it's pathetic
So the 3-5-2
- Thread starter Ole's_toe_poke
- Start date
I see what you're saying. I think 4-2-3-1 has merit, but it doesn't solve one of the issues you raise.
Shaw, Adnan and Rafa may be in their traditional positions, but Herrera and Vidal would be wasted in deep midfield. In a 4-2-3-1 most of your width comes from your full backs which means you need two central midfielders who can be disciplined enough to just pick their moments to attack and spend most of the time behind the play. Herrera is not far off being a number 10 himself (though he's not) and Vidal is at his best driving forward. Both would be very limited by doing that deep midfield role.
Plus playing Rooney on the left/right of a 3 would also be limit him (same if it was Mata). He doesn't need to be a true winger in that role, but he's the one expected to pull into wide areas.
So you end up with Herrera/Vidal/Rooney all playing in less than an ideal position/formation for getting the most out of them. Either way its not a complete round-peg-round-hole scenario.
Where LVG is completely right is that our squad is unbalanced. The fact we can hardly field a formation with everyone playing in their natural positions is terrible.
Manchester United 2014-2015
Exactly. Didn't he only change Holland to that formation when Strootman got injured? Picking a United team with the same formation is probably more a reflection on our limited options in central midfield than anything else.
Also don't get the concerns about Januzaj getting games. If he's good enough he'll get games, whatever formation we use. If not, he won't. People get far too hung up on formations IMO. Ultimately, Van Gaal is all about "total football" and will always find a way to pick the best footballers in our squad. Januzaj is as technical and skilled as they come. If he kicks on from what he showed last season then Van Gaal will give him a lot of games, one way or another.
Only the fact that we're having this discussion proves that we have a proper manager again, able to make us play modern football and get the best out of each player. I know it was only a friendly match but, in these 90 minutes, i saw more off the ball movement than in all our matches last season. Here are some thoughts.
The three men at the back: i don't think it will be the only formation used in the upcoming season. We will probably start with it and see where it gets us. A lot will depend on how our current CBs' understanding of what the manager asks of them goes and how much improvement they'll show, both technical and mental.
From what i understand LvG's approach on the matter is similar to his decisions for the Dutch national team. He probably believes that no pairing among our current CBs can do the job efficiently at top level. The 3 CBs provide more safety, considering that most teams nowadays play with one centre forward. You can have one man to man and 2 CBs, instead of one, covering half the space in the box. With one CM being able to drop deeper you can have 4 players in the box making clearances and picking the runs of the opposition attackers. Some are complaining about the space on our WBs' back. Well, if you can have at least 4 players defending in your box, the opposition winger can have as much space as he wants near the corner flag. For example, Argentina tried to overload their right side with Lavezzi, Messi and Higuain and hit the open space behind Blind. Although they achieved that, they couldn't create any real chances.
The utilization of Shaw: It's no secret that his attacking game needs improvement. Yet what he can offer in the defence, especially his ability in 1v1 situations, might help the balance of our starting xi, considering that our choices at RWB are both better in building up attacks and providing options in the final third. The space on the left, when we have the ball, can be filled with off the ball movement from the forwards (Rooney,RvP and Wellbeck can do that) or the midfielders. Shaw can stay a little behind them and help with regaining possession high up the pitch. Even in 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, he'd still have to do overlaps or underlaps, so what's all the fuzz about?
The balance, four "10s" issue. To me it sounded more like a complaint about not getting the players he wants as soon as possible. Even without European football, there'll be injuries and players out of form. The players we have give him the flexibility to try different things. If we're facing teams which park the bus' the Mata, Rooney and van Persie trio can do the trick. If the opposition have CBs who defend well in the box, we can use Welbeck and Januzaj to tire them and force them to break their defensive balance with their continuous movement in and out of the box. When the opposition DM isn't good on the ball, we can use Kagawa to press high and hit in transition etc. I believe LvG just wants the signings in the midfield and in defence to start arriving.
