Solskjaer's legacy and his future

[ti vu]

Metric	2017/18	2019/20	2020/21
Goals Conceded	28	36	44
Shots Conceded per game (whoscored)	11.5	10.3	11.3
xGA(fbref)	41.7 (5th)	37.4(3rd)	42.2 (4th)
Pressures in final 3rd (fbref)	1265 (7th)	1361(10th)	1340 (5th)
PPDA (understat)	10.25 (7th)	9.64 (6th)	10.95 (9th)

The thing is if we compare Mou's best season with the two full seasons of Ole, it's weird for anyone to say that the team wasn't doing well defensively under Ole. Sure there were terrible performances, but over a season, barring goals conceded (which was thanks to Dave's GOAT season), there is no underlying metric where that season was better than either of the full seasons under Ole.

THis season, no one's saying things didnt get bad, and he was sacked, but to say that the defending happened as the players wished, you'd assume that he signed Milan 2003 defence.

People need to get to a final script to blame something - you can't have "Look at our players decision making. All are idiots" and also go on with "individual brilliance". Both can't be true at the same time. Similarly, you can't have for a side finishing in top 4 in consecutive seasons both "built a horrible squad" and "No tactics only vibes". It just doesn't add up.

He fecked up this season, but blaming Ole for loss vs Boro, draws vs Burnley and Newcastle is idiotic. If you want to do that, then credit Ole for the wins post his sacking as well

Even in the Mourinho first season, his team conceded under 30 goal in the league, and Mourinho's teams in his good years overall was well known for keeping low conceded goal stats , and great goal keeping job. His style is never about putting out fire, but weathering the storm.

During his time, he had chances to add 2 starting PL GKs. Spent huge sum on Maguire and AWB. Signed a decent back up LB in Telles. And in the most recent summer window recruited one established world class CB. Mourinho and LVG got shit on them for the CBs they brought in, yet they still create a defense in their vision out of them and what they inherited. Ole spent more money on defenders and even got a world class CB, then crying wolf about not able to defend properly. Milan 2003 defense would not happen if Ancelotti didn't know how to coach a defense. Why would Nesta, Stam, Cafu joined Milan if Milan was no better than their team. Lazio and Roma won Serie A not long ago with Nesta and Milan. Lazio wouldn't have the money to buy Stam if not for their successes.

Ole couldn't get 4th position at the end of 18-19 season with 66 points, yet in his first full season 66 points got him 3rd place. Mourinho first was mile off top 4 and still got 69 points, having to get CL qualification through EL triumph.

Getting second place last season was all good and sexy until the predictable reality check arrived this season. Without hindsight I mentioned Arsenal finished 2nd during Leicester triumph season, before stopping making top 4 altogether on few occasions, before the start of this season. Achieving on merit would build foundation for the future. Luck out due to circumstances is not sustainable. Having no style while selling ever changing snake oil style of place would eventually come back to bite hard on the ass.

One huge element of Ole previous 2 full seasons are football BCD. It's clear to see the points were being spreader out more to lower mid table teams during the height of COVID uncertainty.

Player can be silly tactically making numerous bad decisions during games, and still come up with plenty of moment of brilliance. Nani is a good example. Many of our current players fit into profile too in to lesser or similar extend: Rashford, Fred, Shaw, McTominay, Greenwood, Pogba... even Bruno.

Non-coaching manager that leaves no foundation, no style deserves the criticism for his mess of legacy.

 

[Irwin99]

I really dont understand 130m for Maguire and AWB.

I could understand if Maguire was a 20m punters, a young potential CB who might or might not be the real deal.

But for 80M budget, you can practically pick 99% of players and would likely going your way. Especially with that kind of transfer and wage. But ole gotta pick a player who's very trait contradicts how he wants to play. Does he even see Maguire plays, or if he only peek at his stat from an FM saves? AwB has a very glaring anr obvious flaw it mind boggles why ole sanction 50m purchase when again at that price he could have probably bought 97% out of 100 full back of his choice.

That was such a weird transfer window along with Dan James who was actually ok/decent for spells. Going into the season with just three strikers- Martial, Rashford and Mason- was crazy at the time too, especially with what happened to Rashford and his injuries.

It's starting to look like history won't look kindly on it unless things turn around with AWB and Maguire in the next few years (always possible).

 

[11101]

This is his legacy, the squad he assembled for us.

