So the 3-5-2

[In Rainbows]

Well, for one I've not noticed his suggested extraordinary vision or passing ability (with regards to the #10 position). That's something I've seen in Mata here and at Chelsea, and in Kagawa at Dortmund (only rarely here). I don't see him as that type of player - maybe he'll prove me wrong eventually, but right now I can't see it.

He has an extraordinary ability to beat players and has a decent finish in him. He's got everything in his locker to be an Alexis Sanchez sort of player (or a superior version), a wide forward who cuts in and causes havoc in the box.

I'm assuming he won't be joining the squad in America? A shame, he didn't get to play much for Belgium either.

He's always had passing ability and vision. Here are some passes from last season:

Spoiler

Or take a look at this u21 performance last season. There is a quite a difference between how he played for the youth team and the first team. Much less dribbling, more centrally, and wonderful vision. A shame there are only so few of his performances uploaded on youtube.



The only reason you haven't seen it from him in the 10 position is because he has rarely played there. He can play centrally or out wide. He's not tied down to a position because of his ability in all areas of the game. Besides, whether he's a #10 or a winger, he'll spend large amounts of time on the pitch outwide or centrally.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Not to convinced it'll work. I've got two main gripes with it. Firstly we lack the personnel to make it work, and secondly I just don't like the way that Van Gaal is trying to set it up.

We lack a sweeper which is basically what the man in the middle of the defense does in this formation. Someone to bring it out from the back, composed on the ball, quick enough to sniff out trouble before it happens while also being the person to bring it out from the back. The closest we have to this player is evans and even with him I'm not too convinced. What's suprising is he's trying to turn jones into that player but I just can't see it working.

Secondly we lack a holding mid capable of the job. If he's really going to stick to this formation it'd be in the best interest of the club to find and purchase such a player. He needs to be comfortable on the ball, with excellent reading of play and defensive work. How many are there really on the market with such qualities? Buying a vidal just wouldn't fit such a description.

My issue with the way he sets it up is that he's trying to use 2 mids, with a no10 in front of them which IMO against europe and the prems elite it'll simply have us exposed to the 2 v 1 wide play that's becoming more and more fashionable amongst top clubs. That's something that juve learned the hard way vs bayern a few years ago although it should be said that they fared much better versus the current CL champions when they played them. Having a no10 who plays and defends like one is going to hurt us somewhere in the defensive structure as we need 3 in midfield to make sure all basis are covered.

Its a great formation vs teams teams that try to play through the middle but that isn't the norm in our league. The gaps behind the fullbacks are likely to be exposed and with a playmaker there who's not covering his side of the play like a no8 or box to box would this just wouldn't end well IMO.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

We lack a sweeper which is basically what the man in the middle of the defense does in this formation. Someone to bring it out from the back, composed on the ball, quick enough to sniff out trouble before it happens while also being the person to bring it out from the back. The closest we have to this player is evans and even with him I'm not too convinced. What's suprising is he's trying to turn jones into that player but I just can't see it working.

Secondly we lack a holding mid capable of the job. If he's really going to stick to this formation it'd be in the best interest of the club to find and purchase such a player. He needs to be comfortable on the ball, with excellent reading of play and defensive work. How many are there really on the market with such qualities? Buying a vidal just wouldn't fit such a description.

We're extremely likely, in my opinion, to sign a player each of this ilk.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I posted this in another thread:

Who are the 4 number 10s?

