Film Star Wars: Episode VIII

[Revan]

I don't know how you can have a problem with Rey but not have a problem with Leia flying through space with the force when she hasn't demonstrated the ability to do anything like that in any Star Wars canon. She's somewhat force sensitive and has been able to 'feel' things happening. She didn't show any force potential as a child, she never used the force she just feels when Luke calls out and Han dies, she then does something we've never seen before which is zoom through space like Superman when all canon we've seen so far is instant death when out in space. But yet she manages to reanimate herself and zoom back to the ship. Yet Rey barely staying alive against someone who was trying to hold their insides together is a problem.

Leia has the same ability as Luke, just that she hasn't developed it. What she did was less than what Rey did, and both of them have zero training. However, Leia has had the Force for decades, in addition to actually living with people who were Force users.

The film is legit terrible Revan, please don't defend that turd. It's ridiculed by everyone for a good reason.

I don't see the comparisons with GoTG tbh. Looking back at both films, they both include humour, but GoTG it's one of the key components to sell the film. It plays on nostalgia with old songs and uses witty dialogue. The only part of the TLJ that reminded me of GoTG was the terrible opening of TLJ with Poe doing that absurd shit. That annoyed me greatly and seemed totally out of place. Hopefully, they never, ever do that shit again. The rest of the TLJ humour was "cute" humour and while I thought they used too much of it, I didn't overly mind. Hard to come up with a comparison if i'm honest, felt a bit like Shrek humour at times actually.

Star Wars has always had humour, mainly to do with C3PO and R2D2 with the occasional witty line with Han/Chewy/Leia. Heck even the first time we meet Yoda is funny. Prequels humour was daft, childish shit with Jar Jar.

The film is terrible, no doubt there. I just said that its story wasn't bad, if you can overlook all the other things (humor, dialogue, acting, Jar Jar etc).

I totally disagree about the humor here. It was as bad as in the first two prequels.

Agree about Star Wars having always humor (Revenge and Rogue One were darker and had less humor than usual), the OT did it good, The Force Awakens did it good, this and the first two prequels (and the small bits of humor in Revenge) were done badly IMO.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

We don't even know what Luke used to pilot either tbf (at least from the movies anyway, i'm sure there's been various book shit to fill the gaps).

We do know actually, and from the film. T-16.



Here, in Royal Language.

 

[RedSky]

Leia has the same ability as Luke, just that she hasn't developed it. What she did was less than what Rey did, and both of them have zero training. However, Leia has had the Force for decades, in addition to actually living with people who were Force users.

The film is terrible, no doubt there. I just said that its story wasn't bad, if you can overlook all the other things (humor, dialogue, acting, Jar Jar etc).

I totally disagree about the humor here. It was as bad as in the first two prequels.

Agree about Star Wars having always humor (Revenge and Rogue One were darker and had less humor than usual), the OT did it good, The Force Awakens did it good, this and the first two prequels (and the small bits of humor in Revenge) were done badly IMO.

From my perspective the problem was that the humour started off badly so whenever more humour popped up it reminded you of the bad humour before. Remove that opening scene from the film and i'd have been fine with it. The Chewbacca scene for example made me smile, that was inoffensive and I felt worked with Chewy as a character. The stuff with BB8 got a bit stupid with the AT-ST on Snokes ship but the humour in the section with the casino was fine. The bits on Lukes planet was also good, found all of that interesting from a Lore point of view. Also the caretakers reminded me of creatures from the film Dark Crystal so that worked for me.

 

[Zarlak]

Leia has the same ability as Luke, just that she hasn't developed it. What she did was less than what Rey did, and both of them have zero training. However, Leia has had the Force for decades, in addition to actually living with people who were Force users.

Come on man, you're making excuses here. She showed no force potential as a child whatsoever, she knew nothing about who she was until she was a grown adult. She's displayed force power twice in the films, once when Luke called to her and once when Han died. You're making such a massive leap to say that she has the same ability as Luke but just hasn't developed it. Nowhere in any material that I've ever seen has that been asserted and even if it were true, she'd need training in order to use it - which she has never had. You're literally moaning about Rey doing things with little training despite Luke saying she had enormous power, while being fine with someone doing things with zero training who has never displayed any kind of power beyond rudimentary feelings. It's hypocritical.