Virtually none of our players play in a similar manner, and none of them are interchangeable with each other. Contrast to Liverpool, City or any other successful team where they can drop squad players in with no noticeable change in style and just a minor drop in quality.


De Gea
Henderson

Dalot -------- Varane ----- Maguire -----Shaw
AWB ----------- Lindelof --------- Bailly ---------Telles

McTominay ------- Fred
Matic ----------------- Pogba

Sancho --------- Bruno ------- Rashford
Greenwood ----- Lingard ------- Martial

Ronaldo
Cavani


Goalkeeper
De Gea - great shotstopper, rubbish everywhere else. Needs a low defensive line.
Henderson - average shotstopper, good with his feet. Likes a high defensive line.

Right Back
Dalot - plays more as a wing back getting forward into the box, likes to get high and cut attacks out there
Wan Bissaka - cant attack, prefers to sit deep and tackle, stays wide when he does attack

Left Back
Telles - likes to cross the ball from the flanks
Shaw - likes to run forward and work the ball into the box

Central Defender
Maguire - good at heading, slow, and doesn't like the ball on the floor
Lindelof - great with the ball on the floor, suspect elsewhere. Likes to read the game and anticipate things rather than wait for a tackle.
Varane - good at everything but not a leader
Bailly - Likes to react rather than anticipate

Wide midfield
Rashford - runs at people from deep, shoots from range, not brilliant with close control
Sancho - prefers intricate passing in tight spaces
Lingard - runs a lot, average at a little bit of everything
Greenwood - runs at players, cuts inside and shoots
Martial - likes intricate passing and running at players

Centre midfield
McTominay - poor positionally, doesnt get on the ball much, good at running with the ball
Fred - ok positionally, gets on the ball a lot, prefers one two passing over running with the ball
Matic - excellent positionally but does not track and prefers to run with the ball over playing quick passes
Pogba - prefers to run with the ball and play long passes from deeper positions
Bruno - no positional discipline and will lose the ball a lot, but he will drive forward into the box and create chances

Forward
Cavani - a pure poacher and number 9 who likes to hold the ball and link play
Ronaldo - a poacher who still likes to run at people, but will not hold the ball up

 

[Jackal981]

I really dont understand 130m for Maguire and AWB.

I could understand if Maguire was a 20m punters, a young potential CB who might or might not be the real deal.

But for 80M budget, you can practically pick 99% of players and would likely going your way. Especially with that kind of transfer and wage. But ole gotta pick a player who's very trait contradicts how he wants to play. Does he even see Maguire plays, or if he only peek at his stat from an FM saves? AwB has a very glaring anr obvious flaw it mind boggles why ole sanction 50m purchase when again at that price he could have probably bought 97% out of 100 full back of his choice.

Cause somehow he believe that he need british players to make United great again. Everybody and their nan know that buying a british player from another PL team is going to cost a feckin fortune yet he still persist doing that. This stems from lazy scouting and lack of footballing nous from him so he felt safe buying this "PL Proven" players.

 

[anant]

Even in the Mourinho first season, his team conceded under 30 goal in the league, and Mourinho's teams in his good years overall was well known for keeping low conceded goal stats , and great goal keeping job. His style is never about putting out fire, but weathering the storm.

During his time, he had chances to add 2 starting PL GKs. Spent huge sum on Maguire and AWB. Signed a decent back up LB in Telles. And in the most recent summer window recruited one established world class CB. Mourinho and LVG got shit on them for the CBs they brought in, yet they still create a defense in their vision out of them and what they inherited. Ole spent more money on defenders and even got a world class CB, then crying wolf about not able to defend properly. Milan 2003 defense would not happen if Ancelotti didn't know how to coach a defense. Why would Nesta, Stam, Cafu joined Milan if Milan was no better than their team. Lazio and Roma won Serie A not long ago with Nesta and Milan. Lazio wouldn't have the money to buy Stam if not for their successes.

Ole couldn't get 4th position at the end of 18-19 season with 66 points, yet in his first full season 66 points got him 3rd place. Mourinho first was mile off top 4 and still got 69 points, having to get CL qualification through EL triumph.

Getting second place last season was all good and sexy until the predictable reality check arrived this season. Without hindsight I mentioned Arsenal finished 2nd during Leicester triumph season, before stopping making top 4 altogether on few occasions, before the start of this season. Achieving on merit would build foundation for the future. Luck out due to circumstances is not sustainable. Having no style while selling ever changing snake oil style of place would eventually come back to bite hard on the ass.