Mata - sure
Kagawa - sure
Januzaj - not in my opinion, mostly seen as a winger
Fellaini - probably
Rooney - not in my opinion, seen as a number 9
Powell - probably
Herrera - not in my opinion, seen as a midfielder

Have I missed anyone? All these players can play as a number 10, but Januzaj, Rooney and Herrera have other primary position. To me the 4 are Mata, Kagawa, Fellaini and Powell. One of them will likely go and I think it's between Fellaini and Powell. Kagawa is more similar to Mata and makes a good backup. Fellaini brings something different - we have seen at the WC that if LVG is loosing he likes to change the tactics and throw a tall target man in the last 15 minutes. Fellaini is probably best suited for that in our team. Which leaves Powell - I think it's not a coincidence that LVG has asked him to join the team on the tour - he is going to be evaluated and shipped if not good enough. I would rank the chance of one of the number 10s leaving like that:

Mata: 0%
Kagawa: 10% to get sold
Fellaini: 40% to get sold
Powell: 50% to get loaned or sold

I was just thinking about this again, and I have a feeling Van Gaal could be talking about Lingard as one of the number 10's. Played there for Brighton, England U21's and had a couple of pre season games for us a couple of seasons ago.

 

[Sb_16]

Where will be likes of Lingard, Lawrence fit into this system? And wouldn't Januzaj and Wilson be competing directly with each other and the veterans for a spot? Afterall, these are the names we are hoping they make an impact this season, aren't we?

 

[NoPace]

With few teams playing 3-5-2, you have to wonder if there's a sweeper type who is currently doing well as a CB or DM but would really excel as a CB but was born 25 years too late. A Sammer-esque ball carrier or a Rafa Marquez or Koeman style long-passer.

 

[FromTheBench]

Where will be likes of Lingard, Lawrence fit into this system? And wouldn't Januzaj and Wilson be competing directly with each other and the veterans for a spot? Afterall, these are the names we are hoping they make an impact this season, aren't we?

Lingard probably has to compete for the AM slot. Lawrence can play as one of the front 2.

And this is better for Wilson's chances as a striker anyway.

 

[gooDevil]

Lawrence is better as a striker than as a winger anyway.

 

[LoiusVanGaal]

if anyone can get Rooney & Van Persie playing well together up front, it's LVG, can't wait to see them paired by him!

 

[Dracula]

Finally managed to watch the game last night. It looked fine and players looked comfortable. One thing I would say however is that for all this talk of who our 4 number 10s are, has anyone mentioned that in the second half herrera played the number 10 with kagawa playing as cm. That one surprised me

 

[gooDevil]

It occurred to me the 4th no.10 is obviously Fellaini.

 

[Sandikan]

Not to convinced it'll work. I've got two main gripes with it. Firstly we lack the personnel to make it work, and secondly I just don't like the way that Van Gaal is trying to set it up.

We lack a sweeper which is basically what the man in the middle of the defense does in this formation. Someone to bring it out from the back, composed on the ball, quick enough to sniff out trouble before it happens while also being the person to bring it out from the back. The closest we have to this player is evans and even with him I'm not too convinced. What's suprising is he's trying to turn jones into that player but I just can't see it working.

Secondly we lack a holding mid capable of the job. If he's really going to stick to this formation it'd be in the best interest of the club to find and purchase such a player. He needs to be comfortable on the ball, with excellent reading of play and defensive work. How many are there really on the market with such qualities? Buying a vidal just wouldn't fit such a description.

My issue with the way he sets it up is that he's trying to use 2 mids, with a no10 in front of them which IMO against europe and the prems elite it'll simply have us exposed to the 2 v 1 wide play that's becoming more and more fashionable amongst top clubs. That's something that juve learned the hard way vs bayern a few years ago although it should be said that they fared much better versus the current CL champions when they played them. Having a no10 who plays and defends like one is going to hurt us somewhere in the defensive structure as we need 3 in midfield to make sure all basis are covered.

Its a great formation vs teams teams that try to play through the middle but that isn't the norm in our league. The gaps behind the fullbacks are likely to be exposed and with a playmaker there who's not covering his side of the play like a no8 or box to box would this just wouldn't end well IMO.

Of course, you're pointing out the lack of personnel for the 3-5-2, but you could argue the same for 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 or 4-1-3-2, as all could be argued need that defensive mid we don't really have, and those also need quality wingers, which on the last 2 years viewing we don't really have either.

