RVP is the only one who comes close to a 10. Good looking man (no homo). Still, realistically, I'd say he's probably about 8 - 8.5. Rooney is a 3.
So the 3-5-2
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I'd say Rooney certainly not a true #10 and is a #9 but that's another old debate.
I liked the football we played, it was very exciting at times but its too defensive in my opinion. That said if we win the league or a trophy using it I don't care in the slightest.
The fact that we can change to a 433 if the 352 isn't working will be a huge bonus. A effect plan B is always essential!
The fact that we can change to a 433 if the 352 isn't working will be a huge bonus. A effect plan B is always essential!
I just worry for Adnan with this setup, he can't play wing back and the #10 role is completely over crowded.
This is from Jonathan Wilson going through the tactics of the big non English teams in the 2013/14 champions league. Near the end he goes through Juventus, and the issues of playing a back three with wing backs.
Mata, Kagawa, Fellaini, Januzaj = 4 no. 10's
I don't think he's a particularly good #10 either, at least he hasn't looked like it when he played there last season.
During the World Cup Van Gaal has said many times to the (Dutch) media that he works with a philosophy and whether one pens it down as 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 or whatever is irrelevant. His players are instructed to constantly adapt to the situation and therefore it is a bit silly to talk about 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 in hard cold facts as it doesn't matter.
Plus on top of all of that, he will simply revert to 4-3-3 if the system doesn't work during a game.
Taking an inferior Dutch squad to 3rd place at the World Cup is not a bad achievement. Imagine what he can do with actually good players (which I think this United team definitely has got) to his disposition.
Plus on top of all of that, he will simply revert to 4-3-3 if the system doesn't work during a game.
Taking an inferior Dutch squad to 3rd place at the World Cup is not a bad achievement. Imagine what he can do with actually good players (which I think this United team definitely has got) to his disposition.
Our current lack of depth in both midfield and our back 3 would definitely come back to haunt us if we don't invest in a couple more additions. We're counting too much on our first choice players being fit for every match throughout the season.
you're obviously not though if that's what you think i meant.
in that game, the early goal just seemed to kill the match. you had chances to score throughout but seemed to be less urgency to do so
@Dante
The problem for any system with 3 at the back had been the move towards playing 1 upfront, 3 players marking 1 man which is over kill. This is not so great a problem now as most teams are no longer playing Mourinho's 4-3-3, 4-4-2 in its various guises is the go to formation for most coaches (I include 4-2-3-1 in that).
I think our defenders are well suited to playing as a back 3, our center backs need to be comfortable being dragged wide, Jones and Smalling have played right back, Evans left back and Vermallen would be the same if we end up getting him. One of them being comfortable on the ball is a bonus, not a necessity for a back 3.
What I do like is that it gets our best 3 attackers in their strongest positions from the off, similar to what he managed for Holland. I'm not to bothered by the lack of Robben like pace, thats something Holland needed as they started so many games as underdog, we will have most of the possesion in our games, we won't be playing many games on the counter and Rooney is quick enough in most cases.
We are very light on the wings, so playing a wingless formation is playing to the strengths of this squad. To play the formation over the season we would need a second left wing back (who is left footed).
I'm not sure I like it, I like wingers, but Van Galls a pragmatist. I don't think he has a set philosphy, he'll asess the squad, decides what works best for the group he has and go from there.
The problem for any system with 3 at the back had been the move towards playing 1 upfront, 3 players marking 1 man which is over kill. This is not so great a problem now as most teams are no longer playing Mourinho's 4-3-3, 4-4-2 in its various guises is the go to formation for most coaches (I include 4-2-3-1 in that).
I think our defenders are well suited to playing as a back 3, our center backs need to be comfortable being dragged wide, Jones and Smalling have played right back, Evans left back and Vermallen would be the same if we end up getting him. One of them being comfortable on the ball is a bonus, not a necessity for a back 3.
What I do like is that it gets our best 3 attackers in their strongest positions from the off, similar to what he managed for Holland. I'm not to bothered by the lack of Robben like pace, thats something Holland needed as they started so many games as underdog, we will have most of the possesion in our games, we won't be playing many games on the counter and Rooney is quick enough in most cases.
We are very light on the wings, so playing a wingless formation is playing to the strengths of this squad. To play the formation over the season we would need a second left wing back (who is left footed).
