Film Star Wars: Episode VIII

[Scarecrow]

The original trilogy despite its quality was arguably sort of like this too, and had a ton of problems similar to the current one. Vader wasn't written in as Luke's dad till after ANH. Leia wasn't Luke's sister until the last one. Han was only ever frozen in carbonite in case he didn't do the final film. The original ending changed. The Emperor was never really explained and got killed off after about 10-15 mins of screentime. Boba Fett shows up and gets his arse handed to him so quickly into ROTJ he'd make Phasma look competent by comparison.

It's obviously fair to criticise certain flaws when they do arise but anyone expecting a grand vision is probably going to be disappointed, I reckon.

Yeah, those are fair points.

My biggest problem with Star Wars is the lack of complexity and world building but I suppose the simplicity and unpretentiousness of the original trilogy were what made it so personal and charming.

I keep thinking of the franchise as having the potential of a LOTR-in-space fantasy epic but I suppose it was never meant to be anything more then a simple adventure story and it's my problem for being disappointed.

I liked the premise of the prequels and the story expansion but then they were awfully directed and written. Their failure kind of killed the idea of building a wider world, I think, if there ever was one. It's present in the animations and books etc., of course, but those are much lower-risk mediums.

 

[Ubik]

It's not exaggerating at all, the lightsaber is in his face and he's on the floor. But I suppose you needed something to latch on to in order to ignore the rest of it.

He's on the floor ( hovering just above as I suspect this will be your next "wild exaggeration") and she's stood above him holding a lightsaber pointed at him.

Wait wait wait, so the part where you said "lightsaber at his throat" on three separate occasions is actually the part when she's offering it to him to take? That's fantastic. However could he escape from that!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah, those are fair points.

My biggest problem with Star Wars is the lack of complexity and world building but I suppose the simplicity and unpretentiousness of the original trilogy were what made it so personal and charming.

I keep thinking of the franchise as having the potential of a LOTR-in-space fantasy epic but I suppose it was never meant to be anything more then a simple adventure story and it's my problem for being disappointed.

I liked the premise of the prequels and the story expansion but then they were awfully directed and written. Their failure kind of killed the idea of building a wider world, I think, if there ever was one. It's present in the animations and books etc., of course, but those are much lower-risk mediums.

Exactly!

Which is why the prequels were such a misstep and the last two have felt like a return to form.

 

[Zarlak]

I've mentioned 3 things so that you claim never happened, so let's go back to basics, tell me which of these things never happened:

- Rey ends her duel with Ren stood tall while he's disarmed on the floor.

- Rey ends her duel with Luke Skywalker with him hovering an inch above the floor with a lightsaber to his throat.

- Rey is able to defeat her half of the Imperial guard, whereas Ren is unable to escape a headlock and requires her help to escape.

Nice revisionism there. Actually, what you said is that Rey beat the most powerful everybody within minutes of meeting them, which was a massive exaggeration. You said that Rey beat Ren every time they fought, before having to correct yourself when you realised the first time she actually got captured immediately and tcouldn' do a thing, and you also said she beat him the second time - which she didn't. She was actually dead to rights, about to die, completely fecked (and that got a good minute or so of screentime so unless you fell asleep, you couldn't have missed it) against someone preoccupied with their insides falling out and in great pain until she got the same lucky deus ex moment that Luke had at the Death Star. You can acknowledge that can't you, that if you put two people against each other and one of them is extremely wounded that they're going to be at a disadvantage, right? So to recap, he was at a disadvantage and preoccupied with holding his insides in place, and yet he still almost killed her until she had her Luke at Death Star moment. In light of that, to then try and say she's shown herself to be more powerful than him is just ignorant of any kind of understanding of context or circumstance. If all you can focus on is the end result, rather than the entire picture then that's simply flawed thinking.

So so far, all of what you originally said never happened. You then said she beat Luke in a duel, she never had a duel with Luke, she knocked him over when he was shut out from the force. Then he let it back in and went total badass. Everyone else in the thread can see this, even Revan who is on your side for half of it is telling you that you're wrong about this. Meanwhile you're sniping away at everyone with your arrogance as if they're blind with little jibey comments. We all saw the film, we all processed what happened, you can either interpret everything including circumstance or you can just fixate on one aspect of it and ignore everything else.

 

[The Hilton]

Wait wait wait, so the part where you said "lightsaber at his throat" on three separate occasions is actually the part when she's offering it to him to take? That's fantastic. However could he escape from that!