3-5-2, looks to make the best of Rooney, VP and Mata. That's a start, as that was the main conundrum

 

[LoiusVanGaal]

Januzaj is a number 10...only used as a winger by Moyes cause Moyes felt we couldn't play without wingers.

the four are;

Mata - staying for sure as he is a new signing & great in that role for us even last season
Kagawa - big big question marks over him, pretty unimpressive last season for the most part, could easily be sold imo
Januzaj - young prospect, no chance we will sell him.
Fellaini - failed to impress in his first season, wouldn't be at all surprised if he was sold

I imagine we will sell Fellaini, quite possibly Kagawa also.

Powell has youth on his side so not sure he would be sold, loaned out maybe but I doubt he was in our first team plans anyway

 

[Kill 'em all]

"We are all pleased with the result but we know this is just the first step," the Spanish midfielder explained. “Some of the players have only been training for three or four days so we have more improvements to come, both physically and tactically.

“But I think we had a good understanding of the new system and the football the manager wanted us to play. It was a good game for us. The manager wants us to play quickly with the ball in the middle, try to look for options and also play with width as well. That’s what we’ll keep trying to do.”

Mata on the 3-5-2.

 

[Escobar]

The problem I can see with 3-5-2 is that it leaves too much space between the back 3 and the wing backs. It's a difficult task to play wing back imo and I prefer 4 at the back. Plus it might lack witdth from the attacking players. Let's see if we can implement that and be successful against stronger teams

 

[Bojan11]

I don't know why people are worried about this formation against stronger teams. Holland got it to work perfect against the bigger teams. It's when they came up in matches when they were favourites that they had to change during the game.

 

[gooDevil]

I don't know why people are worried about this formation against stronger teams. Holland got it to work perfect against the bigger teams. It's when they came up in matches when they were favourites that they had to change during the game.

People look at the XI and they see 3 CBs and they think they're losing an attacker.

But it's all in the execution. At one point Evans was pushing about 2/3rds up the field along the left to get the ball into attack.

As long as the CBs are active and push up when needed then I see no problem at all.

I'm more worried about Valencia not really being a wingback.

 

[gooDevil]

Not to convinced it'll work. I've got two main gripes with it. Firstly we lack the personnel to make it work, and secondly I just don't like the way that Van Gaal is trying to set it up.

We lack a sweeper which is basically what the man in the middle of the defense does in this formation. Someone to bring it out from the back, composed on the ball, quick enough to sniff out trouble before it happens while also being the person to bring it out from the back. The closest we have to this player is evans and even with him I'm not too convinced. What's suprising is he's trying to turn jones into that player but I just can't see it working.

Secondly we lack a holding mid capable of the job. If he's really going to stick to this formation it'd be in the best interest of the club to find and purchase such a player. He needs to be comfortable on the ball, with excellent reading of play and defensive work. How many are there really on the market with such qualities? Buying a vidal just wouldn't fit such a description.

My issue with the way he sets it up is that he's trying to use 2 mids, with a no10 in front of them which IMO against europe and the prems elite it'll simply have us exposed to the 2 v 1 wide play that's becoming more and more fashionable amongst top clubs. That's something that juve learned the hard way vs bayern a few years ago although it should be said that they fared much better versus the current CL champions when they played them. Having a no10 who plays and defends like one is going to hurt us somewhere in the defensive structure as we need 3 in midfield to make sure all basis are covered.

Its a great formation vs teams teams that try to play through the middle but that isn't the norm in our league. The gaps behind the fullbacks are likely to be exposed and with a playmaker there who's not covering his side of the play like a no8 or box to box would this just wouldn't end well IMO.

Jones seems to be an ideal sweeper, though I think he still has a bit to improve.

But he's a CB comfortable enough to play as a defensive midfielder, pretty much the job description.

 

[Kill 'em all]

I still think some of you are still against this because we won't sign Di Maria, Griezmann and Reus. If a manager like van Gaal who's won everything thinks it's the way to go, it is the way to go.

