Saw it last night. I'm no Star Wars fan and so I struggled with what was going on at times but all in all I thought it was good fun. Kind of tempted to work my way through them all now.
Film Star Wars: Episode VIII
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But it is not a hypothetical scenario. The Rebels decisively won in RotJ, destroyed the Empire and reinstated the Republic. The new Canon books (with new Disney rules, they are as Canon as the movies) further inforce that.
Flash forward 40 years later, and we are at the same position as in A New Hope, in fact the Republic is weaker than Rebels back then, and the First Order is stronger than The Empire back then. How did that happen?
I think it is quite clear that the movie pleased people who aren't that much Star Wars fan and watched it just as an another blockbuster. However, for people who have spend a lot of time with Star Wars by watching the movies multiple times and reading their novelization in addition to other SW material, the movies just do not make fecking sense. In fact, even for occasional watchers, they didn't make much sense considering the low user ratings in two biggest movie rating websites.
That's all true but many people were complaining about it back then.
Over 40 years, is how it happened. Considering how much can change in the weeks/months that each movie lasts it’s not even a tiny stretch to have another radical shift in power over the course of 40 years.
I couldn’t give a toss what happened in books.
We should have GoT style "no book talk" rule in this thread. No one making these movies gives a shit about the books.
I am kind of curious, though. Is this superhero Luke - that loads of people are butt-hurt they didn’t see - a feature of the books? Because it’s hard to see how he got put on such a pedestal based on what we saw on film.
@Pogue Mahone
You're acting as a troll at this point, calling anyone who didn't like something you liked for fanboys or other words you use in derogatory ways and arguing against anyone having a issue with the film for not being coherent with the other films or story-telling within the universe set by the makers, because you don't care about that sort of stuff. You liked it, others didn't. You telling them it doesn't matter to you won't change how they feel about the film.
You're acting as a troll at this point, calling anyone who didn't like something you liked for fanboys or other words you use in derogatory ways and arguing against anyone having a issue with the film for not being coherent with the other films or story-telling within the universe set by the makers, because you don't care about that sort of stuff. You liked it, others didn't. You telling them it doesn't matter to you won't change how they feel about the film.
They were but in general Star war fans liked it or dare I say .. loved it. Back then it was the non star wars fan who were mostly amused over a straight remake of an older movie turning so many adults into fanbois. Even current narrative is that Rian destroyed the current triology when JJ had started something good.. which is bizarre IMO. For example, story choices already made in TFA meant that Rey's parentage reveal was going to be hokey if she was to be some descendant of jedi line. You would have to come up with a very convoluted storyline of why she could be a Skywalker or kenobi. I don't even think Han being separate from Leia was that well explained in TFA. Even with their sun turning, it did not make sense that he would leave her alone fighting the First order and turn into a smuggler again. But very few hardcore fans cared because seeing him and Chewbacca do their thing was too much to bother about plot holes. I just don't buy that TFA had a more coherent storyline than TLJ.
Probably. He becomes by far the most powerful Force user in the old EU books. I haven't read them (according to most people they are awful) and was glad to see those books getting de-canonized (does this word exist) in order to leave space for sanity. In the new books, as far as I know, he is barely mentioned.
However, a young and not totally trained Luke defeated Darth Vader who is canonically one of the most powerful Force users of all time (and had the potential to become by far the strongest one, with Luke having the same potential) and he resisted the Emperor by refusing to turn dark. Now the same Luke just giving up, and being pushed (and almost killed) by a young and untrained Ben Solo, is a bit hard to swallow.
Very hard to happen. It would have been the equivalent of Germany being able to totally destroy United Stated 40 years after the second world war. At a time, when United States wouldn't have helped Germany (like they did after the world) but would have tried to destroy it even further. From real world analogies, it just doesn't happen. From cinematic point of view, why on Earth did we need to watch a movie where half of the plot was destroying a death star with the other half on finding Luke, which resulted in nothing in the second movie.
Feck me, I don't know which movie I am criticizing now. Let's give all the faults to prequels instead.
This is becoming unhealthy for me, talking so much for a movie that I disliked.
I'll give you though, if you watch both this (and especially The Force Awakens) as standalone movies, they are quite good.
Or the equivalent of Germany coming close to taking the whole of mainland Europe by force, just over 20 years after being trounced in World War 1?
Aha. Thanks. Explains a lot.
I think TFA certainly had a more coherent storyline because it was more compact and focused, mainly due to it borrowing most of the plot from Episode IV - a simple and straightforward story on its own. TFA built directly on top of the the original trilogy and didn't need to answer any questions. It was a clean slate. Problem is, this new trilogy seems to be built piece by piece and it already starts to feel clunky and incoherent because The Last Jedi had to deal with questions and setups from TFA that JJ himself had no answer or plan for.
In short - I think many of the general plot's problems in the new film could be traced back to the previous one but that doesn't excuse the poor writing and execution (at times). TFA was technically a better movie on its own but it was a much easier one to make. It's also a poor start of a new trilogy from a storytelling perspective.