One huge element of Ole previous 2 full seasons are football BCD. It's clear to see the points were being spreader out more to lower mid table teams during the height of COVID uncertainty.

Player can be silly tactically making numerous bad decisions during games, and still come up with plenty of moment of brilliance. Nani is a good example. Many of our current players fit into profile too in to lesser or similar extend: Rashford, Fred, Shaw, McTominay, Greenwood, Pogba... even Bruno.

Non-coaching manager that leaves no foundation, no style deserves the criticism for his mess of legacy.

If you're relying on goalkeeper outperforming xG by the margin he did, then that means Mou is shit at organizing defence. A lot of us said that the level of overperformance is unsustainable - underlyign stats wise we were 6th best team in 17-18 (4th best last season).

And as far as spending is concerned, fun fact: Ole's spend was equal to Mou, net spend less than Mou. LVG also spent more per season than Ole. Now, I'm not saying Ole wasn't backed, but people need to stop saying "Wish Mou or LVG were backed this much".

Points hardly matter -> it's the position. Would you call Pool side that finished 2nd among the greatest PL sides ever - they had the 4th most number of points accumulated in a season after all? Comparing points across season fails to take into consideration eternal factors including strength of league that season.

And as far as BCD is concerned, every team played without fans. How will that push our league position up?

If he finished this high with no coaching and signing terrible players, there is only 1 conclusion that can be drawn - Vibes and feel good factor trumps coaching and tactics by a significant margin. Now, the question is, do you believe in that?

 

[ti vu]

If you're relying on goalkeeper outperforming xG by the margin he did, then that means Mou is shit at organizing defence. A lot of us said that the level of overperformance is unsustainable - underlyign stats wise we were 6th best team in 17-18 (4th best last season).

And as far as spending is concerned, fun fact: Ole's spend was equal to Mou, net spend less than Mou. LVG also spent more per season than Ole. Now, I'm not saying Ole wasn't backed, but people need to stop saying "Wish Mou or LVG were backed this much".

Points hardly matter -> it's the position. Would you call Pool side that finished 2nd among the greatest PL sides ever - they had the 4th most number of points accumulated in a season after all? Comparing points across season fails to take into consideration eternal factors including strength of league that season.

And as far as BCD is concerned, every team played without fans. How will that push our league position up?

If he finished this high with no coaching and signing terrible players, there is only 1 conclusion that can be drawn - Vibes and feel good factor trumps coaching and tactics by a significant margin. Now, the question is, do you believe in that?

That's why Mourinho wanted new center backs to upgrade the defense which never came before the meltdown. Ole followed him and conveniently blamed the same issue before spending record fee for Maguire.

Goalkeepers doing his job, while defensive unit narrowing angles. That worked for Mourinho during his peak. Even his worse version was as sustainable and proven better in goal against stats. It's no fluke for Mourinho to have several under 30 goal against in his career.

"Point tally hardly matters" when it's convenient for your argument. You compare the same team with its immediate succeeding and preceding seasons, not comparing to other teams and era apart. That Liverpool team can challenge the champions of other seasons? Sure they can. Beating those champions or not never have the answer.

Relative strength of the league may vary, doesn't mean you can't spot a freak outlier among the norm. Because some teams were too strong, doesn't mean they were awarded 4 points for their victories, and 2 points for win, that the distant 3rd place suffer and accumulated the lowest tally for a while. Saying the relative strength of 19-20 season is stronger is having a joke. Poch Tottenham was at its weakest leading to his sacking and Mourinho takeover mid season. Pep City lost its steam. Lampard Chelsea, what more to say. Arteta took over Arsenal mid season after Emery got sacked. That's stronger than previous season Liverpool second place record point and winning CL? Poch Tottenham despite on the way down getting their worthy top 4 finish making CL final. Sarri Chelsea EL champion. Emery Arsenal EL final, and also within distance to fight for top 4 place. Pep City dominant league performance?

BCD has different effect on teams. For example, Liverpool is clearly the type who has negative effect from BCD football. Klopp himself acknowledged this. While looking at form, Ole team is the one benefit from it.

Lampard and Arteta coaching Chelsea and Arsenal for one and half season. Mourinho about one and half with a broken Tottenham that saw Poch himself sacked. Where is Leicester ranked in term of financial revenue?

Ole had no first team players taking over from Mourinho? Who said all his signings are bad? What is defined as bad here? Badly coached, unsuitable tactically? Or completely unusable flop?