At the end of the fight she knocks him down and holds it in his face. Now you're trying to claim the fight was an elaborate "hand over the lightsaber" dance?

Anyway this is beyond ridiculous now, we're just going round in circles, so I'm stepping out. All the best mate.

 

[Drainy]

Me personally, I loved this film. I cannot wait for Rey to defeat Ren and join The Avengers.

 

[Zarlak]

How it ended is essentially Rey with a lightsaber and the force bested Luke. Thats perfectly fair but it is not a sign of Rey being stronger or better. If Luke had kicked her ass half the world would be crying "but she had a lightsaber and the force". That scene perfectly showed Luke was easily superior and Rey only won because Luke was cut off. That doesn't mean she's better. Leicester got a draw with United the last day but I think it was clear who was superior The film made clear in no uncertain terms Luke and Snoke were far superior to Rey.

In fact Luke projects himself across the galaxy where as Kylo clearly tells Rey and I'm paraphrasing here "You don't have this kind of power" when they are being manipulated by Snoke and having their little virtual meetings.

This is the part that he is either incapable of understanding, or does understand but is trying to save face. The end result does not mean as much as he's making it out to, sometimes results happen that are either unlikely, or a victim of circumstance, it's not indicative of anything on a wider scale. Only what happened in that one instance. Just because she stood tall at the end, does not mean she is more powerful. It's really not a difficult notion to grasp.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

So him being beaten and on the floor staring down the barrel of a lightsaber doesn't count unless she moves an inch or two closer? Come on man.

The fight with Luke has him parrying her for a bit with relative ease - his problem is he has absolutely no desire to harm her in any way. He gets impatient, grabs her stick with his free hand and chucks it away. Rey force grabs her lightsabre - surprising Luke with her aggression. Luke falls backwards and uses the force to hover slightly above the ground. The reverse shot of this is then Rey standing above him but with the Light Sabre close to her chest and pointing upwards (almost like a starting stance). There's genuinely no way to tell whether she'd be able to finish Luke off because she lets go of her anger and Luke is not forced to call on the force to protect himself further (if he should even want to).

Sure the scene is yet another one which ends with Rey prevailing but it doesn't end in the way you say.

 

[The Hilton]

Essay

You avoided the question entirely, again. Like I said to someone else, I don't have time to talk round in circles anymore.

It's good for you that you're so passionate about what in my book are really low effort films, as Disney will be churning them out for a while.

Have a great day.

 

[Ramshock]

Saw it again yesterday. Was just as enjoyable.

 

[Heardy]

I'm not a purist but as a film without knowing the ins or outs or putting the original trilogy on a pedestal I thought if was great fun.

What was with Carrie Fishers voice though - she sounds like an entirely different person to when she was younger. weird.

But if that's my main complaint I can' moan too much about the film.

 

[Revan]

Yeah, those are fair points.

My biggest problem with Star Wars is the lack of complexity and world building but I suppose the simplicity and unpretentiousness of the original trilogy were what made it so personal and charming.

I keep thinking of the franchise as having the potential of a LOTR-in-space fantasy epic but I suppose it was never meant to be anything more then a simple adventure story and it's my problem for being disappointed.

I liked the premise of the prequels and the story expansion but then they were awfully directed and written. Their failure kind of killed the idea of building a wider world, I think, if there ever was one. It's present in the animations and books etc., of course, but those are much lower-risk mediums.

Unfortunately, this is true. The prequels had a decent story but the first two movies were so bad at virtually every other element (including Samuel L Jackson sounding like an idiot), that made them bad. A bit like a book with decent story but the writing is that of a 12 years old teenager, and so by the half of the book, you just throw it away and don't give a shit about the story.

Star Wars EU has many complex stories. When Thrawn trilogy was released it was the second best selling sci-fi of all time (after Dune) and it had a far more complex story than the original trilogy. KOTOR is acclaimed as one of the best Western RPGs of all time and it has a somehow complex story, with its sequel having in my opinion the best story in Star Wars. Then you have the Darth Bane trilogy which had a great story, but ridiculously bad writing. And so on...But yep, it is difficult seeing anything like that being made as a movie, the risk is too high. Just look at Blade Runner 2 who I thought was an excellent movie and treated complex themes, but it couldn't even break even, while shit like Marvel movies reach a billion dollars. Most of people want blockbusters to be simple and brainless, try to inject them some complicated stuff with moral dilemma, and it just fails in box office (unless it is The Dark Knight).

 

[Revan]

1.