And i also believe that the ultimate goal is a creation of a squad that can play 4-3-3 at top level. Our choices, from the summer of 2009 onwards, have left us behind in certain areas. We work with what we have this moment but have faith, we'll get there!
The three men at the back: i don't think it will be the only formation used in the upcoming season. We will probably start with it and see where it gets us. A lot will depend on how our current CBs' understanding of what the manager asks of them goes and how much improvement they'll show, both technical and mental.
From what i understand LvG's approach on the matter is similar to his decisions for the Dutch national team. He probably believes that no pairing among our current CBs can do the job efficiently at top level. The 3 CBs provide more safety, considering that most teams nowadays play with one centre forward. You can have one man to man and 2 CBs, instead of one, covering half the space in the box. With one CM being able to drop deeper you can have 4 players in the box making clearances and picking the runs of the opposition attackers. Some are complaining about the space on our WBs' back. Well, if you can have at least 4 players defending in your box, the opposition winger can have as much space as he wants near the corner flag. For example, Argentina tried to overload their right side with Lavezzi, Messi and Higuain and hit the open space behind Blind. Although they achieved that, they couldn't create any real chances.
The utilization of Shaw: It's no secret that his attacking game needs improvement. Yet what he can offer in the defence, especially his ability in 1v1 situations, might help the balance of our starting xi, considering that our choices at RWB are both better in building up attacks and providing options in the final third. The space on the left, when we have the ball, can be filled with off the ball movement from the forwards (Rooney,RvP and Wellbeck can do that) or the midfielders. Shaw can stay a little behind them and help with regaining possession high up the pitch. Even in 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, he'd still have to do overlaps or underlaps, so what's all the fuzz about?
The balance, four "10s" issue. To me it sounded more like a complaint about not getting the players he wants as soon as possible. Even without European football, there'll be injuries and players out of form. The players we have give him the flexibility to try different things. If we're facing teams which park the bus' the Mata, Rooney and van Persie trio can do the trick. If the opposition have CBs who defend well in the box, we can use Welbeck and Januzaj to tire them and force them to break their defensive balance with their continuous movement in and out of the box. When the opposition DM isn't good on the ball, we can use Kagawa to press high and hit in transition etc. I believe LvG just wants the signings in the midfield and in defence to start arriving.
And i also believe that the ultimate goal is a creation of a squad that can play 4-3-3 at top level. Our choices, from the summer of 2009 onwards, have left us behind in certain areas. We work with what we have this moment but have faith, we'll get there!
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What is his strength then? At Southampton he was more or less a wing back... pretty much on the wing.
His final cross, and final ball needs to get a bit better. But he's got the pace, fitness and attacking intent to play there.
Was just about to post the same that with current personnel this is our best 11, I guess with Carrick injured Fletcher come in, and hopefully a signing in due course. But this looks good to me. Januzaj or Kagawa I believe could come in to play in the Mata position or Rooney and then bringing on Hernandez. I also think Welbeck could do it as he's shown his tracking back but would do it in a different style. As with Rooney or Welbeck playing up top alongside RVP.
It definitely caters to allowing us to play more forward players but puts pressure on Fletcher / Herrera / Carrick to work well positionally and not leave gaps, and the wing backs to do as much work as possible but directions. I can see this being Valencia's most common position but would rather Rafael myself.
I personally think Jones and Smalling suit the marking job more than Evans and Evans reads the game well enough to play sweeper, so it could easily work. Interesting definitely intrigued to see how this beds in.
I just realised something, when LVG talked of us having "four number 10's" and therefore being unbalanced I think he might have meant four strikers (RVP, Rooney, Welbeck and Hernandez) rather than 'number 10's' in the way we mean the term. It fits because he also talked about wanting to play two strikers.