Lampard also finished high with Chelsea at 4th place on same point as Ole in 19-20 despite summer window ban. He got found out sooner and the team Chelsea built under Tuchel won CL, while making FA cup final. Perhaps, having quality players better than the rest of the league help under certain circumstances? Lesser coaches can have their moment too. Di Matteo has more CL trophy than Conte. Those things happen. 2 seasons during COVID height of confusion is multi generational rare event. When returning to the norm, the normalization progress can be drastically different to the freakish period.

Where did Ole finished? He finished with no trophies, and into the new season his team progression is heading down hill, and fast. Top 4 finish where you make no progression to challenge the title is what does't matter, and can very soon be meaningless. Wenger was still finishing top 4 consistently until he couldn't. Are we focusing his Arsenal career legacy on that period, or the time when he actually succeeded in challenging and winning? Then realizing that in the end, he himself undid his own early successes for failing progressing upward?

 

[OrcaFat]

The squad he left is not bad at all, they proved they were good enough to finish second last year. The midfield is pretty poor but Ole asked for a CM in the summer when we got Ronnie instead which very obviously was not part of Ole’s plan.

I know there are hardly any players in form at the moment but we’ve seen most of them play well over a decent period. If we sort the CM out the rest of the squad will shine again. We will need a striker as well of course but that’s normal.

 

[Pretzels81]

#BringOleBack

 

[Pintu]

People have become too entrenched in believing a change in manager will solve everything. It's always been the case that the quality and mentality of the players available is more important.

Many of those that are blaming Ole now also thought this squad was good enough for a title challenge pre season (it wasn't).

How about recruiting good players. Look at this list of CB's transferred in 2019 summer, and tell me it is justified to see Maguire so far up that list. He is not really better than anyone there. And he cost more than double most of them. (Hummels + Koundé for 55 put together)

 

[anant]

That's why Mourinho wanted new center backs to upgrade the defense which never came before the meltdown. Ole followed him and conveniently blamed the same issue before spending record fee for Maguire.

Goalkeepers doing his job, while defensive unit narrowing angles. That worked for Mourinho during his peak. Even his worse version was as sustainable and proven better in goal against stats. It's no fluke for Mourinho to have several under 30 goal against in his career.

"Point tally hardly matters" when it's convenient for your argument. You compare the same team with its immediate succeeding and preceding seasons, not comparing to other teams and era apart. That Liverpool team can challenge the champions of other seasons? Sure they can. Beating those champions or not never have the answer.

Relative strength of the league may vary, doesn't mean you can't spot a freak outlier among the norm. Because some teams were too strong, doesn't mean they were awarded 4 points for their victories, and 2 points for win, that the distant 3rd place suffer and accumulated the lowest tally for a while. Saying the relative strength of 19-20 season is stronger is having a joke. Poch Tottenham was at its weakest leading to his sacking and Mourinho takeover mid season. Pep City lost its steam. Lampard Chelsea, what more to say. Arteta took over Arsenal mid season after Emery got sacked. That's stronger than previous season Liverpool second place record point and winning CL? Poch Tottenham despite on the way down getting their worthy top 4 finish making CL final. Sarri Chelsea EL champion. Emery Arsenal EL final, and also within distance to fight for top 4 place. Pep City dominant league performance?

BCD has different effect on teams. For example, Liverpool is clearly the type who has negative effect from BCD football. Klopp himself acknowledged this. While looking at form, Ole team is the one benefit from it.

Lampard and Arteta coaching Chelsea and Arsenal for one and half season. Mourinho about one and half with a broken Tottenham that saw Poch himself sacked. Where is Leicester ranked in term of financial revenue?

Ole had no first team players taking over from Mourinho? Who said all his signings are bad? What is defined as bad here? Badly coached, unsuitable tactically? Or completely unusable flop?

Lampard also finished high with Chelsea at 4th place on same point as Ole in 19-20 despite summer window ban. He got found out sooner and the team Chelsea built under Tuchel won CL, while making FA cup final. Perhaps, having quality players better than the rest of the league help under certain circumstances? Lesser coaches can have their moment too. Di Matteo has more CL trophy than Conte. Those things happen. 2 seasons during COVID height of confusion is multi generational rare event. When returning to the norm, the normalization progress can be drastically different to the freakish period.