 

[gooDevil]

I still think some of you are still against this because we won't sign Di Maria, Griezmann and Reus. If a manager like van Gaal who's won everything thinks it's the way to go, it is the way to go.

Reus is great as a no.10, and he's could probably play the same role that Robben played for Holland as well.

Didn't di Maria play in midfield for Real this season?

 

[Welsh Wonder]

People look at the XI and they see 3 CBs and they think they're losing an attacker.

But it's all in the execution. At one point Evans was pushing about 2/3rds up the field along the left to get the ball into attack.

As long as the CBs are active and push up when needed then I see no problem at all.

I'm more worried about Valencia not really being a wingback.

He's not really an anything these days.

 

[Matador8]

I still think some of you are still against this because we won't sign Di Maria, Griezmann and Reus. If a manager like van Gaal who's won everything thinks it's the way to go, it is the way to go.

I think it's a good way to accommodate the more talented players we've got up front. He also said if it doesn't work he will change the system. He's so decisive, it's like a breath of fresh air compared to last season. Even talking about formations the way he does gives you confidence. I never Once heard formations and tactics being discussed at any point last season from the previous management team.

 

[Baby Faced Assassin]

This is my concern. Particularly when we play Chelsea and Liverpool. Their wider players, such as: Hazard, William, Sterling, Coutinho, Markovic etc are all intelligent players. They'll look to exploit the space behind the wing-backs and drag our CBs out wide.

I think in the big games against superior team, he will consider switching to a more safe and robust 4-3-3.

 

[NMF]

I'm still not 100% sure this will work in the premier league.

 

[.J4Me$.]

Think Hummels would make the perfect middle man at the back. Comfortable on the ball and can pick out a forward pass. Shame there is about 5% chance of getting him mind.
Carrick would be a good option though for now.

 

[bishblaize]

Firstly we lack the personnel to make it work,

I dont think this is a big issue. I think its a safe assumption that LVG will bring in new players. I mean look at our defence. We have 1 LB, 1 RB and 3 CBs + some youngsters. Whether we play a back three or a four we definitely need reinforcements in that area. So we're already committed to bringing people in. He'll just go for players he knows can work whatever system he's going for.

Secondly we lack a holding mid capable of the job. If he's really going to stick to this formation it'd be in the best interest of the club to find and purchase such a player. He needs to be comfortable on the ball, with excellent reading of play and defensive work. How many are there really on the market with such qualities? Buying a vidal just wouldn't fit such a description.

I don't think that having a back 4 based formation obviates the need for a holding midfielder. There are times you need someone to shield your defence, whether its three or four. Indeed you might argue that a pure holding midfielder is less important in a back three, because one of them can step out to make early interventions and still leave two behind, which you cant do with a CB pair.

My issue with the way he sets it up is that he's trying to use 2 mids, with a no10 in front of them which IMO against europe and the prems elite it'll simply have us exposed to the 2 v 1 wide play that's becoming more and more fashionable amongst top clubs.

There's two reasons I'm not too worried about that.

Firstly is the fairly obvious issue that we're not in Europe this year, so we're not going to be facing many of those top teams. Our season this year is going to be defined by how we perform against teams outside the top 4. If consistently we do well against them we'll make the top 4, and then our performances against the top 4 will simply define where in the top 4 we finish.

I'm personally ambivalent about playing with a pure number 10, but recognise that our squad make up kind of demands it. However the time it works best is in games against teams sitting back where you need to make a breakthrough, and managing that's going to be a large part of our success. We can deal with managing Suarez/Messi/Neymar coming at us from wide positions next season.

The other thing is that LVG has shown himself to be a very flexible manager wrt formations. There's no reason to think that he'd rather lose a game of football than change his approach (something I've often wondered of Wenger). I'm sure that when we play Chelsea at OT and face (arguably) the best counter attackers in the league, he'll choose a formation to take account of that.

 

[Dracula]

One thing that seems to have been missed was LVG's snipe at the transfer situation with the comment that the team is unbalanced.