 

[RedSky]

We do know actually, and from the film. T-16.



Here, in Royal Language.

It's a vehicle never shown in the films. That's my point.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

It's a vehicle never shown in the films. That's my point.

Context and Luke's confidence in that scene tells us there are similarities of the situations, ships and targets. Not sure we needed to see him piloting that T-16 prior.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Though, Threepio might've rolled his eyes or something.

Translation droids, what do they know...

 

[Ubik]

We don't even know what Luke used to pilot either tbf (at least from the movies anyway, i'm sure there's been various book shit to fill the gaps). But switching from a vehicle like a land speeder which is the only vehicle we see Luke actually piloting to an XWing is a huge leap. Zero combat experience, zero experience of flying in space, no familiarity with the vehicle he was actually flying. Yet he is one of the few pilots to survive and is able to take down the Death Star and the explanation we got from him doing it? Obi Wan: "The force will be with you, always".

Someone said back in the thread and it's a point I agree with. Luke did have stumbling blocks, he was still over powered and did impossible shit but he did also need bailing out now and then. Rey's only ever needed help twice, once when she was captured and yet she managed to escape by herself and the other time when she was about to get killed by Snoke and Kylo switched sides briefly. It's kind of interesting in a way that the only time she's needed rescuing the villain was the one to do it. They probably should have given her more stumbling blocks in TFA, would have been easy enough for Chewy/Solo/Fin to rescue her when she was on the Death Star thing, but thats a fault with TFA and not TLJ.

If you look at what Rey did in this film:

- Mucked about with Luke, basic teaching, didn't really learn much at all. This was less about Rey and more about Luke.
- Confronted Kylo Ren and Snoke, had a fight, she got her ass kicked and survived only thanks to Kylo Ren.
- Goes down to the planet and moves some boulders with the Force, escapes on Falcon.

Not sure how anyone can moan about Rey in this film.

Gets thrown against a tree and knocked out, making Finn fight Ren to stop him taking her away. Then gets rescued by Chewie in the Falcon when the planet's about to kerplode. The only thing that's a bit OTT is the mind trick thing, which I thought would get explained away in this by saying she was a student that got a mind wipe. But meh, it wasn't the first contrivance and nor will it be the last.

 

[The Hilton]

Ren was an emotional wreck from killing his dad, and he was injured from a bowcaster shot when they first fought. He didn't really want to hurt her when they had a lightsaber tug of war in the second film.
Luke said she had incredible power that he'd only seen with Ren before, so he helps to explain how she's able to hold her own against a damaged trained person.

When she "bested" Luke, he wasn't even trying. He'd been detached from the force purposefully, just fighting with sticks. We know she's an accomplished stick fighter from the first film and she used the force to get the sabre, something Luke could have easily done if he'd needed to. He demonstrates his true power by force projecting himself across the galaxy later in the film.

Ren will be a suitable match for her in the next film if they choose that direction.

Don't forget, this is a universe where a kid took down a trade federation blockade by pressing random buttons on a space ship.

It's also a universe where people usually need training to master things.

Contrived excuses why winning is actually losing don't make it any better, and as for Ren she was shown to be stronger than him again in this film - he'd still be in a headlock with the Imperial guard ripoff if it wasn't for Rey.

Your comment about making him a threat if they want to is absolutely correct, and that's my main problem with the new films - there's no sense of direction with them, they're inconsistent and we're told to swallow silly reasoning just for an excuse to set up the next visually impressive set piece.

 

[Member 39557]

It's also a universe where people usually need training to master things.

Contrived excuses why winning is actually losing don't make it any better, and as for Ren she was shown to be stronger than him again in this film - he'd still be in a headlock with the Imperial guard ripoff if it wasn't for Rey.

Your comment about making him a threat if they want to is absolutely correct, and that's my main problem with the new films - there's no sense of direction with them, they're inconsistent and we're told to swallow silly reasoning just for an excuse to set up the next visually impressive set piece.

That's true of 90% of the big budget blockbuster films over the last 10 years unfortunately.

