yoda appears to him, confirms that the Jedi should end by burning the tree when Luke hesitates, but tells him that he needs to pass on what he knows of failure to Rey. He then appears to Ren and says "I won't be the last Jedi". So what motivated this complete 180º, when the scene with Yoda, which in theory motivates it, actually functions as a confirmation of the Jedi ending.

What would make sense is : Yoda prevents Luke burning the tree down. Tell's Luke that yes, the Jedi had their failings, but their failings are important. You can learn from them. Now go and teach Rey you failures. But no, Johnson wrote something incoherent instead.

Yoda burning the tree does not confirm he feels the Jedi should end. It was his way of saying stop obsessing about these books and the past and focus on Rey and the present. Burning a tree doesn't mean the end of the Jedi. Telling him to focus on Rey is the opposite of saying the Jedi should end.

 

[Rado_N]

Could it be that it's a time of year when people go to the cinema with friends/family and end up seeing something again?

hehe, sorry if I touched a nerve, I just don't understand why on earth you'd pay to go see a movie again that you didn't like. It's madness.

 

[Untied]

Yoda burning the tree does not confirm he feels the Jedi should end. It was his way of saying stop obsessing about these books and the past and focus on Rey and the present. Burning a tree doesn't mean the end of the Jedi. Telling him to focus on Rey is the opposite of saying the Jedi should end.

But Luke isn't obsessing over the books. He hasn't even read them (got to get those cheap laughs). He is burning them as a symbolic "let's end this". When he hesitates ("is this actually worth keeping"), Yoda steps in and completes the symbolic burning for him.

Now you can say Yoda meant something else by the burning them, than Luke originally intended, but it isn't well constructed:

• Luke wanted to burn the books for one reason
• Yoda burnt them for a different reason
• Luke learns that he was wrong to want to burn the books by seeing them burn for this different reason
• But actually no one burnt them

 

[Untied]

hehe, sorry if I touched a nerve, I just don't understand why on earth you'd pay to go see a movie again that you didn't like. It's madness.

Ha I won't pay to see it a third time!

 

[Zarlak]

Did he? I mean, he died in the process, which is what Ren wanted all along.

He died for saving Leia and an another half of dozen incompetent people. Hardly worth it, I would say.

He did for Rey exactly what Obi Wan did for him. It was nice to come full circle.

 

[squiggle]

I agree with what @kps88 wrote above. I’d add about this point

This doesn't really counter my claim that it's incoherent. If the best explanation for his death is that it doesn't really matter, then why bother writing his death at all? It either has a payoff that is counter to his motivations (he won't be there for Rey), or it has no payoff (he will be there for Rey).

that in a general sense death in that universe would have much the same meaning it would to people in ours who believe in an afterlife. They wouldn’t believe there’s a permanent separation but there would still be great sadness at the passing.

But Luke, like Obi-Wan and Yoda, will be able to stay around - and that’s particularly important in his case because his end showed that he was no longer cut off from the Force. That’s why it was so triumphant.

If the idea of Force ghosts is a problem then it’s a problem of the first three.

 

[Ubik]

But Luke isn't obsessing over the books. He hasn't even read them (got to get those cheap laughs). He is burning them as a symbolic "let's end this". When he hesitates ("is this actually worth keeping"), Yoda steps in and completes the symbolic burning for him.

Now you can say Yoda meant something else by the burning them, than Luke originally intended, but it isn't well constructed:

• Luke wanted to burn the books for one reason
• Yoda burnt them for a different reason
• Luke learns that he was wrong to want to burn the books by seeing them burn for this different reason
• But actually no one burnt them

Yoda says, paraphrasing, that there's nothing in the books that Rey doesn't already posses. It's not saying the books are useless, or that the Jedi should end, it's that it doesn't matter if they burn the tree because Rey has what she needs and Rey is what's important. Obviously, there's a dramatic irony at play in that Yoda knows she has the actual books and was being literal, whereas Luke thinks he's talking more generally, but the point is the same to both of them as they watch - this "crude matter" doesn't matter, stop worshipping it, what matters is preserving the light - ie Rey.

 

[Revan]

He did for Rey exactly what Obi Wan did for him. It was nice to come full circle.

Obi saved Luke back then. Without Obi sacrificing himself, Luke gets captured / killed. Additionally, Obi has no chance of surviving Vader and his troops.