The 352/343 is, it appears chosen out of necessity with current squad as opposed to his prefered formation. Any signings he wants to make may be with the intention of a 433 (I.e di maria) but the use of the current system suggests that he has little to no confidence of such signings being made.

If we DO end up utilising the 343, then I think it says a lot regarding woodward and his continued inability to sign top ppayers. The formation is out of necessity rather than choice

 

[bishblaize]

One thing that seems to have been missed was LVG's snipe at the transfer situation with the comment that the team is unbalanced.

The 352/343 is, it appears chosen out of necessity with current squad as opposed to his prefered formation. Any signings he wants to make may be with the intention of a 433 (I.e di maria) but the use of the current system suggests that he has little to no confidence of such signings being made.

If we DO end up utilising the 343, then I think it says a lot regarding woodward and his continued inability to sign top ppayers. The formation is out of necessity rather than choice

I think you're reading into something that isn't there. I can't see any way in which what he said translates into a fear he won't be able to get the players he wants.

 

[Dracula]

I think you're reading into something that isn't there. I can't see any way in which what he said translates into a fear he won't be able to get the players he wants.

No, don't think he said that, but he said the squad is imbalanced, indicating he thinks a different squad would be more suited to what he wants and that the 343 is him adapting to that. If we then cant change the squad to remoge this 'imbalance' it would suggest we havent operated on the way he wants in transfer market

 

[bishblaize]

No, don't think he said that, but he said the squad is imbalanced, indicating he thinks a different squad would be more suited to what he wants and that the 343 is him adapting to that. If we then cant change the squad to remoge this 'imbalance' it would suggest we havent operated on the way he wants in transfer market

That would be the case if he said anything about being unable to change the squad in the future, but he didn't. All he said was that it was unbalanced, which is a criticism of the choices made in the past. It may or may not have been a swipe at Moyes, or even Fergie, but I don't see a criticism of our current transfer dealings in there.

 

[RedStarUnited]

No, don't think he said that, but he said the squad is imbalanced, indicating he thinks a different squad would be more suited to what he wants and that the 343 is him adapting to that. If we then cant change the squad to remoge this 'imbalance' it would suggest we havent operated on the way he wants in transfer market

Erm no.

Its not balanced in the sense that we have too many "good" attacking midfielders and strikers.
He said he cant play 4-3-3 because that would mean 3 strikers are being benched. The 3-5-2 is largely there to accommodate the strikers and abundance of number 10s we have.

 

[Hamadovich86]

One thing that seems to have been missed was LVG's snipe at the transfer situation with the comment that the team is unbalanced.

The 352/343 is, it appears chosen out of necessity with current squad as opposed to his prefered formation. Any signings he wants to make may be with the intention of a 433 (I.e di maria) but the use of the current system suggests that he has little to no confidence of such signings being made.

If we DO end up utilising the 343, then I think it says a lot regarding woodward and his continued inability to sign top ppayers. The formation is out of necessity rather than choice

LvG said hes using this system because its the best way to utilize the players we have. We have an abundance of strikers and number 10s which is why 352 is his chosen formation I dont think it has anything to do with the transfer markets. Im sure he knows that without another competent CM the 352 wont work.

 

[Oneunited26]

352 truly is the problem solver to fit all of RVP rooney mata and janazaj, the diamond works to fit rooney RVP and mata, but I do hope VG goes with a 352. Its just a bit of a headache how to fit in a fullback. Are we playing a straight up 3 CB's, maybe that is why valencia was resigned to a contract, to fill in that position to cover our CB's in a 3 man defence at the back

----------------DDG
------------Jones smalling
valencia -----Herrera ??-------------shaw
--------------mata---------janazaj
---------rooney---RVP-------------

 

[Glanville95]

352 truly is the problem solver to fit all of RVP rooney mata and janazaj, the diamond works to fit rooney RVP and mata, but I do hope VG goes with a 352. Its just a bit of a headache how to fit in a fullback. Are we playing a straight up 3 CB's, maybe that is why valencia was resigned to a contract, to fill in that position to cover our CB's in a 3 man defence at the back

-----DDG
------------Jones smalling
valencia ----------------------shaw
--------------mata---------janazaj
---------rooney---RVP-------------

That would essentially be a back four.