I'm not sure I like it, I like wingers, but Van Galls a pragmatist. I don't think he has a set philosphy, he'll asess the squad, decides what works best for the group he has and go from there.
Van Gaal has said before that the system depends on the players, but he wants to play attacking football.
Ah but there are subtle differences between a 3-2-2-1-2 and a conventional 3-5-2 (or as I like to think of it a 3-2+3-2) mainly based around the areas of the pitch covered by the 5 in the centre of the 3-2-2-1-2 with the 2-2-1 component tending to stay slightly deeper than the 2-1-2 positions, whereas in a 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3 you're more likely to see the 3-3-2 pivots coming deep to....
zzzzzzz....
sorry, what?
Januzaj not getting as many chances is a bit dissapointing but ...
I wouldn't switch to a 4-3-3 just for him.
Just not enough alternative wingers.
Anyway he's young and can adapt, at least for a season or two.
Playing as a striker or a 10 for a season could add more to his game in the long run.
Kind of feel the same re shaw and his ability going forward.
Is carrick playing as a part of a back 3 a bad plan? Or do you think it could suit him?
Will need to pick up some cover at cb regardless i guess.
I wouldn't switch to a 4-3-3 just for him.
Just not enough alternative wingers.
Anyway he's young and can adapt, at least for a season or two.
Playing as a striker or a 10 for a season could add more to his game in the long run.
Kind of feel the same re shaw and his ability going forward.
Is carrick playing as a part of a back 3 a bad plan? Or do you think it could suit him?
Will need to pick up some cover at cb regardless i guess.
So, does anyone see a role for Fellaini in this system? I still don't. Although van Gaal was able to fit in Nani and Young...
Who knows, this is Louis van Gaal, he might see something we don't.
If Fellaini could play as a holding midfielder, the number 6, that is to say he could miraculously develop positional discipline and not be so clumsy and then also learn to use his size to his advantage, he might be ok.
If we had 4 centre backs and 2 got injured we could always switch back to a 4 man back line, or use one of our reserve centre backs. I think 2 more singings might end up overkill, especially if it's possible we realise 352 isn't working.
My amateur team that I play with plays a similar formation, and the issues that the video addresses about a 3-back formation are misguided. They're very easily remedied. My team plays like this:
---------------GK
---------CB----CB----CB
RWB----------DM---------LWB
---------CM--------CM
------------ST----ST
The issue that the video is concerned with is the lack of a player who can cover the opposing teams fullbacks pressing forward. This is simply remedied by the forwards having a better work rate. Typically, one forward will come across to challenge the fullback when in possession and the other will stay centrally, either dropping to bother the opposing teams extra midfielder (if they have one) or remaining close with the central defenders. When the balls is on the other side, the opposite striker moves over to cover. Its simple and requires little work rate tbh, especially if you play teams with poor fullbacks or you have good possession of the ball.
---------------GK
---------CB----CB----CB
RWB----------DM---------LWB
---------CM--------CM
------------ST----ST
The issue that the video is concerned with is the lack of a player who can cover the opposing teams fullbacks pressing forward. This is simply remedied by the forwards having a better work rate. Typically, one forward will come across to challenge the fullback when in possession and the other will stay centrally, either dropping to bother the opposing teams extra midfielder (if they have one) or remaining close with the central defenders. When the balls is on the other side, the opposite striker moves over to cover. Its simple and requires little work rate tbh, especially if you play teams with poor fullbacks or you have good possession of the ball.
Yeah, Holland didn't have much defensive difficulty in the world cup.
Van Gaal's saying what we have all felt for the past years. The squad is poorly constructed, so in order to actually utilise our best players we pretty much have to go 3 at the back, which unfortunatly will undermine shaws potential as he's primarily a defence fullback. we've based our side around having 4 top strikers then for some reason purchasing an abundance of no.10's. i can easily see kagawa going in the not too distant future if he intends to keep the status quo regarding our striekforce.
Thanks for the video. Every system has its strength and weaknesses but for me whats more important is our ability to maximize the strengthens of our own players while still being flexible. LvG said he wants to use 352/3412 as the primary formation but would revert back to 433 when needed. It will be interesting to see how the system works in the PL and against the top teams specifically. It will take time for the boys to get used to it and apply the system perfectly which is the reason I am not expecting them to deliver the title in the first year under LvG.