Yeah he goes on to be incredibly strong, but you have to take the EU with a pinch of salt. None of it is canon anymore, because it was largely bullshit. There were some legit stories in there like the Thrawn trilogy but by and large the expanded universe was a load of different writers all sitting down thinking 'hmm how do I make my book the best, I know, I'll write a guy who can explode planets by clicking his fingers, because noone else can do that. I'll make a guy who can just kill 100 men by blinking'. Obviously that's an exaggeration, but it was a confusing mess of overpowered characters and mediocre stories with a smattering of decency amongst it. I read one once where Obi Wan was on an adventure with Qui Gon and he got captured and managed to resist having his mind being wiped by a droid by holding a pebble tightly in his hand that Qui Gon had given him for his birthday. Imagine that was in TFA, and when asked how she managed to push Kylo out of her head, Rey replied 'oh I just held that rock you gave me and focused really hard on it.' It would get torn to shreds.
Kylo isn't clearly stronger at all. At the end of the first film, Rey is able to pull the lightsaber instead of him, then she takes his off him and leaves him out cold on the floor.
In the second film, he's unable to deal with the guards whereas she is, and then they draw in the pulling the lightsaber rematch.
The fact that you have to explain away the result of practically every altercation she has, including ignoring the film's own explanation of what happened should be a clue that it's time to re-examine your position.
To be fair, from what I've seen in this thread you're the one who's being told everyone else that you're wrong and then you're standing there all arrogant claiming that you're having to explain things to them and that they have to reevaluate. Maybe the more likely scenario is that you're just stubbornly clinging to something without being objective, and you're the one who refuses to accept something.
So now your argument is that the echo chamber is always right?
I just rewatched the Rey Vs Ren lightsaber fight. After her closed eyes feel the force moment, she demolishes him. Then she continues to be portrayed as stronger in the second film, and also ends a duel with Luke Skywalker with a lightsaber to his throat. So far the only arguments I've been presented with are that things that happened in the film didn't actually happen, or that they don't count because reasons.
No, but it's funny how you always go to extremes. My argument is that you're here telling everyone else that their eyes don't work and that yours are the only ones that do. While quoting things that simply just never happened.
I've mentioned 3 things so that you claim never happened, so let's go back to basics, tell me which of these things never happened:
- Rey ends her duel with Ren stood tall while he's disarmed on the floor.
- Rey ends her duel with Luke Skywalker with him hovering an inch above the floor with a lightsaber to his throat.
- Rey is able to defeat her half of the Imperial guard, whereas Ren is unable to escape a headlock and requires her help to escape.
That's my major criticism too. It's like they got to The Last Jedi and the new director wasn't interested in solving the mysteries set up in the last one so he either didn't explain them at all, Who the feck is Snoke?, or spent as little time answering them as possible, Rey's parents.
And now JJ Abrams is back for the third one and so will he go back to that and explore those questions or will he just set up more questions that don't get answered for the next trilogy? It feels surprisingly thrown together for such a massive film series.
I'm not annoyed because they didn't pursue a particular story, but I am annoyed they chose to retell the same one. That's the difference. I think it would have made more sense as a story to have carried on from where they left off as opposed to rendering the events of the original trilogy redundant so they could just retell it. That's what I think makes them boring. My comment about what they should've done was more a way in which to avoid that than any butthurt head canon that didn't materialise. They'd be showing us something new, and likely more interesting.
Doesn't that scene actually have Kylo Ren fighting way more than Rey, who struggles to kill one guard at a time?
Ok, well that I can agree with. Although the criticism is probably better directed at TFA than TLJ. Blatantly ripping off A New Hope was a cop out, that’s fair criticism. From that starting point, though, this movie didn’t do too badly. It had a load of generic blockbuster tropes but, at the very least, wasn’t a remake of a previous Star Wars movie.
Yeah, that didn't happen. Maybe you're thinking of Empire?
This is a problem with most major blockbuster movies though with multiple parts. Most of the DC/Marvel movies will often have various directors who aren't really aware/don't care about any larger vision that fans may project onto the film because they're solely there to meet certain expectations and make money.
The original trilogy despite its quality was arguably sort of like this too, and had a ton of problems similar to the current one. Vader wasn't written in as Luke's dad till after ANH. Leia wasn't Luke's sister until the last one. Han was only ever frozen in carbonite in case he didn't do the final film. The original ending changed. The Emperor was never really explained and got killed off after about 10-15 mins of screentime. Boba Fett shows up and gets his arse handed to him so quickly into ROTJ he'd make Phasma look competent by comparison.
It's obviously fair to criticise certain flaws when they do arise but anyone expecting a grand vision is probably going to be disappointed, I reckon.
It happened and it was bad that happened. However, you cannot dismiss that Ren got a blast from Chewbacca, which would have killed most of people, so he was very injured. He was also emotionally down after killing his father. And finally, he wasn't trying to kill her, but to turn her.