 

[Cheesy]

Even if you ignore the trade dispute in TPM it's still incredibly pointless in regards to the whole prequel trilogy. The central focus isn't introduced until well into the movie and is essentially a different character from the one in the next two films. Obi-Wan spends half of it on a ship as we follow Liam Neeson, whose character serves no purpose because he was never mentioned in the OT and therefore could never really have that much of an impact.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Some of the defences the Last Jedi really want to have their cake and eat it.

You can’t judge it as a stand-alone film. It is just impossible. The story is utter nonsense divorced from its context within the saga.

But when those who didn’t like how it coheres with the rest of the saga, particularly the characterisation of Luke, and it’s abandonment of the threads from TFA, the suggestion is we treat it like a standalone film?

I think it is clear how wrong you are that you think the prequels “appeased fanboys”

Of course you can! Walk in to a cinema. Watch the movie. Decide whether it’s good, bad or indifferent. Same as any other fecking movie. The only Thor movie I’ve ever watched was Ragnarok and I thought it was a decent, if formulaic, blockbuster. Just like this movie. I didn’t need to be massively emotionally invested in Thor’s life history to have an opinion.

 

[The Hilton]

You can't mention false equivalence and then give that example. He was a farmer, who became capable of flying an X-Wing as competently as fighter pilots who have presumably trained their entire lives to do so, before making an impossible shot to blow up the Death Star. There's nothing false about that at all, other than perhaps you don't like how dumb it actually sounds when it's put in its simplest form. The Fiesta to Astra analogy is laughable. It would be more like going from an Astra to a Sherman tank. And I doubt Dave from my estate can drive one of those, or drive in formation, or fire the weaponry, or show any kind of tactical or military prowess whatsoever, no matter how well he can rev his Astra round the streets. And I'm sure if you put the German equivalent of Darth Vader behind him in his own tank, that he's incredibly competent with and feared in, that Dave would be able to shrug him off before shelling his target successfully. If you can't see that, then it's because you don't want to. If you're telling me now that Captain Chesley Sullenberger who landed Flight 1549 in the Hudson river could pilot an F-16 fighter pilot in formation with the Air Force and go on a successful strike mission with them just because he can fly an air liner then I guess we're at an impasse. Luke has as much experience as the crop farmer did in Independence day, and that was just as ridiculous.

EDIT: That's actually a terrible example, because Chesley does have military experience. Replace him with any other standard pilot who works for an airline.

Clearly we're in different camps here, and that's fine, but you're not being at all fair to Luke's story here.

There's plenty of dialogue about how he spends his time on Tatooine flying and shooting rats. So, to recap, his preparation for flying a small ship through a canyon to shoot a tiny, difficult to hit target is his entire youth spent flying through canyons in a slightly smaller ship and shooting tiny difficult to hit targets. They made it so obvious that it he was building towards that moment.

What he didn't do, however, was best the most powerful people in the galaxy within minutes of meeting them.

 

[Cheesy]

Gets thrown against a tree and knocked out, making Finn fight Ren to stop him taking her away. Then gets rescued by Chewie in the Falcon when the planet's about to kerplode. The only thing that's a bit OTT is the mind trick thing, which I thought would get explained away in this by saying she was a student that got a mind wipe. But meh, it wasn't the first contrivance and nor will it be the last.

The force has always been portrayed as something innate and 'within you' anyway as opposed to something you gradually learn and level up in. Yoda talks about that in ESB. Luke's training essentially amounts to a few sessions with Yoda and yet he's eventually able to beat Vader in single combat and inadvertently leads to the demise of the galactic empire. I don't mind Rey pulling certain tricks out of nowhere because it's never really been portrayed as 'to perform this trick, you need X hours of training' etc etc.

 

[The Hilton]

That's true of 90% of the big budget blockbuster films over the last 10 years unfortunately.

Yeah that's very true, but given the wealth of stories around the Star Wars universe they could have adapted, it's really disappointing that we've ended up with what we have.

 

[Zarlak]

Clearly we're in different camps here, and that's fine, but you're not being at all fair to Luke's story here.