Where did Ole finished? He finished with no trophies, and into the new season his team progression is heading down hill, and fast. Top 4 finish where you make no progression to challenge the title is what does't matter, and can very soon be meaningless. Wenger was still finishing top 4 consistently until he couldn't. Are we focusing his Arsenal career legacy on that period, or the time when he actually succeeded in challenging and winning? Then realizing that in the end, he himself undid his own early successes for failing progressing upward?

Ok.

 

[ti vu]

Ok.

Cheers

 

[Leftback99]

How about recruiting good players. Look at this list of CB's transferred in 2019 summer, and tell me it is justified to see Maguire so far up that list. He is not really better than anyone there. And he cost more than double most of them. (Hummels + Koundé for 55 put together)

Yes recruitment is vital, more so than any manager.

Did Solskjaer set the prices, or do all the scouting? Do you think Klopp singlehandedly picked out the Liverpool squad or did their top class scouting and analytics department have something to do with it?

The obsession with Maguire on here is something else.

 

[Caesar2290]

The implication that we would be winning games. I understand that you dont want the team to win.

Quiet the opposite actually. I don't want our team to be mediocre full of overpaid prima donnas that aren't arsed to put in a shift and crumble every time there is any pressure to win. And that meant getting rid of the man who facilitated every one these things on the back of "Mourinho's toxicity". And if you think a simple DM would have papered over all of this, then you are mistaken.

Ralf simply exposed every single one of these aspects. Gone are the days of Mates FC and let the boys express themselves out there. And while I don't think he is the right man for the job, he is a step in the right direction provided we appoint a manager with similar views in the summer.

Also, we're not West Ham or Brentford. United shouldn't be winning games, we should be winning trophies.

 

[Caesar2290]

Yes recruitment is vital, more so than any manager.

Did Solskjaer set the prices, or do all the scouting? Do you think Klopp singlehandedly picked out the Liverpool squad or did their top class scouting and analytics department have something to do with it?

The obsession with Maguire on here is something else.

Actually yes he did. There were plenty of reports that Ole brought his own scout and he had his separate targets from the ones identified by our scouting department. Maguire and AWB were rumored to be 2 of them.

 

[LawmanMan]

Set the club back years. Terrible squad builder given years and huge funds to work his “magic.”

 

[Leftback99]

Actually yes he did. There were plenty of reports that Ole brought his own scout and he had his separate targets from the ones identified by our scouting department. Maguire and AWB were rumored to be 2 of them.

Says more about how badly we're run as a club if true. Doesn't happen at Liverpool like I said.

 

[Caesar2290]

Says more about how badly we're run as a club if true. Doesn't happen at Liverpool like I said.

I think it's more to do with Glazer's hands off aproach and delegating everything to Woodward the egomaniac who had 0 football knowledge or knew didly squat about how to run a football club.

It's good to see that his successor has realized that he has the same weakness and delegated the football matters to the football people instead of "trying to learn the job and fix things himself."

I'm a bit optimisitic as things stand.

 

[Pintu]

Yes recruitment is vital, more so than any manager.

Did Solskjaer set the prices, or do all the scouting? Do you think Klopp singlehandedly picked out the Liverpool squad or did their top class scouting and analytics department have something to do with it?

The obsession with Maguire on here is something else.

Maguire is important because he’s been conditioning everything. He was made captain. And yes OGS decided to eliminate all other options, which basically gave Leicester all the bargaining power.

AWB is another massive waste of money, but he wasn’t made captain and he is easier to drop for RR.

 

[Leftback99]

I think it's more to do with Glazer's hands off aproach and delegating everything to Woodward the egomaniac who had 0 football knowledge or knew didly squat about how to run a football club.

It's good to see that his successor has realized that he has the same weakness and delegated the football matters to the football people instead of "trying to learn the job and fix things himself."

I'm a bit optimisitic as things stand.

It's ridiculous how long it's taking us to catch up. For all the money we waste on transfers how hard is it to look at what the best run clubs are doing behind the scenes and copy it. Poach the best staff.

 

[Leftback99]

Maguire is important because he’s been conditioning everything. He was made captain. And yes OGS decided to eliminate all other options, which basically gave Leicester all the bargaining power.

AWB is another massive waste of money, but he wasn’t made captain and he is easier to drop for RR.

I'd have bought him myself that summer and so would most here. He's been a good signing until this season. AWB was a bigger mistake.

 

[Amir]

The squad he left is not bad at all, they proved they were good enough to finish second last year. The midfield is pretty poor but Ole asked for a CM in the summer when we got Ronnie instead which very obviously was not part of Ole’s plan.