2 Debatable

3. Agreed

1. Good point, totally forgot about Luke being a dick there (second photo).

2. Darth Zannah from EU might be the only character ever in Star Wars who used the Force to do ridiculously powerful things without virtually any training. Until Rey.

3. My biggest problem with the new trilogy.

 

[Cheesy]

I'm not a purist but as a film without knowing the ins or outs or putting the original trilogy on a pedestal I thought if was great fun.

What was with Carrie Fishers voice though - she sounds like an entirely different person to when she was younger. weird.

But if that's my main complaint I can' moan too much about the film.

Cocaine, probably. Lots of cocaine.

 

[Zarlak]

You avoided the question entirely, again. Like I said to someone else, I don't have time to talk round in circles anymore.

It's good for you that you're so passionate about what in my book are really low effort films, as Disney will be churning them out for a while.

Have a great day.

I replied to the very question you posted, which was asking what you'd made up, with a list of the things you'd made up. You're unbelievable. I'll leave it to everyone else in this thread to quite easily see what you're doing.

 

[Reiver]

Saw it again today and liked it no more or less than the first time.
I'm not sure where it's going but my guess is they are going to end on a set up relatively close to the end of Jedi: Empire/First Order still in a relatively strong position; relatively small band of rebels, having scored some victories but with a lot of work still to do; almost no force users who have to train up the next gen.
The difference this time being that more films are going to get made relatively quickly. So the film's we would have liked to see after Jedi will get made this time. This will allow Disney to go full on corporate synergy and continue the story through film, TV, books and comics. I don't mean this as a negative comment btw.

 

[Bobski]

Just thinking about all the Disney films and the only one that I could say that I enjoyed was Rogue One. It had its flaws, too many characters, poor pacing, takes a long time to really get going, but the gritty, serious nature of it just appeals to me more than the overly comedic TFA/TLJ. Created an emotional response, ended very strongly, the Vader sequence could rightfully be called fan service but it is brilliantly done, especially paired with Jyn/Cassian facing their end on the beach. You feel the desperation behind what the rebels are doing.

Kill off main characters in TFA/TLJ and my immediate response is irritation at how poorly it was done and the lack of emotional weight in the scenes.

 

[Hed Zitin]

Just been to see this. Absolutely shameless the way they shoved all these cute animals all over the film just to sell more merchandise. Absolutely killed the immersion.

Snoke.. Talk about a main character that is absolutely meaningless.

It would of been alright, but those things really smeared the film.

 

[Edgio]

I enjoyed it. Thought it was the best entry since ROTJ.

Sure, there were a few missteps but I was entertained and it was the first SW film to properly hold my attention since the OT. I thought Snoke was shit anyway, so wasn't fussed about that - made for a great scene. I actually felt what they did with Luke was alright. The force projection was awesome and Kylo going apeshit when he realised he wasn't there was gold. Tricked by the old master.

 

[Revan]

Saw it again today and liked it no more or less than the first time.
I'm not sure where it's going but my guess is they are going to end on a set up relatively close to the end of Jedi: Empire/First Order still in a relatively strong position; relatively small band of rebels, having scored some victories but with a lot of work still to do; almost no force users who have to train up the next gen.
The difference this time being that more films are going to get made relatively quickly. So the film's we would have liked to see after Jedi will get made this time. This will allow Disney to go full on corporate synergy and continue the story through film, TV, books and comics. I don't mean this as a negative comment btw.

I think that the new trilogy will be set on some other time and won't have any Skywalker.

They are already making a shitload of books (not reading most of them cause it is clear that EU isn't an important thing for Disney), and I think it is pretty certain that there will be a TV show in the future.

 

[Revan]

I enjoyed it. Thought it was the best entry since ROTJ.

Sure, there were a few missteps but I was entertained and it was the first SW film to properly hold my attention since the OT. I thought Snoke was shit anyway, so wasn't fussed about that - made for a great scene. I actually felt what they did with Luke was alright. The force projection was awesome and Kylo going apeshit when he realised he wasn't there was gold. Tricked by the old master.

Did he? I mean, he died in the process, which is what Ren wanted all along.

He died for saving Leia and an another half of dozen incompetent people. Hardly worth it, I would say.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Did he? I mean, he died in the process, which is what Ren wanted all along.

He died for saving Leia and an another half of dozen incompetent people. Hardly worth it, I would say.

Come on, you’re letting your dislike for the movie mess with youd head now. That “half a dozen incompetent people” included the person who the fecking film is named after!

 

[caid]

Come on, you’re letting your dislike for the movie mess with youd head now. That “half a dozen incompetent people” included the person who the fecking film is named after!