Rey was never in any danger whatsoever, so any notion of Luke saving Rey is nonsense. Sure, he will guide her as Obi/Yoda did with him, but he could have guided her while being alive too.

 

[kps88]

Rey was never in any danger whatsoever, so any notion of Luke saving Rey is nonsense. Sure, he will guide her as Obi/Yoda did with him, but he could have guided her while being alive too.

She was right near the resistance base that was supposedly cornered by the bad guys; I wouldn't call that no danger whatsoever. She's also of not much use if the entire resistance was wiped out.

 

[Bobski]

hehe, sorry if I touched a nerve, I just don't understand why on earth you'd pay to go see a movie again that you didn't like. It's madness.

Did it myself, though to be honest it was that or be dragged around the sales by the GF. Chose the less painful option.

Sometimes your mood going in effects perception of the film. I didn't like it but decided to go back a second time after reading so many gushing reviews, just in case I was just being a negative old cynic. Same response.

 

[Rado_N]

Did it myself, though to be honest it was that or be dragged around the sales by the GF. Chose the less painful option.

Sometimes your mood going in effects perception of the film. I didn't like it but decided to go back a second time after reading so many gushing reviews, just in case I was just being a negative old cynic. Same response.

Pub.

 

[Zarlak]

Obi saved Luke back then. Without Obi sacrificing himself, Luke gets captured / killed. Additionally, Obi has no chance of surviving Vader and his troops.

Rey was never in any danger whatsoever, so any notion of Luke saving Rey is nonsense. Sure, he will guide her as Obi/Yoda did with him, but he could have guided her while being alive too.

He knew where she went, though. Plus he was also saving Leia. Obi Wan did it for Luke and Han etc.

 

[RedSky]

Luke 100% went there to save his fecking sister, Leia. Not some random kid he'd just met and knew nothing about. I'm not sure how they could have made that any more obvious.

 

[Revan]

Luke 100% went there to save his fecking sister, Leia. Not some random kid he'd just met and knew nothing about. I'm not sure how they could have made that any more obvious.

Yep.

Leia not being on the next movie makes that sacrifice...somehow pointless thought.

Rey is hardly a random kid at this stage. She is this generation's Luke.

 

[Ubik]

It wasn't one or the other, it was to save the resistance as a whole and respark a rebellion across the galaxy. He spells it out himself.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Don't give the mouse ideas.

 

[Van Piorsing]

If Luke was a coward then Yoda and Obi Wan were the biggest masters of exile and elusion aka desertion in times of war. This argument is on the same level as bombs in space also present in ESB.

There are better ways to sting this movie, if you have to.

 

[Ødegaard]

If Luke was a coward then Yoda and Obi Wan were the biggest masters of exile and elusion aka desertion in times of war. This argument is on the same level as bombs in space also present in ESB.

There are better ways to sting this movie, if you have to.

Yoda went into hiding after the war was lost.
He was the most powerful Jedi overall and failed in a one-on-one against Palpatine (think only Mace Windu was stronger with a lightsaber, but not sure).
Obi-Wan... Well, If he genuinely thought Anakin would die from burning then I suppose it's not on him, but some blame for not finishing him off when he had the chance due to sentimentality. Went into hiding also after the war was lost.

Don't know how the first empire were before Luke went into hiding, so can't comment on that. But on the basis of screwing up the relationship with his nephew he should have done better, similarly to Obi-Wan.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Yoda went into hiding after the war was lost.
He was the most powerful Jedi overall and failed in a one-on-one against Palpatine (think only Mace Windu was stronger with a lightsaber, but not sure).
Obi-Wan... Well, If he genuinely thought Anakin would die from burning then I suppose it's not on him, but some blame for not finishing him off when he had the chance due to sentimentality. Went into hiding also after the war was lost.

Don't know how the first empire were before Luke went into hiding, so can't comment on that. But on the basis of screwing up the relationship with his nephew he should have done better, similarly to Obi-Wan.

So Obi-Wan and Yoda failed and conveniently changed the registration of residence in undisclosed areas. That's pretty much hiding while others were still fighting in a non open conflict and risk a lot more than the most powerful Jedi.

 

[Ødegaard]

So Obi-Wan and Yoda failed and conveniently changed the registration of residence in undisclosed areas. That's pretty much hiding while others were still fighting in a non open conflict and risk a lot more than the most powerful Jedi.