Could be but I dont think so. Van Gaal always uses number 10 to mean the guy in front of his 8 and 6, the attacking midfielder. He said the reason he didn't wanna play 4-3-3 was because it would leave 4 strikers on the bench, to Van Gaal the striker is the 9.
I'm not sure, but that doesn't really matter. Holland did very well, and, in my opinion, overachieved with the squad they had playing a 3-4-1-2 in the World Cup.
I also remember Brendan Rodgers playing it a few times last season with Liverpool and doing pretty well. Hull also got to the final of the F.A. Cup with it.
I don't think it'll be a formation we'll always use, but it could be used a fair bit next season.
He was a full back not a wing back
Yes, but his positioning is more or less similar to a wing back, as Pochettino likes to have his full backs very high up the pitch.
I don't think so, Van Gaal has always played with number 10s and has always called that position a 10.
When talking about 4 strikers he gave that as reason to why he's swithing to the 3-5-2. When talking about 4 number 10s he's talking about why the squad is even with 3-5-2 still unbalanced, considering that's 4 players for 1 position. All in all, I'm convinced he thinks the squad is quite unbalanced overall. If he felt he had amazing wingers then he wouldn't be switching to 3-5-2 either. And like with the Netherlands squad he might have worries about defensive midfield and defense aswell.
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You guys take this formation talk way too seriously .
.You guys take this formation talk way too seriously
Maybe, but his 3-5-2 will mean a completely different style of football than his 4-3-3. I'd say that's relevant, as we're going to watch that the whole season.
Football isn't just a game.You guys take this formation talk way too seriously
haha! We will seeVan Gaal is our coach and with his belief in youth i'm confident i'll oust you out of the 10 position.
He was on about 4 strikers so Rooney must be one of them.
I would say Mata Kagawa young and Powell might be our No 10's
I would say Mata Kagawa young and Powell might be our No 10's
Januzaj?
Completely different style of football? how so?
De Gea (Lindegaard)
Smalling (Jones) - Jones (Vermaelen) - Evans (Blind)
Valencia (Rafael) - Schneiderlin (Carrick) - Herrera (Cleverley) - Shaw (Blind)
Mata (Kagawa)
Van Persie (Januzaj) - Rooney (Welbeck)
Smalling (Jones) - Jones (Vermaelen) - Evans (Blind)
Valencia (Rafael) - Schneiderlin (Carrick) - Herrera (Cleverley) - Shaw (Blind)
Mata (Kagawa)
Van Persie (Januzaj) - Rooney (Welbeck)
Rest are squad players. Quite a few need to be sold, though. Our squad is too big, in my opinion. Some of the players on massive wages will be struggling to make the bench.
Not clearly. But I think, given that a move to 4-3-3 would mean Rooney or Welbz or both dropping out for Van Persie we can say 2 of the 3 strikers that would have to be benched are clearly centre forwards not trequartistas.
Shaw and Rafael have't got the delivery or creativity to play the wing back roles at a high level as it stands now.
Well, you've seen the Netherlands at the World Cup? His 3-5-2 is more counter attacking, not a high defensive line, not early pressing, only at moments. It's not really possible to play a consistent early pressing game without real wingers. While his 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 has always been very possession based style of football, early pressing, high defensive line etc. Very different styles of football.
Yeh might be
kagawa mata rooney and adnan id say
No, that's completely wrong. He was a proper fullback. Bombing forwards now and then, yes, but his real strength was in his defending not his attacking. And he was certainly nothing at all like a wingback.
People just don't understand what a wingback in this sort of formation is. It's not an attacking fullback. It's closer to an old-fashioned hug-the-touchline winger than any kind of fullback. High starting position, can mostly focus on attacking but must be somewhat defensively responsible, holds a wide line.
None of which plays to Shaw's strengths.
Of course you can. It's all about how and where you press.
That's what he used for the Dutch. I'm not entirely sure what he has in store for us yet. He said 3-4-3 but then hinted at trying other formations. Plus, we've only had one game so far.