 

[Oneunited26]

That would essentially be a back four.

Was still finish off the lineup with herrera ??, perhaps that is why valencia was resigned, its a back 4, but still set up has a 352.

DDG
jones smalling shaw
Valencia used has a wide fullback
with herrera another in CM
with janazaj mata rooney and RVP all fitting into this 352 system. It could work

 

[Manucho the boss]

Hopefully with our superior players we don't have to play a similar style to the Dutch even if it's the same formation.

They only tried to play on the counter attack and lead to some very negative football against teams that were happy to sit back and leave no space for Robben to break.

Another concern about 3-5-2 is how reliant that formation is on good wing backs to provide width to the attack. From what we've seen of Shaw he's a better defender than he is getting forward (think he had 1 assist last season). Rafael on the other side already has horrible positional discipline as a right back, at right wing back I can picture him constantly being caught the wrong side of wingers and getting lots of cards. Valencia has the engine to do the role but not much of a threat going forward.

Wing backs getting caught up the pitch rely on the holding midfielder to cover them too, I don't think Carrick or Fletcher have that mobility to cover the wide positions quickly, signing someone like De Jong will happen I believe.

 

[Jonno]

The Four Number 10's are quite simply

Rooney
Mata
Fellaini
Kagawa

It was interesting to see him play Mata in a deeper role against the Galaxy. I think Fellaini will be offloaded.

With regards to the new system, it guided Holland to 3rd in the world cup, and it helped us play very good short quick passing, lots more possession, and meant we didn't have to play with two shite wingers either side, losing our possession. I think the day we play with two wingers again should be the day we have two actual world class wingers in our team. I grew so tired of watching Ashley Young trying to take his man on, or Valencia slowing to a complete stop. Tony being RWB is much more suited to him, it allows the more creative players to do the work higher up the pitch.

 

[Kill 'em all]

Hopefully with our superior players we don't have to play a similar style to the Dutch even if it's the same formation.

They only tried to play on the counter attack and lead to some very negative football against teams that were happy to sit back and leave no space for Robben to break.

Another concern about 3-5-2 is how reliant that formation is on good wing backs to provide width to the attack. From what we've seen of Shaw he's a better defender than he is getting forward (think he had 1 assist last season). Rafael on the other side already has horrible positional discipline as a right back, at right wing back I can picture him constantly being caught the wrong side of wingers and getting lots of cards. Valencia has the engine to do the role but not much of a threat going forward.

Wing backs getting caught up the pitch rely on the holding midfielder to cover them too, I don't think Carrick or Fletcher have that mobility to cover the wide positions quickly, signing someone like De Jong will happen I believe.

According to Squawka, Shaw is the 2nd best fullback to take players on. He also created 35 chances throughout the season.

One area where Shaw is already significantly better than Evra is dribbling. Seamus Coleman is the only defender to complete more take-ons than Shaw’s 56 last season, with the Saints player averaging 1.69 per 90 minutes to Evra’s 0.81.

 

[Manucho the boss]

According to Squawka, Shaw is the 2nd best fullback to take players on. He also created 35 chances throughout the season.

Maybe he was dribbling past their winger in his own half or something, when I've watched Southampton I didn't see him create much, more attacks seemed to come down the right side with Clyne or even Chambers getting forward.

 

[soulblight3r]

According to Squawka, Shaw is the 2nd best fullback to take players on. He also created 35 chances throughout the season.

One area where Shaw is already significantly better than Evra is dribbling. Seamus Coleman is the only defender to complete more take-ons than Shaw’s 56 last season, with the Saints player averaging 1.69 per 90 minutes to Evra’s 0.81.

If you are going to use last season as an indicator for comparison, we will be poor in all areas surely. It was a record breaking season for all the wrong reasons