Haven't read books, so can't say I know if there is fighting that soon after.
Maybe @Revan or @Zarlak can add something to that?
But from the movie-perspective, the war was lost when Obi-Wan & Yoda lost their matches as the Jedis were whiped out and they went for the head(s) of the snake to try and get stuff back in order. They were the last hope of that generation and went into hiding to wait for the next generation (Luke/Leia) to grow up and have their go at it. If both of them were killed off there would be no training for Luke or Leia and the siths would have won fully.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Haven't read books, so can't say I know if there is fighting that soon after.
Maybe @Revan or @Zarlak can add something to that?
But from the movie-perspective, the war was lost when Obi-Wan & Yoda lost their matches as the Jedis were whiped out and they went for the head(s) of the snake to try and get stuff back in order. They were the last hope of that generation and went into hiding to wait for the next generation (Luke/Leia) to grow up and have their go at it. If both of them were killed off there would be no training for Luke or Leia and the siths would have won fully.

...and if something would happen to Luke like it did to Han and rest of republic then it would probably complicate things, too. Luke did the same thing as his master and managed to train another Jedi. Ahsoka Tano from expanded universe also went into hiding after quiting the Jedi order but she was involved in rebel forces actively fighting back.

My point is labelling Luke as a coward is simply not true. He took the Emperor down by convicing Darth Vader he's not Darth Vader anymore. I don't think Yoda and Obi Wan are cowards but seeing how Luke's being attacked after one movie it's a bit taking it far.

 

[squiggle]

TLJ seems to have really annoyed some edgelords on Youtube and elsewhere. I'm not talking about anyone here but damn some of the anger elsewhere....

Unfortunately there's such a split in terms of what I suppose we must call gender at the moment and TLJ is partly an undeserving victim of that.

It's partly the victim of those threatened by any change but also by some on the other side. The new Ghostbusters, for example, or Buzzfeed. Two lots of bigots, each urging the other on to greater hysteria.

But TLJ isn't Ghostbusters at all (there's no putting anyone down). It's just a fun, emotional film where everyone can be brave.

 

[sullydnl]

TLJ seems to have really annoyed some edgelords on Youtube and elsewhere. I'm not talking about anyone here but damn some of the anger elsewhere....

Unfortunately there's such a split in terms of what I suppose we must call gender at the moment and TLJ is partly an undeserving victim of that.

It's partly the victim of those threatened by any change but also by some on the other side. The new Ghostbusters, for example, or Buzzfeed. Two lots of bigots, each urging the other on to greater hysteria.

But TLJ isn't Ghostbusters at all (there's no putting anyone down). It's just a fun, emotional film where everyone can be brave.

Aye, it's weird seeing the film embroiled in arguments involving gender, race, feminism, diversity, the alt-right or whatever. It's ultimately just the latest in a series of fun, silly kids films, nothing actually important.

Everything has to be something on the internet.

 

[Ødegaard]

...and if something would happen to Luke like it did to Han and rest of republic then it would probably complicate things, too. Luke did the same thing as his master and managed to train another Jedi. Ahsoka Tano from expanded universe also went into hiding after quiting the Jedi order but she was involved in rebel forces actively fighting back.

My point is labelling Luke as a coward is simply not true. He took the Emperor down by convicing Darth Vader he's not Darth Vader anymore. I don't think Yoda and Obi Wan are cowards but seeing how Luke's being attacked after one movie it's a bit taking it far.

Luke isn't being called a coward from the old trilogy though, more a hero who had close to absolute faith in the good in others (if it was there).
He was being called a coward for going into hiding after fecking up the relationship with his nephew who he likely was still much stronger than back then. Not that I agree with those having that claim, but saying they think of him as a coward because of the act of going into hiding and saying it's the same as Yoda and Obi-Wan being cowards or saying that because he was a hero in the original trilogy means he can't have turn into a coward here doesn't sound like solid arguments in my opinion.

 

[Ødegaard]

TLJ seems to have really annoyed some edgelords on Youtube and elsewhere. I'm not talking about anyone here but damn some of the anger elsewhere....

Unfortunately there's such a split in terms of what I suppose we must call gender at the moment and TLJ is partly an undeserving victim of that.

It's partly the victim of those threatened by any change but also by some on the other side. The new Ghostbusters, for example, or Buzzfeed. Two lots of bigots, each urging the other on to greater hysteria.