Come on, this is unfair, and you know it. Luke wasn't even trying and he was unable to use the Force. Until Rey used the Force, Luke was toying with her. Then of course that she won, but that is hardly a fair fight, one with the Force and the lightsaber, the other without neither. This has been explained to you repeatedly, but you are ignoring it. It is like saying that some random thin and not strong guy with a machine gun in a tank can kill Anthony Joshua and so is stronger than him.
Pretty sure that Ren takes more guards than Rey but have to rewatch the scene. Still, Ren defeated all of his guards bar one, and most likely, even without Rey's help would have finished him soon.
Probably so, but UK/France/US weren't happy to totally destroy Germany after the first world war, while New Republic was willing to destroy everything from the Empire.
Anyway, I think that it is a very lazy writing.
In the first film Rey (having spent most of the fight barely surviving against someone who wasn't even trying to kill her) does indeed triumph over Ren at the last minute - because he's in a weakend state. We know that's what happened because a character in TLJ literally tells us that's what happened.
In this film we know that Rey and Ren are roughly equals, again because the film's characters literally tell us that's the case. In fact them being equals was something of a plot point.
Hardly reads like the films making her stronger than everyone else.
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Not disagreeing, just checking. What specific scene(s) was made to be that as a plot point?
Took a hefty cocktail of painkillers a half an hour ago so I can't remember jack shit about the movie right now, but want to try and follow the thread.
I suspect you're trolling, but I'll indulge - how would you say the Rey Vs Luke duel ended?
Luke basically said that he has seen this type of power only once, in Ben Solo (for some reason Luke has forgot about the Emperor - or even Vader/Yoda - but I guess that getting electroshocked has long term memory damage).Not disagreeing, just checking. What specific scene(s) was made to be that as a plot point?
Took a hefty cocktail of painkillers a half an hour ago so I can't remember jack shit about the movie right now, but want to try and follow the thread.
There is also the scene with the lightsaber when neither of them is able to get the lightsaber, and so it gets broken in halves.
Snoke saying something like 'that he has thought that it is Luke the champion of the light side and as powerful as Ren, but instead it was you' to Rey.
Not disagreeing, just checking. What specific scene(s) was made to be that as a plot point?
Took a hefty cocktail of painkillers a half an hour ago so I can't remember jack shit about the movie right now, but want to try and follow the thread.
Fair enough.There's a bit where Snoke says that he told Ren his equal in the lightside would rise up to meet him and that was Rey. Given all the talk about the force awakening in the first film and the force finding balance in this one, I read that as an actual plot point for what was going on across the three film force-wise? Especially with the film finding other ways to link the two as equals as well. Though I might be wrong.
With her holding the lightsaber nowhere near his throat
Like, he is literally nowhere near it. You've repeated the same thing multiple times now so the whole "I wasn't being literal" line isn't really going to wash.I think we're not very far apart on this - I get what they're trying to do, the second film they keep talking about balance and how Rey and Ren are equals, I just think they've handled it really badly, as most of the fights have ended up in her favour.
With her holding the lightsaber nowhere near his throat
So him being beaten and on the floor staring down the barrel of a lightsaber doesn't count unless she moves an inch or two closer? Come on man.
How it ended is essentially Rey with a lightsaber and the force bested Luke. Thats perfectly fair but it is not a sign of Rey being stronger or better. If Luke had kicked her ass half the world would be crying "but she had a lightsaber and the force". That scene perfectly showed Luke was easily superior and Rey only won because Luke was cut off. That doesn't mean she's better. Leicester got a draw with United the last day but I think it was clear who was superior The film made clear in no uncertain terms Luke and Snoke were far superior to Rey.
In fact Luke projects himself across the galaxy where as Kylo clearly tells Rey and I'm paraphrasing here "You don't have this kind of power" when they are being manipulated by Snoke and having their little virtual meetings.
I agree that they were trying to go the equals route, at least in this film, but in my opinion it's been handled badly (like a lot of stuff in these new films).
There's a bit where Snoke says that he told Ren his equal in the lightside would rise up to meet him and that was Rey. Given all the talk about the force awakening in the first film and the force finding balance in this one, I read that as an actual plot point for what was going on across the three film force-wise? Especially with the film finding other ways to link the two as equals as well. Though I might be wrong.
I'd agree to that being a plot-point. Was probably those 2 conversations and the lightsaber scene i couldn't piece together. At least it's more or less spelled out that they were equals within the force then.
There you go again, you literally can't make a point without massively exaggerating, then accuse others of making stuff up to help their point. The only time he "stares down the barrel" is when she offers it to him in a reprise of the beginning, and he again refuses.
It's not exaggerating at all, the lightsaber is in his face and he's on the floor. But I suppose you needed something to latch on to in order to ignore the rest of it.
He's on the floor ( hovering just above as I suspect this will be your next "wild exaggeration") and she's stood above him holding a lightsaber pointed at him.