A positive thread eh, how is one to respond, sod it embrace I say -
Great OP by the way
Great OP by the way
Something special is building at Old Trafford
- Thread starter The Boy
- Start date
In terms of Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, James then yes something special is brewing. Considering how young these four are and how they’ve done this season in front of a mish mash uncreative midfield and blunt attacking full backs. To produce the goals and assists and performances they have done is something special.
So by your own logic, you would have fired Fergie in 1989? After all we had just finished 11th in the league, he had been there three years, and by December were near the relegation zone. For you, the progress he had made was worth nothing? He should have been sacked?
If not, then you're not actually talking from principle. You're just making stuff up to justify your negativity.
Spot on. Great post.
It is rather sad how a section of the fanbase are totally blind to this. Nothing but Woodward exploiting the romanticism and hope that 'one of our own' will be the one to pull the club out of the ashes is keeping Ole in his job. There is no point investing in mediocrity in the hope it will come good, when it is so clear that the same amount of investment could yield exponential returns if properly channeled to a more worthy recipient. Solskjaer has steadied the boat in terms of dressing room atmosphere and general morale, now it is time to bring in a proper coach to build upon this positivity with modern and progressive methods on the field. Of course, the dream that Woodward will go do one as well lives eternal in all of us.
Exactly. Yet Ole-In posters are accused of being thick and romanticising by trying to think outside of the box and for being able to see the clear difference in direction we are headed under Ole compared to the last three ‘experienced managers.’
Talent in the managerial department, possibly. The chasm isn't becuase of "previous managers". It's because of all post SAF managers. All Ole has really done is make a couple of signings that may turn out to be good ones, and sell a few other players. The actual football has been bang average and his record shows it. Forget the record the quality of football shows it too. And it's a bit disingenous to call managers who achieved more than Ole wrong managers while calling him the one to put us 'on the wrong track' given said situation.
And for where it went wrong for us, it's obviously many things. But failing to become a cohesive and fluid modern football side that is tactically with these times is a big part of it. That's one thing that Ole hasn't addressed
Once Ole supporters run out of ideas on how to replay, they straight go down to the over used Fergie example. We should assume any average manager who had a crap first season at any club shouldn't be evaluated till he gets at least 5 years as he might transform into Fergie MK2 after 5 years because one manager in the history of football managed it
I hope you don't think Mourinho built a cohesive and fluid modern football side when he was here. Because he did not. I think he didn't because he is on the downside of his career, he is just not as good as he used to be, and because he did not have enough talented players. Ole also does not have enough talented players but he is building one especially if he gets Bruno.
I didn't say anything like that - you're just making stuff up.
I understand you're not super-rational about your Ole-out obsession, but having an actual argument to make might help your case.
Ole has enough talented players to play quality football, or at least show true progress and real managerial talent. It's a myth that we don't have good players, we have many of them and he's already had 150 million to spend. Mourinho also had good players and while I'll never say that he did a good job as he did not, barring his third year he generally did a much better job than Ole, especially considering the trophy and 2nd place finish. The biggest difference between the two is that people expected excellence from Mourinho which he did not deliver, whereas nobody expects anything from Ole and anything he does - a couple of wins, a signing or two who aren't terrible - are considered achievements and signs of genuine progress.
I personally don’t think it’s any coincidence that our best players are now under 27. Ole understands this it seems. That’s where it’s at. Let hungry young and talented players grow and peak together and tweak away always building.
Since Fergie every manager has signed really expensive players at or past their peak as a quick fix to try and get instant success. There are too many expensive failures to bother listing. Ole isn’t going for that bracket of player at all. He’s letting those players leave now and that’s the right thing to do. I’m still not sure if he’s a good coach or manager but he does seem to be getting players more in line with some kind of longer term success. Is this all just a line from the club while we continue to underinvest and dither in the market or is this finally some proper planning on the clubs part? It feels like different things on different days to be honest.
Since Fergie every manager has signed really expensive players at or past their peak as a quick fix to try and get instant success. There are too many expensive failures to bother listing. Ole isn’t going for that bracket of player at all. He’s letting those players leave now and that’s the right thing to do. I’m still not sure if he’s a good coach or manager but he does seem to be getting players more in line with some kind of longer term success. Is this all just a line from the club while we continue to underinvest and dither in the market or is this finally some proper planning on the clubs part? It feels like different things on different days to be honest.
Maybe stopping mentioning Ferguson example in every single Ole discussion might be a good first step to make it any kind of meaningful argument. No way to discuss his position when it will always fall to "Ferguson's results were poor in his first 5 years so what" when the other side runs out of replays. An example that can be used as an excuse for any underperforming manager in any club in the world. With this example any crap manager at any club can say he's building something special that will be obvious several years from now on with just more time, just look at Ferguson.