I am not sure if it's a great idea, there are some positives for sure, but also some problems. To play 3 in defence when you have only 3 CBs who are all injury-prone is just not a good idea, we need at least 2 CBs now and someone like Blind to have some cover. And Vermaelen for example is injury-prone too, if we sign only him I am just waiting for the moment, where all our defenders are injured and we can't even play our emergency solution Carrick. Januzaj is another problem, after last year I expected to see another step up from him and thought he could be a starter next season, but in that setup the only position for him is the number 10 and we have so many options in that area. Would probably better to sell the likes of Kagawa, Nani, Young then, Januzaj should be at least the Mata backup. While it could be a good lineup against big teams, I am not sure if we should play like that against midtable teams. The dutch team impressed me, but they struggled to make the game with the counter-setup.
The positives are obvious, we can play Rooney and van Persie together, Mata can play in his best position too and when you look at the last 2 seasons, one defender more makes sense. Also Valencia is nowadays as wingback more useful than as winger imo. I just hope we don't stick with it the whole season just for the sake of it, but with van Gaal I am positive, he will play 4-3-3 when needed. We need to be flexible, just the one setup will not work everytime.
The positives are obvious, we can play Rooney and van Persie together, Mata can play in his best position too and when you look at the last 2 seasons, one defender more makes sense. Also Valencia is nowadays as wingback more useful than as winger imo. I just hope we don't stick with it the whole season just for the sake of it, but with van Gaal I am positive, he will play 4-3-3 when needed. We need to be flexible, just the one setup will not work everytime.
He's going on and on about the disaster of the fullbacks being free to push forward. I might ask what would happen if the number 10 or the number 6 receives the ball in that situation? It will result in a 3 or 4 vs the 2 center backs in a matter of seconds. That space he's so proudly highlighting will be used for our own sake to create a clear goalscoring chance, the same way Robben created his chances from a counter attacking situation.
If only you could have 12 players in one team, solves allot of problems like 452 LOL
Idd,
LCB can push out to the winger and LWB can push forward to their full back regardless.
Leaves acres of space out on wings too, so it'd be suicidal for them really.
Could drop the keeper
I think we'll never really learn who these four "10s" are until a reporter actually asks the man himself.
It's true that the starting formation isn't as important as the roles each individual player has to adapt into in van Gaal's tactics. He has 11 "profiles" that make up his playing tactics and he tries to find which player fits better in each profile position.
My guess is that when he's talking about the number 10 position he refers to the player who performs better at the top of a midfield diamond (with the DM at the bottom), or at the top of a midfield triangle (with two CMs at the bottom), or at the top of a side triangle (with a CM at the bottom and a winger left or right). And i'm not talking about stable, starting formations but fluid and ever moving triangles and diamonds created by the off the ball movement of all the players on the pitch.
It's true that the starting formation isn't as important as the roles each individual player has to adapt into in van Gaal's tactics. He has 11 "profiles" that make up his playing tactics and he tries to find which player fits better in each profile position.
My guess is that when he's talking about the number 10 position he refers to the player who performs better at the top of a midfield diamond (with the DM at the bottom), or at the top of a midfield triangle (with two CMs at the bottom), or at the top of a side triangle (with a CM at the bottom and a winger left or right). And i'm not talking about stable, starting formations but fluid and ever moving triangles and diamonds created by the off the ball movement of all the players on the pitch.
He's going on and on about the disaster of the fullbacks being free to push forward. I might ask what would happen if the number 10 or the number 6 receives the ball in that situation? It will result in a 3 or 4 vs the 2 center backs in a matter of seconds. That space he's so proudly highlighting will be used for our own sake to create a clear goalscoring chance, the same way Robben created his chances from a counter attacking situation.
Get yer outside CB's to push onto the 7 and 11 and push the full-backs onto the opposition full-back's, even then let's say you leave the full-back's in my mind there's not many about who are going to hurt you at all if you're marking well in the area. Key is communication and anticipation you can piss around with X's and O's all you want. Even then sod all that and say what if the opposition lose the ball like that? Then with Mata, RVP and Rooney and some pace from somewhere we can fecking destroy them on the counter.
I posted this in another thread:
Who are the 4 number 10s?