But TLJ isn't Ghostbusters at all (there's no putting anyone down). It's just a fun, emotional film where everyone can be brave.

I struggle to see how the diversity in a story set in space where there are all kinds of races is a issue, especially with new original characters...
And I'm one of those who like to keep traditions as is when it comes to superhero movies.

 

[Redlambs]

Aye, it's weird seeing the film embroiled in arguments involving gender, race, feminism, diversity, the alt-right or whatever. It's ultimately just the latest in a series of fun, silly kids films, nothing actually important.

Everything has to be something on the internet.

This is something we can all agree on I'm sure! It doesn't really matter if we all have different opinions, but thankfully no one on here displays that can't of ridiculousness.


Which is why I find it odd that occasionally it gets brought up on here. Such as RN7's post about Rose' appearance. Why bring such nonsense that you read elsewhere to this forum?

 

[Revan]

Haven't read books, so can't say I know if there is fighting that soon after.
Maybe @Revan or @Zarlak can add something to that?
But from the movie-perspective, the war was lost when Obi-Wan & Yoda lost their matches as the Jedis were whiped out and they went for the head(s) of the snake to try and get stuff back in order. They were the last hope of that generation and went into hiding to wait for the next generation (Luke/Leia) to grow up and have their go at it. If both of them were killed off there would be no training for Luke or Leia and the siths would have won fully.

Yep, that was the idea, destroy Sidious and Vader. Kenobi kind of hesitates to kill Vader (in old EU he realised that Vader is still alive after a year or so) while Yoda is overpowered from Sidious and realized that at best he can survive. He had failed. They decided that the only hope is to train kids of Vader.

About the Rebels, in old EU (The Force Unleashed games), they are created from Vader when he makes a plan for his apprentice to take together all powerful leaders who are against the Empire. However, his apprentice in the end sacrifices himself to save Organa, Leia, Mothma and Co.

In the new Canon (Rebels TV show), it is done much better with different organic cells being created separately in different systems and then later starting communicating with each other and coordinating the attacks. Rebels also have 2 ex Jedi padawans (one of them a prodigy, likely the strongest padawans of her generation) and one of those 2 Jedi starts training a young guy as his Padawan.

In both cases, Yoda and Kenobi are absent I the Rebels organisation, with their only goal being to protect Luke and Leia.

I like the new version much better.

 

[Ødegaard]

Yep, that was the idea, destroy Sidious and Vader. Kenobi kind of hesitates to kill Vader (in old EU he realised that Vader is still alive after a year or so) while Yoda is overpowered from Sidious and realized that at best he can survive. He had failed. They decided that the only hope is to train kids of Vader.

About the Rebels, in old EU (The Force Unleashed games), they are created from Vader when he makes a plan for his apprentice to take together all powerful leaders who are against the Empire. However, his apprentice in the end sacrifices himself to save Organa, Leia, Mothma and Co.

In the new Canon (Rebels TV show), it is done much better with different organic cells being created separately in different systems and then later starting communicating with each other and coordinating the attacks.

In both cases, Yoda and Kenobi are absent I the Rebels organisation, with their only goal being to protect Luke and Leia.

I like the new version much better.

Thanks. Haven't seen the rebels show, just went off my memory of the prequels.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Luke isn't being called a coward from the old trilogy though, more a hero who had close to absolute faith in the good in others (if it was there).
He was being called a coward for going into hiding after fecking up the relationship with his nephew who he likely was still much stronger than back then. Not that I agree with those having that claim, but saying they think of him as a coward because of the act of going into hiding and saying it's the same as Yoda and Obi-Wan being cowards or saying that because he was a hero in the original trilogy means he can't have turn into a coward here doesn't sound like solid arguments in my opinion.

I agree with you on Luke not being a coward. Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi Wan started this by letting Anakin slip into dark side but I don't remember the flaming backlash like Luke's having. He definitely had a moment of weakness as a master but so does Yoda and entire Jedi Council in the prequels. They all failed collectively or no one.

Aye, it's weird seeing the film embroiled in arguments involving gender, race, feminism, diversity, the alt-right or whatever. It's ultimately just the latest in a series of fun, silly kids films, nothing actually important.

Everything has to be something on the internet.

They would have to make a seperate SW movie strictly about droids... and without 3PO.