There's plenty of dialogue about how he spends his time on Tatooine flying and shooting rats. So, to recap, his preparation for flying a small ship through a canyon to shoot a tiny, difficult to hit target is his entire youth spent flying through canyons in a slightly smaller ship and shooting tiny difficult to hit targets. They made it so obvious that it he was building towards that moment.

What he didn't do, however, was best the most powerful people in the galaxy within minutes of meeting them.

Neither did Rey. I'm not sure if you think I said that Luke did that, or if you believe that Rey did that, but neither of them came close to doing anything like that. That's either me communicating things poorly and you thinking I said that, or you wildly, wildly exaggerating anything Rey has done.

 

[Member 39557]

Yeah that's very true, but given the wealth of stories around the Star Wars universe they could have adapted, it's really disappointing that we've ended up with what we have.

It's essentially what happens when you make films to deadlines. You have 2 years to write, shoot, add special effects, edit and market a film. Corners get cut along the way. Look at the mess DC have made trying to stick to release schedules.

I thought the film was ok. It had its flaws, but there are far worse Star Wars films.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

On the Luke vs Rey training thing, in her opening flipping scene in TFA (long before she met Luke) you could see she was a kick-ass martial artist. Stands to reason she’s need a lot less training than a farmer to be a decent fighter. She didn’t even do much “force” stuff before training with Luke anyway. She could have handled 90% of that skuffle with Ren at the end of TFA based on what she’s already shown much earlier in the movie.

 

[Zarlak]

On the Luke vs Rey training thing, in her opening flipping scene in TFA (long before she met Luke) you could see she was a kick-ass martial artist. Stands to reason she’s need a lot less training than a farmer to be a decent fighter. She didn’t even do much “force” stuff before training with Luke anyway. She could have handled 90% of that skuffle with Ren at the end of TFA based on what she’s already shown much earlier in the movie.

She pulled the lightsaber and did the mind trick on the storm trooper. The lightsaber pull, meh. The mind trick is supposed to be pretty difficult so it's the one legit point that the purists have, though it doesn't help that they use that to then exaggerate everything else. That could all simply get revealed in the next film however if it turns out Rey's parents being nobodies was a lie.

 

[The Hilton]

It's essentially what happens when you make films to deadlines. You have 2 years to write, shoot, add special effects, edit and market a film. Corners get cut along the way. Look at the mess DC have made trying to stick to release schedules.

I thought the film was ok. It had its flaws, but there are far worse Star Wars films.

Yeah I can agree with that, I just really don't like the poor handling of the original characters, that and the lack of originality. If the film didn't have the Star Wars name, it would be a better film in my eyes.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

She pulled the lightsaber and did the mind trick on the storm trooper. The lightsaber pull, meh. The mind trick is supposed to be pretty difficult so it's the one legit point that the purists have, though it doesn't help that they use that to then exaggerate everything else. That could all simply get revealed in the next film however if it turns out Rey's parents being nobodies was a lie.

According to who though? Because I’ve watched every Star Wars movie and am damn sure I’ve never been told about a hierarchy of Force magic tricks, so nothing she did was in any way problematic for me. Or anyone else that isn’t getting hung up on stuff not in the movies.

 

[Minimalist]

Of course you can! Walk in to a cinema. Watch the movie. Decide whether it’s good, bad or indifferent. Same as any other fecking movie. The only Thor movie I’ve ever watched was Ragnarok and I thought it was a decent, if formulaic, blockbuster. Just like this movie. I didn’t need to be massively emotionally invested in Thor’s life history to have an opinion.

It's quite amazing you've had to explain that. That's something I've grown to appreciate more and more now with any movie, book or even video game. A movie should always be able to stand alone without knowing any background. Background knowledge should just enhance something a few clicks but it should not be required.

For this movie in particular, I know at least two people who never watched a Star Wars movie before (or certainly never bothered to familiarise themselves with the story) and both enjoyed The Last Jedi a lot.

 

[Zarlak]

According to who though? Because I’ve watched every Star Wars movie and am damn sure I’ve never been told about a hierarchy of Force magic tricks, so nothing she did was in any way problematic for me. Or anyone else that isn’t getting hung up on stuff not in the movies.

It's not problematic to me either, I'm just pointing out force stuff she did before meeting Luke.