The last jedi was luke skywalker actually.
Rey isn't a jedi and technically she didn't need saving

 

[Revan]

Come on, you’re letting your dislike for the movie mess with youd head now. That “half a dozen incompetent people” included the person who the fecking film is named after!

Rey wasn't in that cave/mine, so she was safe all along. In fact, if she didn't do her part (which Luke couldn't know anyway), they would have died despite Luke's sacrifice.

Saving Rey would have been worth it, but give me Luke ahead the combined forces of Leia (who won't be on the new movie anyway and most likely will get killed off-screen), Poe, Finn and Rose.

 

[Ubik]

The last jedi was luke skywalker actually.
Rey isn't a jedi and technically she didn't need saving

He literally says "I will not be the last Jedi".

The whole point of that scene is to respark the rebellion based on one last act as a legend, not just to save the people in the cave. They weren't subtle about this in the film, adding a whole coda to ram it home.

 

[Edgio]

Did he? I mean, he died in the process, which is what Ren wanted all along.

He died for saving Leia and an another half of dozen incompetent people. Hardly worth it, I would say.

Died, or ascended? The film seemed to be pushing it as positive. He'll be back, blue glow or not. Besides, didn't he only give Rey two of the lessons he promised her (I may be wrong)?

Those incompetent people are the resistance in this film. No resistance = no Star Wars. They have some decent people with them too in Rey, Poe and Finn.

The thing I was a bit miffed about is the fact that Kylo Ren doesn't feel dangerous enough yet - he isn't exactly a Vader-like presence. Abrams is gonna have to deal with that, quickly.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Rey wasn't in that cave/mine, so she was safe all along. In fact, if she didn't do her part (which Luke couldn't know anyway), they would have died despite Luke's sacrifice.

Saving Rey would have been worth it, but give me Luke ahead the combined forces of Leia (who won't be on the new movie anyway and most likely will get killed off-screen), Poe, Finn and Rose.

ORLY?

If he’s able to project his likeness onto a different flipping planet, I’d say he’s well capable of keeping an eye on what his protégée is up to meanwhile.

 

[Revan]

Died, or ascended? The film seemed to be pushing it as positive. He'll be back, blue glow or not.

Those incompetent people are the resistance in this film. No resistance = no Star Wars. They have some decent people with them too in Rey, Poe and Finn.

The thing I was a bit miffed about is the fact that Kylo Ren doesn't feel dangerous enough yet - he isn't exactly a Vader-like presence. Abrams is gonna have to deal with that, quickly.

Died/ascended. He won't be able to influence things directly anymore, he's essentially now to Rey what Ben was to him.

The Resistence got shafted on these movies. Those 7 or so people that survived have nothing, and the only one capable of doing something not entirely stupid and not entirely pointless is Rey, who as I said, didn't need saving.

Agree on this. Vader was terrifying in the old trilogy, despite that he did feck all for most part. I still cannot take Ren that much seriously, though to be fair, he is more Anakin emo at this stage, rather than Darth Vader. Regardless, JJ needs to make him more terrifying, but that is hard considering that he has already killed Han, Snoke (and you might say was the reason why Luke died) and still looks somehow as a noob. Him killing one or two of the lesser protagonists at the beginning of the next movie, would probably be a good idea.

The only thing I liked about this trilogy, is that all cards are open for the next movie, and we have no idea what is going to happen.

 

[Edgio]

ORLY?

If he’s able to project his likeness onto a different flipping planet, I’d say he’s well capable of keeping an eye on what his protégée is up to meanwhile.

That's not even mentioning the fact he projected a cooler, confident, even arrogant version of himself. Top drawer.

 

[Revan]

ORLY?

If he’s able to project his likeness onto a different flipping planet, I’d say he’s well capable of keeping an eye on what his protégée is up to meanwhile.

Fair point, I'll give you that.

 

[caid]

He literally says "I will not be the last Jedi".

The whole point of that scene is to respark the rebellion based on one last act as a legend, not just to save the people in the cave. They weren't subtle about this in the film, adding a whole coda to ram it home.

I know, i loved the end. Hell i loved the whole film.
But the title was referring to Luke who at that point in time is the last jedi.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Rey wasn't in that cave/mine, so she was safe all along. In fact, if she didn't do her part (which Luke couldn't know anyway), they would have died despite Luke's sacrifice.

Saving Rey would have been worth it, but give me Luke ahead the combined forces of Leia (who won't be on the new movie anyway and most likely will get killed off-screen), Poe, Finn and Rose.