They were good enough for the relatively low standard that was needed for second last season, due to Liverpool and Chelsea struggling. This season you need more than that.

 

[VP89]

The squad he left is not bad at all, they proved they were good enough to finish second last year. The midfield is pretty poor but Ole asked for a CM in the summer when we got Ronnie instead which very obviously was not part of Ole’s plan.

I know there are hardly any players in form at the moment but we’ve seen most of them play well over a decent period. If we sort the CM out the rest of the squad will shine again. We will need a striker as well of course but that’s normal.

He was the luckiest manager around to have Spurs Chelsea pressing reset and Liverpool with a defensive injury crisis.

 

[Caesar2290]

It's ridiculous how long it's taking us to catch up. For all the money we waste on transfers how hard is it to look at what the best run clubs are doing behind the scenes and copy it. Poach the best staff.

Problem was Woodward. He was a SAF like figure for the Glazers, except in the finances department. He was unsackable.

He was the man that made their take over possible at the very last minute. He was the man that turned United into this financial behemoth that keeps bringing insane revenue, despite not winning a major trophy for 8+ years now. The man had unlimited good will with the Glazers, especially Papa Glazer. At least up until recently.

Apparently our lack of results, poor recruitment, bad managers and Covid have started to impact the finances hard. Our lack of success on the field is slowly starting to catch up. Papa Glazer isn't around to protect him, and the younger ones specifically Joel isn't that impressed.

That's why they moved him upstairs. That's why he has a consultancy role. Not on football matters, but on finances. The man is a genius when it comes to finances. Too bad that doesn't translate to football matters.

Now Arnold realized all of this and decided to make Mourtough the de facto man in charge of the footballing side. That's also the reason Mourtough brought Ralf in, so he can have some help and perspective. Think of Ralf as our assitant DoF.(like asssitant to the manager)

Previously our footballing side of things was shared between the manager, the scouting department and our DOF. They all had about the same power when it comes to recruitment, but Woody had the veto power and would over rule a lot of the decisions done by football men for financial reasons(contract extensions, not selling or buying certain players, buying players we shouldn't have, etc).

Under our new structure, the DOF is in charge of the footballing matters while the scouting and manager work under him. While the DOF takes input from both the manager and the scouting department, he is the one making the final decision. If the results aren't going to come, we'll simply get a new DoF. We're finally moving away from favorites and slowly transitioning back to a meritocraticly run club.

Maybe @Adnan can add a bit more to this, but that is basically the gist of it.

 

[Polar]

Actually yes he did. There were plenty of reports that Ole brought his own scout and he had his separate targets from the ones identified by our scouting department. Maguire and AWB were rumored to be 2 of them.

You are right if you say Maguire and AWB were the scouting departement’s targets and not Ole’s.

 

[Roboc7]

I'd have bought him myself that summer and so would most here. He's been a good signing until this season. AWB was a bigger mistake.

No most wouldn’t, anyone who’d seen him play regularly for Leicester knew he wasn’t even their best CB. Said at the time as soon as price got to £40m should have walked away, paying 80 for him was just pure incompetence.

He’s not been a good signing, he’s not significantly better than like of Smalling or Evans other than his fitness record is much better. Both him and AWB were flawed and massively over priced signings, for me and many others alarm bells were ringing.

 

[Caesar2290]

You are right if you say Maguire and AWB were the scouting departement’s targets and not Ole’s.

I wouldn't be so sure

OLE: MAGUIRE WAS MY NUMBER ONE TARGET

 

[Irwin99]

I'd have bought him myself that summer and so would most here. He's been a good signing until this season. AWB was a bigger mistake.

Kind of agree with that although i'd definitely refer to it as a 'good' signing as you say and not a great one and obviously the fee was just ridiculous. He's never been one of the best in the league for a consistent period (that's not to say he's crap/awful etc) though he was in the team of the tournament at the Euros.

The captain thing was what I find extremely odd. He was basically given it from the get go when Young wasn't playing and it smacked more of wishful thinking from the management that this guy was going to be our leader but without actually earning that right. The club just put more expectation on him and probably made it more difficult for him overall considering the fee.

 

[Leftback99]

Kind of agree with that although i'd definitely refer to it as a 'good' signing as you say and not a great one and obviously the fee was just ridiculous. He's never been one of the best in the league for a consistent period (that's not to say he's crap/awful etc) though he was in the team of the tournament at the Euros.