 

[The Hilton]

Neither did Rey. I'm not sure if you think I said that Luke did that, or if you believe that Rey did that, but neither of them came close to doing anything like that. That's either me communicating things poorly and you thinking I said that, or you wildly, wildly exaggerating anything Rey has done.

Except it isn't. She bested Ren, the big bad, in a fight immediately after meeting him. Then she beat Luke Skywalker, the "last hope for the galaxy", after one lesson which was sitting on a rock, and then went back to Ren and showed she's better at dealing with people dressed in red while he got stuck in a headlock. The only person she hasn't swatted aside was Smoke, and he's sliced up on the floor now.

On the Luke vs Rey training thing, in her opening flipping scene in TFA (long before she met Luke) you could see she was a kick-ass martial artist. Stands to reason she’s need a lot less training than a farmer to be a decent fighter. She didn’t even do much “force” stuff before training with Luke anyway. She could have handled 90% of that skuffle with Ren at the end of TFA based on what she’s already shown much earlier in the movie.

It's not that "she's too powerful", as I can accept that she's just really gifted at everything if that's her story. The problem is that it means that there's no credible threat to her left. She should really have Ren and the first order sorted out within the first act of the next film, which means there's going to be a really contrived reason why she hasn't.

 

[Zarlak]

Except it isn't. She bested Ren, the big bad, in a fight immediately after meeting him. Then she beat Luke Skywalker, the "last hope for the galaxy", after one lesson which was sitting on a rock, and then went back to Ren and showed she's better at dealing with people dressed in red while he got stuck in a headlock.

No she didn't. She lost to Ren immediately, and was captured by him. Then after the place exploded, she lost to Ren again. I don't know why people keep pretending otherwise, that simply isn't what happened in the film.

 

[SuperiorXI]

Have you actually watched the movie, or it is just cool to criticize it?

The entire plot of the first movie, was about Palpatine manipulating The Trade Federation to invade Naboo, manipulating Padme (whom in EU he has made Queen in the first place) to call a vote of confidence in the current chancellor, and manipulating the senators to choose him as Supreme Chancellor. Essentially, create the ground to get elected, engineer a war and get elected by being from the same planet when the war happened.

This was half of the plot (the other was the discovery of Anakin) which was perfectly fine. Or it would have been perfectly fine, if it wasn't polluted with bad humor, Jar Jar Binks and terrible CGI who speak with Asian accent.

I always thought this part of the Phantom menace got a bad wrap. It is actually a very good plot foundation. It could have been done better yes, but as you have said if you take out stupid shit like Jar Jar it would have been fine.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's not problematic to me either, I'm just pointing out force stuff she did before meeting Luke.

Ok, grand. The other thing about her is that nobody has any clue about her background. She could be some sort of crazy powerful Jedi 2.0. I’m guess more will be revealed in future movies. Despite this pivotal unknown, assorted Star Wars fans have decided that even the possibility that she’s a quicker learner or more powerful Jedi than their hero, Luke Skywalker, has completely ruined the last two movies. Is it cos she’s a chick?!

 

[Zarlak]

Ok, grand. The other thing about her is that nobody has any clue about her background. She could be some sort of crazy powerful Jedi 2.0. I’m guess more will be revealed in future movies. Despite this pivotal unknown, assorted Star Wars fans have decided that even the possibility that she’s a quicker learner or more powerful Jedi than their hero, Luke Skywalker, has ruined the last two movies. Is it cos she’s a chick?!

Aye, the original film inferred that she was powerful, that Ren knew her from before at some point we haven't seen, and that he knew how powerful she was. The second film didn't address any of that in the slightest, so it would have been nice if that is the case to get more hints to it in this film because to introduce all that right at the end of trilogy might feel a bit Deus Ex. But I'm open to seeing how it all plays out before I judge a story that's intended to be split into three parts and start drawing conclusions about things when I haven't yet seen the conclusion.

 

[Ubik]

Ok, grand. The other thing about her is that nobody has any clue about her background. She could be some sort of crazy powerful Jedi 2.0. I’m guess more will be revealed in future movies. Despite this pivotal unknown, assorted Star Wars fans have decided that even the possibility that she’s a quicker learner or more powerful Jedi than their hero, Luke Skywalker, has ruined the last two movies. Is it cos she’s a chick?!