Actually anyone pointing to time afforded to a manager 25 years back as any sort of basis for argument probably doesn't have a proper one.
opening line of the OP is this is not about Ole. I totally get peoples frustration and others support, but there are other threads for this
If you bothered to read the thread you would know I was responding to a specific point about results being the only important factor, and that perceived progress is irrelevant. Nothing in the fact that Fergie had made obvious progress at the time can be used "as an excuse for any underperforming manager in any club in the world."
Again, you're not making an argument. You're just bitching and moaning because someone says something you don't like.
You've made six or eight posts in this thread. Can you point to a single one in which you have added any value or insight?
Well, I used Fergie as my example because this is a Man Utd forum and I was trying to keep things simple.
Not simple enough for you to understand, clearly.
More like, being a simpleton. Well done on that I suppose.
If we're nitpicking these lots comes exactly under the current regime.
You can't have something special at United, and expect that to lead to anything tangible unless you have an excellent manager. So yeah the most important footballing figure at the club plays a huge role on this special thing we are apparently moving towards.
Manchester United is a giant football club with enormous resources. We always have talent and quality in our ranks. There's always the potential of something special if you have the right man pulling it all together. Your post
states that we now seem to have a core buulding and solid direction. Isn't that to do with Ole and Woodward and our apparent progress? (While being well off the pace for 4th place)
I don't disagree that we have talent. Just that we usually have talent and it won't matter one iota unless we get certain things right. False dawns and all that.
Not sure whether we are building something special but we do have some very good young player or players who are yet to reach their peak. I'm not fully sure whether they can play as a good unit under Ole but if someone else take over next season or 2 then they will have a good squad which needs few more players.
I read the original discussion and your replay on him and that's more than enough to say your replay on him was simply a replay of someone who has nothing to say so jumped on the train of the never ending Ferguson example. He was talking to someone else about progress and regress and that results are now worse, then you jumped on to tell him "oh so you would have sacked Ferguson because he finished 11th in his 3rd season disregarding the overall progress". So what, that's a laughable argument to replay with. A case of one manager in the entire history in which his results weren't that good in his first few years, not putting in consideration the state of the club back then or the age of this happening.
Your replay on him thinking results are everything is that one manager in history of football got more time 30 years ago despite terrible results in his first 5 years because progress isn't just about results. That's it, as simple as that, then you blame others for not being able to pull an argument. Laughable.
As for my posts in this thread I'm fine with them. For me most of Ole's discussions have become extremely boring because of the never ending and repetitive excuses. I have had enough of them, I only engage in them when I see silly replays, like yours. The ignore button is always present for those who don't like posts of others. I myself use it a lot.
Really? That's the level of your discourse? What's wrong with you? I mean, I imagine that you are a teenager, but you can do better than just throw insults, surely?
Yup. And that thing is a mountain of excuses
So you're bored with the Ole discussions and your response is just to spam those having an actual discussion with your negativity and insults?
How lovely of you. No wonder your reputation in the forum is what it is.
I clearly said I only engage in them when I see silly replays like yours. And what, maybe you are missing it but you weren't the one talking with the original poster from the start. He was talking with someone else and you decided to jump the train with your terrible and overused example as if you have brought something new to the table that no one else has ever said here.
As for these reputations stuff, this is a football forum where people who don't know each other beyond it post their opinions on the club, anything more than that is irrelevant.
So your whole issue is that I responded to someone on a discussion forum? Oh, ok.
Like I said, I understand you're just here to spam negativity, but give yourself a break. You've contributed ~10 posts to this thread and it's just been bile and bullcrap.
No wonder you're bored with the discussion - you're not thinking, you're ejaculating.
My level of discourse is tailor made for the participants. I mean, "not simple enough for you" was supposed to be a compliment now was it?
Anyhoo the Sir Alex comparison has been trotted out a million times. And it's a weak one. Times have changed and we have to move on with them. We cannot afford to give every average manager 5 years because of that one time we struck gold.
As for the actual topic I think we've got lots of potential on this side. But I've felt that about the club for a long time. So I agree with the conclusion of the Op but not the reasoning for it. We've got big potential becuase we have a strong youth system and tend to have many talented players not because we've done some excellent work of late.
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Been saying for a while that we have the makings of a very good side with loads of potential. Not sure Ole is the one to make it step up, but I'm happy with the direction of squad building at least. What's needed though is a top manager who will he able to get it up to the next level actually. Liverpool with Klopp did it, City did it with Pep. Our hope is our squad peaks as those 2 managers leave those 2 clubs (quite possible).