The captain thing was what I find extremely odd. He was basically given it from the get go when Young wasn't playing and it smacked more of wishful thinking from the management that this guy was going to be our leader but without actually earning that right. The club just put more expectation on him and probably made it more difficult for him overall considering the fee.

With the captain thing we didn't (and arguably still don't) have any long term alternatives. It was basically him or De Gea.

 

[Adnan]

Problem was Woodward. He was a SAF like figure for the Glazers, except in the finances department. He was unsackable.

He was the man that made their take over possible at the very last minute. He was the man that turned United into this financial behemoth that keeps bringing insane revenue, despite not winning a major trophy for 8+ years now. The man had unlimited good will with the Glazers, especially Papa Glazer. At least up until recently.

Apparently our lack of results, poor recruitment, bad managers and Covid have started to impact the finances hard. Our lack of success on the field is slowly starting to catch up. Papa Glazer isn't around to protect him, and the younger ones specifically Joel isn't that impressed.

That's why they moved him upstairs. That's why he has a consultancy role. Not on football matters, but on finances. The man is a genius when it comes to finances. Too bad that doesn't translate to football matters.

Now Arnold realized all of this and decided to make Mourtough the de facto man in charge of the footballing side. That's also the reason Mourtough brought Ralf in, so he can have some help and perspective. Think of Ralf as our assitant DoF.(like asssitant to the manager)

Previously our footballing side of things was shared between the manager, the scouting department and our DOF. They all had about the same power when it comes to recruitment, but Woody had the veto power and would over rule a lot of the decisions done by football men for financial reasons(contract extensions, not selling or buying certain players, buying players we shouldn't have, etc).

Under our new structure, the DOF is in charge of the footballing matters while the scouting and manager work under him. While the DOF takes input from both the manager and the scouting department, he is the one making the final decision. If the results aren't going to come, we'll simply get a new DoF. We're finally moving away from favorites and slowly transitioning back to a meritocraticly run club.

Maybe @Adnan can add a bit more to this, but that is basically the gist of it.

Agreed.

 

[Rampant Red Rodriguez]

130 million for Maguire and Bissaka

Who were the alternative players at that point in time and what were the alternative options to us?.

For the cb options at the club we had Mike Smalling who was getting hounded every week? Phil Injured Jones? Rojo and Bailiy injured all the time?.. Blind was underplayed and hounded out of the club.. No other suitable CB options were available to us mate.. Maguire came in and was solid enough to shore up our cb defence but if he doesn't get shielded then we'd have had DDG to be the last man in yard m street

 

[Jackal981]

Who were the alternative players at that point in time and what were the alternative options to us?.

For the cb options at the club we had Mike Smalling who was getting hounded every week? Phil Injured Jones? Rojo and Bailiy injured all the time?.. Blind was underplayed and hounded out of the club.. No other suitable CB options were available to us mate.. Maguire came in and was solid enough to shore up our cb defence but if he doesn't get shielded then we'd have had DDG to be the last man in yard m street

Hakimi ? Cancelo ? De Ligt ? Militao ? Ruben Dias ? All of them are in the same window or one window after Maguire transfer. Skriniar or Koulibaly would be obtainable with less than 80m too and both are miles better than our useless captain. Cancelo instead of Wan Bissaka ?

 

[Amir]

Who were the alternative players at that point in time and what were the alternative options to us?.

For the cb options at the club we had Mike Smalling who was getting hounded every week? Phil Injured Jones? Rojo and Bailiy injured all the time?.. Blind was underplayed and hounded out of the club.. No other suitable CB options were available to us mate.. Maguire came in and was solid enough to shore up our cb defence but if he doesn't get shielded then we'd have had DDG to be the last man in yard m street

Lack of options is not an excuse to spend so much money on a player if he's not good enough. You just find a way to get by with what you have - or look for a far cheaper short-term solution - while working on finding a long term one.

Otherwise you do exactly what we did, and now we see the results: We have a centerhalf who is lacking, but we're stuck with him due to the cost.

 

[Bebestation]

For me - he improved the squad.

Not perfectly, but still improved.

 

[Amir]

For me - he improved the squad.

Not perfectly, but still improved.

For the money, spent, it would have been criminal had it not been improved somewhat. But it doesn't matter as some of the deals he made are hampering us and will continue to do so for the next couple of years at least.

 

[Marwood]

For the money, spent, it would have been criminal had it not been improved somewhat. But it doesn't matter as some of the deals he made are hampering us and will continue to do so for the next couple of years at least.