When Max Landis brought up the Mary Sue thing, some were so keen to say he wasn't sexist. That's aged well. Apropos of nothing - he also said Bright was going to be his Star Wars...heh.

 

[The Hilton]

No she didn't. She lost to Ren immediately, and was captured by him. Then after the place exploded, she lost to Ren again. I don't know why people keep pretending otherwise, that simply isn't what happened in the film.

You're right about being captured, but then we see straight away that she's too powerful for him to mind read.

Then, by the end of the first film Rey is more powerful, and in the second film the gap has grown larger - she defeated Luke and the red people, neither of which Ren could manage.

Anyway, I don't really know what you're trying to argue for. We're splitting hairs over Luke and Rey as if that somehow makes the rest of 7 and 8 coherent.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

When Max Landis brought up the Mary Sue thing, some were so keen to say he wasn't sexist. That's aged well. Apropos of nothing - he also said Bright was going to be his Star Wars...heh.

I’m so out of the loop. Who’s Max Landis and who’s Mary Sue?

Is Bright the new Netflix movie about the Fresh Prince teaming up with an orc? It’s absolute garbage. Makes TLJ seem like Citizen Kane.

 

[kps88]

Do people actually believe Rey "defeated" Luke? He had intentionally sealed himself off from the force at that point and it never came across as a serious fight to me. They were just messing around with sticks. Not like either of them were trying to kill each other.

 

[Zarlak]

You're right about being captured, but then we see straight away that she's too powerful for him to mind read.

Then, by the end of the first film Rey is more powerful, and in the second film the gap has grown larger - she defeated Luke and the red people, neither of which Ren could manage.

Anyway, I don't really know what you're trying to argue for. We're splitting hairs over Luke and Rey as if that somehow makes the rest of 7 and 8 coherent.

She's not too powerful to mind read, he successfully reads her mind and she then rebuffs him. Luke literally says in the film words to the effect of they're both as powerful as each other. We're not really splitting hairs, you're straight up just saying things that didn't happen and using it as a justification for the film being poor. Like Rey beating Ren, that never happened. He beat her both times, effortlessly and despite great physical trauma. You're also revising what happened in the second film which saw them both working together to defeat the red people, Ren managing that until he got into one tiny bit of trouble that Rey helped him out of. That doesn't mean a thing. You're making tiny things seem like massive big deals. Han helped Luke out once, does that make Han more powerful than Luke? No it doesn't, come off it. There's no link there between helping somebody out who is in a bit of bother and it meaning that you're more powerful than them. You're overexaggerating and then saying we're splitting hairs afterwards. She knocked down Luke once, she didn't defeat him in any way. I once knocked down a guy bigger than me. Do you think I could beat him in a fight? Could I feck. Am I more powerful than him? No. The justifications you're giving for your statements just don't hold up. Luke literally projected himself halfway across the galaxy, do you think Rey could do that? But she knocked him over!

It's made abundantly clear in the film that Rey is nowhere close to Luke's power. Knocking him down once doesn't change that. Ronaldo is the best footballer in the world but he's been successfully tackled by shitty defenders. Does that make them better than him? No. It's possible to be the best at something, but on occasion end up in a situation that you could have handled better, or be surprised by something that you should have come out on top. It doesn't reflect anything on a wider scale, only what happened in that specific moment.

 

[Ubik]

I’m so out of the loop. Who’s Max Landis and who’s Mary Sue?

Is Bright the new Netflix movie about the Fresh Prince teaming up with an orc? It’s absolute garbage. Makes TLJ seem like Citizen Kane.

He's the guy that wrote Bright (yes that's the one) and was the one who originally said Rey was a "Mary Sue", a term from fanfiction where a protagonist has no flaws. Something that conspicuously never gets applied to male leads of these kind of things.

He's also the guy that's recently been accused by multiple women of sexual harassment and assault, which was allegedly well known within the industry but he got away with it because his father's a famous director.

 

[Rooney1987]

I’m so out of the loop. Who’s Max Landis and who’s Mary Sue?