What you've described is how 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 can be used. You can use it in a counterattacking fashion though.
He won't use it, he only did so because he missed Carrick and a potential CDM signing.
Van Gaal's exact comment is actually really difficult to interpret.
I think he's talking about number 10s as strikers. If we play 433 we only play with one striker, leaving the other three on the bench. But he wants to play with two strikers (RvP and Rooney) so plays 352 to allow both of them to start. The comment about us having "four No10s" is completely random and bizarre in any other context.
So basically, the four "No10s" he's referring to are Rooney, RvP, Welbeck and Hernandez.
I think he's talking about number 10s as strikers. If we play 433 we only play with one striker, leaving the other three on the bench. But he wants to play with two strikers (RvP and Rooney) so plays 352 to allow both of them to start. The comment about us having "four No10s" is completely random and bizarre in any other context.
So basically, the four "No10s" he's referring to are Rooney, RvP, Welbeck and Hernandez.
In fairness you can't really use Holland as an example of how we'll play. He chose that style of play for the simple reason that the squad wasn't very good, particularly once Strootman had gone out injured. I doubt very much he'll use a 'sit back and counter' policy at United. Almost every club he's been at he's insisted on regaining possession early and constantly attacking - I'm sure that will be his Plan A at United too.
Instead of a 3-5-2, why not a 442 diamond instead. I think that would suit our team better with jones in the holding midfield role so he can drop back and form a 3 at the back if need be and allow the fullbacks to push on.
--------------Jones-------------
------Herrera-------Kagawa---
---------------Mata------------
-------Rooney------Rvp--------
--------------Jones-------------
------Herrera-------Kagawa---
---------------Mata------------
-------Rooney------Rvp--------
Not really, an consistent early pressing game isn't about when, it's always and immediate. You're not going to accomplish that without wingers putting pressure on their left and right back. These aren't just my words by the way, Van Gaal has said the same. A wingback doesn't have that same role, will not be that high up the field that much. Either way, his 3-5-2 is completely different from possession based styles. Tends to drop back.
I think I can, he chose that formation because he thought the squad was unbalanced. He's doing the exact same thing with us. That style of football comes with the formation. You're not going to get more possession by playing an extra central defender.
So far he said 3-5-2 is his plan A. Against much weaker sides that means we'll still be able to dominate, then if we can't score he might switch to 4-3-3 to build up pressure, or he starts like that from the start. Against good sides though he's going to sit back, you'll see.
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I don't think the new formation will be the most telling innovation this season. Looking at the passing last night, the really obvious thing to me was the number of tiny passing triangles. That's different to both Moyes and Fergie's way of doing things. I guess if you pack the midfield with Spanish players this was always bound to happen. Welbeck and Kagawa are particularly good at it as well. High tempo football could be back for the first time since 2007.
Watch out for the width nazis.
Could be, but I thought the idea of a number 9 as striker was universal. Maybe it was just a brainfreeze and he meant 9 but said 10. I could do with seeing the video.
It could also be a 'but we have four number 10s', ie I can just about find a way to deal with four strikers, but then I have four Number 10s to deal with.
Surely those two formations are as similar as makes no difference? When you play three centrebacks you'll always have the option of allowing one of them to bomb forward. Jones or Evans would be great at that role.
Formations.
you just highlighted "when" it happens but in different words. don't use an ipse dixit argument. do you know fully what van gaal meant? you can use a possession based 3-5-2 or a counterattacking 3-5-2. the formation doesnt necessarily infuse the style a coach wants to implement.
you must not have seen the games where the dutch, under van gaal, pressed the opposition immediately after losing the ball. and defensively, they were in a 3-5-2ish shape. so i'm not really sure what you're trying to say.
I'm already expecting them. But it's essentially the same thing. When we attack jones drops back and the full back push on. It essentially allows us to play our technical midgets together in midfield.