Mata - sure
Kagawa - sure
Januzaj - not in my opinion, mostly seen as a winger
Fellaini - probably
Rooney - not in my opinion, seen as a number 9
Powell - probably
Herrera - not in my opinion, seen as a midfielder
Have I missed anyone? All these players can play as a number 10, but Januzaj, Rooney and Herrera have other primary position. To me the 4 are Mata, Kagawa, Fellaini and Powell. One of them will likely go and I think it's between Fellaini and Powell. Kagawa is more similar to Mata and makes a good backup. Fellaini brings something different - we have seen at the WC that if LVG is loosing he likes to change the tactics and throw a tall target man in the last 15 minutes. Fellaini is probably best suited for that in our team. Which leaves Powell - I think it's not a coincidence that LVG has asked him to join the team on the tour - he is going to be evaluated and shipped if not good enough. I would rank the chance of one of the number 10s leaving like that:
Mata: 0%
Kagawa: 10% to get sold
Fellaini: 40% to get sold
Powell: 50% to get loaned or sold
Idd,
LCB can push out to the winger and LWB can push forward to their full back regardless.
Leaves acres of space out on wings too, so it'd be suicidal for them really.
Could drop the keeper
And reduce the size of the goals
He's going on and on about the disaster of the fullbacks being free to push forward. I might ask what would happen if the number 10 or the number 6 receives the ball in that situation? It will result in a 3 or 4 vs the 2 center backs in a matter of seconds. That space he's so proudly highlighting will be used for our own sake to create a clear goalscoring chance, the same way Robben created his chances from a counter attacking situation.
It's a wrong reflection of how this formation defends though. The midfield three and the spare CB can both help cover the sides and don't stay as narrow as in the picture above. The only danger is that it leaves more space on the opposite side than if you would defend with two banks of four.
The weakness of this formation is rather in attack where the wide players have to start from all the way back at the defensive line which will make it only possible to play fast over the wing if your strikers drift out wide or one of your midfielders manages to get into this space before the opposition FBs do.
Defensively the 5-3-2 or 3-4-3 like van Gaal calls it is pretty solid it's in attack where we will get into trouble for having limited possibilities when it comes to stretching the playing field vertically.
In general every formation has it's weaknesses and strengths and it's important how you manage to compensate for it.
Rooney....STATIC?!!!! He is one of the most mobile strikers in the world. He is everywhere on a football pitch!
Here is Woy's view on 3-5-2:
http://www.uefa.com/trainingground/coaches/video/videoid=537432.html
http://www.uefa.com/trainingground/coaches/video/videoid=537432.html
I love this formation, delighted he's thinking of going with it as it certainly fits this squad best IMO.
Both Vermaelen and Vidal would be perfect in this system as well - the former is relatively a far better ball playing defender than he is a regular centre back, and the latter's partnership with Herrera isn't vulnerable to the same defensive concerns in a 3-5-2 than it would be in a regular four man defence.
Both Vermaelen and Vidal would be perfect in this system as well - the former is relatively a far better ball playing defender than he is a regular centre back, and the latter's partnership with Herrera isn't vulnerable to the same defensive concerns in a 3-5-2 than it would be in a regular four man defence.
For the 3-5-2 to work u need very offensive wing backs, Juve dont have the offensive wing backs and still play the system that is why it backfired on us this season in the CL.
Evra would be a good example of a good wing back to have for this system, very good going forward and able to be a threat on the wing when he gets the ball in the opposition half.
Evra would be a good example of a good wing back to have for this system, very good going forward and able to be a threat on the wing when he gets the ball in the opposition half.
I think that is very accurate. It wouldn't be the end of the world to get caught out considering we would have 3 defenders always staying back and two wing-backs who'd often provide cover as well.
Who has won their league in recent years with 3 at the back?
Juventus in a poor Serie A
Barcelona try a 3 at the back under Pep?
Juventus in a poor Serie A
Barcelona try a 3 at the back under Pep?
When Barca done it under Pep i think it was in 2012, the year they lost the title to Madrid. From what i remember i dont think it suited their team when they deployed it.
I don't think Barcelona played it the way we are - IIRC it was more of a Dream Team styled 3-4-3 which was much more adventurous... Possibly even the same or similar system to what Van Gaal used at Ajax.