Is Bright the new Netflix movie about the Fresh Prince teaming up with an orc? It’s absolute garbage. Makes TLJ seem like Citizen Kane.

Son of John Landis and he wrote Chronicle and a bunch of other movies. He's also big online personality, has a few controversial views on movies. When Force Awakens came out he didn't like the film and seem to appear on most YouTube shows to tell us why. His biggest problem Rey was a Mary Sue because she had no flaw was good at everything, flying, fighting and jedi mind tricks.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He's the guy that wrote Bright (yes that's the one) and was the one who originally said Rey was a "Mary Sue", a term from fanfiction where a protagonist has no flaws. Something that conspicuously never gets applied to male leads of these kind of things.

He's also the guy that's recently been accused by multiple women of sexual harassment and assault, which was allegedly well known within the industry but he got away with it because his father's a famous director.

Ok, gotcha. Thanks. The fecking irony of him calling out a movie character for being too powerful. In Bright he has an unarmed Will Smith almost single-handedely overpower a superhuman villain who’s just taken down a heavily armed Swat team and Latino gang without breaking sweat. All within minutes of having the living shit kicked out of him by another bunch of superhumans. I mean, the whole movie is a pile of toss but if I had to pick out its biggest flaw that would be it.

 

[The Hilton]

She's not too powerful to mind read, he successfully reads her mind and she then rebuffs him. Luke literally says in the film words to the effect of they're both as powerful as each other. We're not really splitting hairs, you're straight up just saying things that didn't happen and using it as a justification for the film being poor. Like Rey beating Ren, that never happened. He beat her both times, effortlessly and despite great physical trauma. You're also revising what happened in the second film which saw them both working together to defeat the red people, Ren managing that until he got into one tiny bit of trouble that Rey helped him out of. That doesn't mean a thing. You're making tiny things seem like massive big deals. Han helped Luke out once, does that make Han more powerful than Luke? No it doesn't, come off it. There's no link there between helping somebody out who is in a bit of bother and it meaning that you're more powerful than them. You're overexaggerating and then saying we're splitting hairs afterwards. She knocked down Luke once, she didn't defeat him in any way. I once knocked down a guy bigger than me. Do you think I could beat him in a fight? Could I feck. Am I more powerful than him? No. The justifications you're giving for your statements just don't hold up. Luke literally projected himself halfway across the galaxy, do you think Rey could do that? But she knocked him over!

It's made abundantly clear in the film that Rey is nowhere close to Luke's power. Knocking him down once doesn't change that. Ronaldo is the best footballer in the world but he's been successfully tackled by shitty defenders. Does that make them better than him? No. It's possible to be the best at something, but on occasion end up in a situation that you could have handled better, or be surprised by something that you should have come out on top. It doesn't reflect anything on a wider scale, only what happened in that specific moment.

You're far too attached to this film to be able to look at it rationally. You're downplaying or ignoring clear plot points. Rey prevents Ren from reading her mind. She then beats him in a 1 on 1 fight (Snoke even says exactly as much in this film). Then, in the only altercation she has with Luke, he's beaten within a minute. And the "tiny bit of trouble" he's in is a headlock he can't break out of without being rescued by Rey. Claiming I'm the one exaggerating while denying these events demonstrates your inability to be impartial.

And you're wrong, I'm not using this as a justification for the film being poor, as they could have dealt with Rey's character brilliantly and it would still be a incoherent and childish. I actually prefer this film to 7 in fairness, as at least they tried a couple of new things - my biggest gripe with all the new ones is the lack of originality.

Anyway, there's nothing to be gained discussing a religion with one of its zealots, which is what this has become for me. I'm glad you were able to enjoy the bits that I considered flaws. It bodes very well for your chances at enjoying the numerous Star Wars films yet to come.

 

[Zarlak]

You're far too attached to this film to be able to look at it rationally. You're downplaying or ignoring clear plot points. Rey prevents Ren from reading her mind. She then beats him in a 1 on 1 fight (Snoke even says exactly as much in this film). Then, in the only altercation she has with Luke, he's beaten within a minute. And the "tiny bit of trouble" he's in is a headlock he can't break out of without being rescued by Rey. Claiming I'm the one exaggerating while denying these events demonstrates your inability to be impartial.