 

[Ødegaard]

I agree with you on Luke not being a coward. Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi Wan started this by letting Anakin slip into dark side but I don't remember the flaming backlash like Luke's having. He definitely had a moment of weakness as a master but so does Yoda and entire Jedi Council in the prequels. They all failed collectively or no one.


They would have to make a seperate SW movie strictly about droids... and without 3PO.

Think people have put most of the stuff from the prequels in the "i hate this shit" group of criticisms. So may be why people aren't mentioning it. :P

 

[caid]

Aye, it's weird seeing the film embroiled in arguments involving gender, race, feminism, diversity, the alt-right or whatever. It's ultimately just the latest in a series of fun, silly kids films, nothing actually important.

Everything has to be something on the internet.

Think people are just projecting.
Its the usual suspects moaning about gender diversity and attaching their boring ass views to a bit of pop culture.

 

[Revan]

I agree with you on Luke not being a coward. Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi Wan started this by letting Anakin slip into dark side but I don't remember the flaming backlash like Luke's having. He definitely had a moment of weakness as a master but so does Yoda and entire Jedi Council in the prequels. They all failed collectively or no one.


They would have to make a seperate SW movie strictly about droids... and without 3PO.

Qui-Gon got killed before Anakin started his training, so a bit harsh to put blame on him. Kenobi - for most part - was the only thing that stopped Skywalker from failing to the dark side earlier. The blame is mostly on Skywalker himself, followed by the Jedi Council, especially Yoda and Windu.

Jedi High Council can be blamed for getting destroyed but Sidious was just too much powerful, too much resourceful and too smart for them. Their only chance always was Anakin, but they treated him like an arrogant teen (which he was) instead of an equal (which he was).

 

[Ubik]

Qui-Gon got killed before Anakin started his training, so a bit harsh to put blame on him. Kenobi - for most part - was the only thing that stopped Skywalker from failing to the dark side earlier. The blame is mostly on Skywalker himself, followed by the Jedi Council, especially Yoda and Windu.

Jedi High Council can be blamed for getting destroyed but Sidious was just too much powerful, too much resourceful and too smart for them. Their only chance always was Anakin, but they treated him like an arrogant teen (which he was) instead of an equal (which he was).

It's definitely Qui-Gon's fault, he disregarded all the warnings (because midichlorians, prophecy) then made Obi-Wan swear he'd train him when he was about to die.

Which is another annoying thing about the prequels - Obi-Wan makes clear in RotJ that it was his decision and his fault, which would've made for a much more interesting character.

 

[Revan]

It's definitely Qui-Gon's fault, he disregarded all the warnings (because midichlorians, prophecy) then made Obi-Wan swear he'd train him when he was about to die.

Which is another annoying thing about the prequels - Obi-Wan makes clear in RotJ that it was his decision and his fault, which would've made for a much more interesting character.

The prophecy was fulfilled. Anakin killed Sidious. Without Anakin, the order gets destroyed anyway and there is no-one who kills Sidious and no Luke to restore the order. He also didn't make Kenobi swear, he just said to Kenobi to train the boy.

Kenobi blames himself to some degree for not training Anakin better, sure, but he couldn't have done nothing more. I find Kenobi an excellent character and McGregor was one of the shining points of the prequels. Despite that he had some bad dialogue to say, he still did a great job.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Qui-Gon got killed before Anakin started his training, so a bit harsh to put blame on him. Kenobi - for most part - was the only thing that stopped Skywalker from failing to the dark side earlier. The blame is mostly on Skywalker himself, followed by the Jedi Council, especially Yoda and Windu.

Jedi High Council can be blamed for getting destroyed but Sidious was just too much powerful, too much resourceful and too smart for them. Their only chance always was Anakin, but they treated him like an arrogant teen (which he was) instead of an equal (which he was).

Qui-Gon's definite judgement on the old Jedi prophecy despite doubts of the council was risky enough but Obi Wan starting Annie's training despite Yoda's objection was very awkward from less experienced master. Gotta say, Luke handled it extremely well without any governing body as a council to the end.

I have silent hope Disney rather than Han Solo story will make Ashoka movie in the future. I would risk and say almost more than Rey, she earned her place in SW spotlight as a character with rich backstory and believable motivations. With a proper casting they could make her one more likeable charaters in SW movies which she probably already is. The potential for a good movie is there.