Maguire and AWB were positive additions. They did really help us. They should still be really helping us.

But no manager can guarantee a players form forever. If a player has the ability to really help a team but doesn't perform that's on the player.

The only incoming signing Ole really messed up on was DVB. That and maybe ending up with Ronaldo and Cavani.

 

[Amir]

Maguire and AWB were positive additions. They did really help us. They should still be really helping us.

But no manager can guarantee a players form forever. If a player has the ability to really help a team but doesn't perform that's on the player.

The only incoming signing Ole really messed up on was DVB. That and maybe ending up with Ronaldo and Cavani.

Maguire and AWB were short term gains as they did improve our defence. But they were never players who we can get to the highest level with - which should be our target. They have limited that won't be solved. So spending that sort of money for short term gains was scandalous.

Unfortunately, I always thought Solskjaer signed them because he was desperate to improve the defence enough to keep his job. Those deals harmed United more than served us because now we are stuck with them.

 

[Bebestation]

Maguire and AWB were positive additions. They did really help us. They should still be really helping us.

But no manager can guarantee a players form forever. If a player has the ability to really help a team but doesn't perform that's on the player.

The only incoming signing Ole really messed up on was DVB. That and maybe ending up with Ronaldo and Cavani.

I mean people are crying about Maguire but what about Varane? That's someone Ole signed.

Bruno is arguably our best player.

Maguire is better than Bailly, Smalling and Jones imo. Lindelof arguably improved under Ole aswell. Maybe even Fred is in that list too.

He bought Sancho- arguably our first RW that wanted to be here since Valencia replacing Ronaldo and Di Maria left us.

Cavani was a great short term buy. Telles is better than young as a back up LB.

I dislike Romero for Henderson decision. I liked wan bissaka at the start but has arguably been found out a bit.

I just find that people complain much more on things like the money spent on a player - like it's their money that we will never get back.

He sold Fellaini, Lukaku, Darmian, young, Sanchez, Smalling, Fosu mensah, Rojo, Romero, Herrera alongside nearly 30 other youngsters.

 

[Matriac]

People's biggest issues with Maguire and AWB is their price, which is understandable. That otherwise they are at least decent squad players. Maguire at times show a real player, but has struggled at times this season. Personally I also like AWB a lot, though he needs to improve in certain areas. But people also seem to forget that the price was inflated due to their homegrown status. In the current PL registered (senior) squad of 23, 11 are homegrown, but 3 of those are our 2nd, 3rd and 4th keepers.

If you want more than 17 players in your squad they have to have homegrown status to be able to fill out the 25 cap.
In the squad now we have Lingard, Pogba, Jones as HG, all are either expected or wanted gone before next season. Henderson probably as well unless something drastically changes. The backup keepers will likely be changed for another old HG keeper when their time is up.

Sancho will be senior player next season, and is also HG (another reason for his price), Greenwood was supposed to be another.

As it stands we likely have these as HG in our squad come next season:

Rashford
Shaw
McTominay
Sancho
Heaton
Wan-Bissaka
Maguire

Jones' HG status is an argument to keep him over Bailly if we are short on other HG players. Also another reason to keep Pogba at the club. Or we have to go out and buy another player with HG status if we want the full 25 squad (although Rangnick doesn't seem to care for this).
AWB and Maguire were bought to be a core part of the squad for the long-term in part for their HG status.

 

[Polar]

I wouldn't be so sure

OLE: MAGUIRE WAS MY NUMBER ONE TARGET

Maguire was a target long before Ole arrived. Managers have the overall responsibility, but I suppose it’s the “United system” who target players (presents alternatives, recommendations and make decisions). I think it’s wrong to personalise this issue, saying one transfer was decided by the manager and another transfer was decided by someone else.

Anyway.. I supported both the Maguire and AWB transfers and I think they’ve been decent signings. Off course neither of them have defended their price, but everyone knew they were overpriced due to the fact other alternatives were few at that time.

 

[Shark]

Maguire was a target long before Ole arrived. Managers have the overall responsibility, but I suppose it’s the “United system” who target players (presents alternatives, recommendations and make decisions). I think it’s wrong to personalise this issue, saying one transfer was decided by the manager and another transfer was decided by someone else.

Anyway.. I supported both the Maguire and AWB transfers and I think they’ve been decent signings. Off course neither of them have defended their price, but everyone knew they were overpriced due to the fact other alternatives were few at that time.

Why did he almost instantly make him captain then.