And you're wrong, I'm not using this as a justification for the film being poor, as they could have dealt with Rey's character brilliantly and it would still be a incoherent and childish. I actually prefer this film to 7 in fairness, as at least they tried a couple of new things - my biggest gripe with all the new ones is the lack of originality.

Anyway, there's nothing to be gained discussing a religion with one of its zealots, which is what this has become for me. I'm glad you were able to enjoy the bits that I considered flaws. It bodes very well for your chances at enjoying the numerous Star Wars films yet to come.

I'm not attached at all, I'm looking at it rationally. You're just exaggerating everything. Ren successfully reads her mind, he describes to her what she's seeing in it, the island Luke is on. She then rebuffs him. If she was too powerful for him to read it, he wouldn't have gotten the information to begin with. She wasn't too powerful for him to read it, hence why he read it. Then she managed to push him out.

She doesn't beat him 1 on 1 at all, you're just straight up inventing the film now. The first time he freezes her in place, knocks her out and kidnaps her before she can even do anything. The second time she poses no trouble to him whatsoever and he toys with her until Finn scratches his back, he then immediately despatches of Finn and overpowers Rey, has her bang to rights, about to die, despite trying to hold his insides in place with one hand, still has her dead to rights, he pleads with her to join him and she then has her 'Luke Death Star' moment where she has her one force moment and knocks him back, before the ground opens up separating them. That's a play by play of what happened, go back and watch it again. How you can infer from that that she beat him 1 on 1 is beyond me. It's made pretty clear that if Ren didn't try to lure her to the dark side, he'd have simply killed her without a problem. The pause that he allowed her gave her her Luke moment and is the only reason she isn't dead.

She knocked Luke over, that's it. She knocked him over. You're hyping this into some kind of they had a master level 1 on 1 and she came out victorious. We both know that isn't what happened. Pretty petty to try and pin it on me being a zealot when actually I'm just trying to calm down your over-exaggerations because you didn't enjoy the film and it's affecting your ability to be rational about what actually happened but if it makes you feel better then you do you. Being the best in the world at something doesn't mean that every single time something happens, you win or come out on top and likewise, managing to accomplish something once doesn't mean you're better than the champions of whatever you managed to do. If they had an actual lightsaber battle, with Luke retuned in to the force then he'd effortlessly despatch her, as shown shortly after when Ren who has already bested Rey multiple times couldn't even land a hit on him until Luke let him on purpose. The film makes that painfully obvious.

 

[Revan]

He's the guy that wrote Bright (yes that's the one) and was the one who originally said Rey was a "Mary Sue", a term from fanfiction where a protagonist has no flaws. Something that conspicuously never gets applied to male leads of these kind of things.

He's also the guy that's recently been accused by multiple women of sexual harassment and assault, which was allegedly well known within the industry but he got away with it because his father's a famous director.

Wasn't the term itself (and that of Gary Sue) became famous for being used about Commander Kirk and Spock?

 

[Revan]

You're far too attached to this film to be able to look at it rationally. You're downplaying or ignoring clear plot points. Rey prevents Ren from reading her mind. She then beats him in a 1 on 1 fight (Snoke even says exactly as much in this film). Then, in the only altercation she has with Luke, he's beaten within a minute. And the "tiny bit of trouble" he's in is a headlock he can't break out of without being rescued by Rey. Claiming I'm the one exaggerating while denying these events demonstrates your inability to be impartial.

And you're wrong, I'm not using this as a justification for the film being poor, as they could have dealt with Rey's character brilliantly and it would still be a incoherent and childish. I actually prefer this film to 7 in fairness, as at least they tried a couple of new things - my biggest gripe with all the new ones is the lack of originality.

Anyway, there's nothing to be gained discussing a religion with one of its zealots, which is what this has become for me. I'm glad you were able to enjoy the bits that I considered flaws. It bodes very well for your chances at enjoying the numerous Star Wars films yet to come.

Pretty sure that Luke is beating her with sticks until she calls the Force. Luke has already sealed himself from the Force.

I have had problems with Rey being overpowered, but she didn't really beat Luke.