For someone bored with Ole discussions you deserve enormous credit for persisting with them day in, day out, in basically every thread that has any remote connection to Ole's role at the club. Credit is also warranted for how you selflessly redirect every single discussion towards Ole despite the fact it bores you so much.
If not you, who else can we depend on to immediately shit on anything remotely positive in our current situation? Even @Alabaster Codify7 manages to offer balance and the occasional bit of positivity when Ole gets a result, but I'll forgive him those minor indiscretions.
And let's not forget how you save us all so much time by labelling anyone on the other side of the discussion as 'delusional' instead of wasting time having an actual debate about it. The repetitive, meaningless arguments you create in EVERY feckING THREAD in the United forum are so much more rewarding for the rest of us who inhabit the place.
What gives me hope and optimism for the future is the work done by Nicky Butt and the rest of the personnel at academy level which will give us a solid foundation in the coming years. The two fullbacks Laird and Williams, Mason, Hannibal Mejbri, Garner, Levitt etc, will at the very least become first team squad players imo. Noam Emeran who we beat of competition from some very big clubs is still yet to feature.
Mejbri and Laird in particular i'm very hopeful of being first team regulars in the future.
Mejbri and Laird in particular i'm very hopeful of being first team regulars in the future.
True. I remember people questioningly the purpose of the youth system sometime back becuase we hadn't seen a 'top player' for ages. I think it's great. Nothing like developing and promoting young footballers, and turning them into stars. And we're doing some strong work in that regard. Lots of talent once again in the youth teams /among the youth products. Lovely to see.
I certainly didn't say that. Are you arguing with the fantasy person in your head?
Seriously, there's a discussion to be had about whether perceived progress is important in judging a manager, or whether current results are the only standard. @sunama was saying he thinks it should only be current results. The Fergie example may or may not be hackneyed, but it is definitely relevant to that discussion.
Nothing in what I've just said implies that I think that we should "give every average manager 5 years because of that one time we struck gold." I'm not sure what is so hard to comprehend and why you insist on putting words in other people's mouths?
Here's a constructive suggestion. Why don't you engage with the actual discussion?
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I can't stand it. I've watched this forum well before I even joined it. Just fans crying out for Jose one summer and 2 summers later pretend like that never happened or that they were never on the same page as Woodward at one point or that their predictions were never wrong.
Then another couple summers only to start crying about some other random manager and have nothing but negativity until they get what they want.
What happens when that fails? They pretend like it never happened, that they never asked for it & they go for round 3. Be frustrated, talk about the positives, talk about the negatives & just support the club.
Honestly - we are only on this situation because the premier league is competitive as sh*t. All the big teams have gone through blips and have generally have come back up but we are competing with 6-7 teams a season that are CL qualifying worthy whilst every other league has at max 3.
There's a part of me that just knows that we will get it right. We just will.
And I think Butt will be our homegrown manager one day
Seriously agree with all of this. I just looked a thread discussing why our passing is often poor. Lots of interesting discussion.
@el3mel's contribution? "Our players are stupid."
It's as if he is actively working to make the forum a shitty place.
....and costly penalty misses.
El3mel is the worst of the bunch.
Blaming injuries on Ole is the most stupid thing I've read in Caf.
I agree mate. And just to add to your post, it all started with Woodward taking over from Gill and revamping everything and bringing in the likes of Butt and Murtough (just to name two) to work with a much bigger scouting network which looks like it's gonna pay dividends in the mid/longterm. Under Gill, things were looking so bad that people started questioning the point of the academy like you quite correctly pointed out.
I'm not convinced Ole is the man who will be able to make best use of the work done at Academy level so i'm hoping we bring someone in with at the very least the potential to become a world class coach who will take the youngsters to the next level. Rose, Nagelmann, Ten Hag would be who i'd turn to and I wouldn't mind Poch either.
I think the United job is definitely very enticing for any prospective new manager especially with the vast sums that that have been made available to Nicky Butt and the sterling job he's done thus far imo.
Nope, sorry but the argument still doesn't add up. The discussion of whether perceived progress is an important metric or mere results should be considered, is a fair one, although I think the latter is on weak footing. However, despite progress being of utmost importance (and I don't think it's happening under Ole), the SAF patience /time example isn't relevant anymore for reasons already mentioned a billion times. And the verdict on our current progress isn't unanimous at all. Many feel it hasn't happened.
Ole Out brigade actually believe calling people delusional isn't an insult.
Delusional means idiosyncratic belief, basically you're an idiot in a coward way of saying it.
Why don't you try say that to your boss?
"Hey, I think you haven't done a good job"
"You're delusional, boss".
Delusional means idiosyncratic belief, basically you're an idiot in a coward way of saying it.
Why don't you try say that to your boss?
"Hey, I think you haven't done a good job"
"You're delusional, boss".