No need, we can have lifelike Leia.

 

[Edgio]

Died/ascended. He won't be able to influence things directly anymore, he's essentially now to Rey what Ben was to him.

Assuming we've already seen how far his projection skills go

 

[Revan]

No need, we can have lifelike Leia.

They said that they are not going to do a Tarkin with her. I think that they missed a trick by not swapping her with Admiral Purplehead for the sacrifice, it would have been a minimal effort to do so, and the sacrifice would have meant something to the watchers.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I know, i loved the end. Hell i loved the whole film.
But the title was referring to Luke who at that point in time is the last jedi.

I assumed the title was deliberately ambiguous. We go in expecting it to refer to Luke and leave realising it was about Rey.

 

[RedSky]

They said that they are not going to do a Tarkin with her. I think that they missed a trick by not swapping her with Admiral Purplehead for the sacrifice, it would have been a minimal effort to do so, and the sacrifice would have meant something to the watchers.

Agreed. I guess it's because they wanted her for episode 9 and given she died couldn't reshoot without using CGI.

 

[caid]

I assumed the title was deliberately ambiguous. We go in expecting it to refer to Luke and leave realising it was about Rey.

I kind of see it differently - becoming a jedi requires you to build your own lightsaber (something Rey will have to do now luke's and the skywalker's lightsaber is broken)
and luke didn't give her a very traditional jedi training.
She isn't a jedi yet and whether she becomes a traditional jedi at a later point seems kind of doubtful to me really.

Luke is the only jedi left in the universe at the start of the movie and after burning down the last jedi temple
it seems inevitable that a large portion of the teachings are going to be lost which kind of seems the point.
The film did go a long way to wiping the slate clean on what being a jedi involves. Breaking the skywalker lightsaber being a nice little metaphor for that.

 

[Revan]

Agreed. I guess it's because they wanted her for episode 9 and given she died couldn't reshoot without using CGI.

Oh, for sure, but it could have been literally 20 seconds of CGI and it would have made the movie better, while not having the need of giving Leia an off-screen death.

 

[Ubik]

Oh, for sure, but it could have been literally 20 seconds of CGI and it would have made the movie better, while not having the need of giving Leia an off-screen death.

Nah, he needed to see Carrie at the end.

 

[Untied]

I saw this again last night.

First time, I didn’t like it.

Second time, I really really hated it.

It’s an utter mess. Without writing about the whole film, I think its inattention to theme, character and motivation can be summed up by exploring what is actually my favourite scene, Yoda appearing to Luke.

1. Luke is going to burn down the tree and the books because the Jedi need to end

2. Yoda appears and does the task for him because he hesitates

3. The message is “the books aren’t that important and Luke needs to attend to Rey in the here and now”

4. But Rey actually had taken the books. So despite lines of dialogue exploring their unimportance as we watch them burn, actually they are important?

5. So perhaps Yoda did this to motivate Luke to attend to Rey or make sure he trains her?

6. As a result Luke then appears as a ghost to rescue the resistance (where Rey is not). And then dies from the effort so he won’t be able to train Rey?

The entire film is built from moments like this. Scenes that at their surface level read as coherent (and even have some beautiful moments. That Yoda dialogue about failure is wonderful). BUT, there is absolutely no attention paid to character motivation, consequence, and this continual desire from Johnson to undercut expectations is utterly tiresome and ruins the movie: “You thought the Jedi books were burnt because I spelt that out, explored why that was important and used it as learning lesson for the main character. HAHAH actually they weren’t burnt.”


EDIT: Just another example, so you know I am not over indexing on a single scene.

Finn/Rose are looking for the codebreaker. They are locked up for a parking misdemeanour and escape. They meet Benicio Del Toro, but turn down a deal with him.

At this point their motivation/aim is still to find the original codebreaker and save the resistance. So they escape through the stables on the space horses.

And then they smash through the casino. They should be looking for the codebreaker there right? But no, they just smash through it. It’s not “Quick find the codebreaker before the police catch us”, it’s just “Run from the police”.

And then Finn says they need to get back to their ship? And that’s what they try to do. But where are they going to go? Their only lead on the codebreaker is that he is in the casino. If their mission fails the resistance is doomed (to their knowledge). So at the climax of this side-plot Finn’s motivations and intentions are completely unclear and at odds with what the audience would expect.

And that’s just the plot/character level. I haven’t even begun to delve into the further thematic mess of “it’s all shades of grey and a military industrial complex” etc.