Anyone else think Welbeck could play as the rwb if Van Gaal wants to play him aswell as Rooney and RVP? Good enough defensively and dribblling, good passing, the only thing he'd be lacking is crossing, which I'm sure Van Gaal could help him work on. Will be interested to see if Van Gaal tries this at any point in pre-season. Shaw and Rafa should be the first choices still, but based on form, I think Danny could do a job there. He looked excellent yesterday anyway.
So the 3-5-2
- Thread starter Ole's_toe_poke
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Last time we used a back 3 was De Laet-Carrick-Fletcher vs. Fulham?
He's going on and on about the disaster of the fullbacks being free to push forward. I might ask what would happen if the number 10 or the number 6 receives the ball in that situation? It will result in a 3 or 4 vs the 2 center backs in a matter of seconds. That space he's so proudly highlighting will be used for our own sake to create a clear goalscoring chance, the same way Robben created his chances from a counter attacking situation.
That would only happen if the opponent is desperately chasing the game.
Realistically, the opponent is more likely to be balanced and have at least 2 players (midfielder(s) and or opposite fullback) to cover accordingly.
Interestingly, I think such a scenario stresses the importance of having at least 1 energetic central midfielder who can press and attack well. Herrera fits the bill perfectly and breaking the bank for Vidal would seem like a luxury because I'm not sure if we will be playing to their strengths by inhibiting one/both of them and that pairing may be a bit suspect defensively against the bigger teams. If that happens, I can see LVG playing Herrera as a 10 and pairing Vidal with Carrick.
If we don't go for Vidal, Kagawa would be fine as an 8 or 10 in a 3-4-1-2 and an excellent option to have as a squad player. Strootman to complete the midfield jigsaw.
Right now, I'd gladly swap Mata for Vidal.
My concern is Januzaj.
I think he's well-suited for playing on either side of a front 3. At the same time, we don't really have another really good option for the other side of the striker.
I have no idea why people go on and on about him playing as a #10. It doesn't offer him the space to run at & beat players which is his best skill. The main demand of the role is close control in tight spaces and creativity. It seems to waste his talent, meanwhile it displaces a world-class player perfect for the position, in Mata.
I've wondered if he could play as a striker to be honest, essentially doing what Robben did in the World Cup, or what Welbeck did yesterday.
I think he's well-suited for playing on either side of a front 3. At the same time, we don't really have another really good option for the other side of the striker.
I have no idea why people go on and on about him playing as a #10. It doesn't offer him the space to run at & beat players which is his best skill. The main demand of the role is close control in tight spaces and creativity. It seems to waste his talent, meanwhile it displaces a world-class player perfect for the position, in Mata.
I've wondered if he could play as a striker to be honest, essentially doing what Robben did in the World Cup, or what Welbeck did yesterday.
Losing Mata would be too costly because right now he's the pivot of the team playing between midfield and those 2 strikers. We haven't got anyone else of Mata's quality in that role.
Not sure what I make of it, I didn't like it in the world cup.. and I still didn't like it v LA Galaxy. It is a good counter-attack formation, but it feels like you have to use it at full pelt.. its not effortlessly attractive. Against better teams, I can see it becoming too defensive, but we shall see.
I think the loss of creativity wouldn't be as great as what we'd gain from the balance, dynamism and energy a midfield trio of Herrera, Vidal and X (Stootman/Carrick etc.) would bring to the first team but then again I could be talking out of my arse.
So no one has really dominated in recent years with 3 at the back? Kind of a concern of mine. I know LVG said we can change to a 443 easily which is ok I guess. Where does Januzaj fit in this though?
As one of the front 3, like Robben did with RVP and Sneijder at the world cup.
Formation popularity comes and goes all the time. Twenty years ago 4-2-3-1 was not used much, whereas now nearly everyone uses it. If the World Cup is anything to go by three at the back could be gaining popularity again.
Regardless of it's current usage fantastic sides have played a 3-5-2. It's a fine system. And it currently suits our players the best.
Januzaj has been used up front before in the reserves. And while flicking the ball past people when they think they can tackle him has been his biggest tool so far in first team football, Januzaj has others just as good and maybe better that he hasnt shown off yet. My theory is that we were crying out for someone to get down the line and so Januzaj did that to the best of his ability, with the new formation maybe it leaves him to concentrate on other things. In the reserves he has shown he can pass the ball around nicely with short and long passes in the same style as someone like Mata and a central role would likely see more emphasis on that. At the same time Ozil had success for Germany and at Real Madrid by breaking down the channels, starting from a 10 role and pulling wide. It can be done, it can be useful.
I think flexibility is the key and 3-4-1-2 is a good option to have while we're going through a transition.
Interesting that. Especially the point Roy made about Venables playing Neville and Pearce, who were naturally full backs, at centre back because they were comfortable going out to defend in wide areas, leaving the defensive midfielder (Ince) to drop in and make a back four.
If we were to do that, it'd probably be something like:
Rafael - Evans - Shaw
Jones
Thankfully, Smalling, Jones and Evans, in my opinion, are more than comfortable defending in wide areas, as they've all had experience playing at full back. Jones
He's going on and on about the disaster of the fullbacks being free to push forward. I might ask what would happen if the number 10 or the number 6 receives the ball in that situation? It will result in a 3 or 4 vs the 2 center backs in a matter of seconds. That space he's so proudly highlighting will be used for our own sake to create a clear goalscoring chance, the same way Robben created his chances from a counter attacking situation.
This never happens because the basic rule of defending is 1 back for each man and 1 spare, the fullbacks attack in turns
Some decent tactical analysis on what this formation may mean for United...
http://thescore.thejournal.ie/manchester-united-3-4-3-formation-1587359-Jul2014/
http://thescore.thejournal.ie/manchester-united-3-4-3-formation-1587359-Jul2014/
I understand why LVG is doing this; We have 6 better attacking central players than a single proper wide player (RVP, Mata, Rooney, Kagawa, Welbeck, Hernandez) right now. The Dutch played 4-3-3 against weaker teams and 3 at the back against stronger ones. If we finish top 4 this year and can go into next season (and the CL) with the ability to play both, we'll have a much better chance to win big games, and against smaller teams, the talent should take care of itself.
I do think this makes us slightly less likely to win the league, but more likely to finish top 4. It's got lower upside, but it's safer in that the group of players is better suited to it.
However, the basic concern that against any team which plays one up front, we have our wide CB's up against pacey strikers in direct confrontations, is a real one. We'll need at least one CB who is comfortable playing wider and has the quickness to do it. Not many of them around. The alternative is that we sign Rodriguez and Shaw moves to LCB for the season, though that's maybe asking a lot of a very young player. But I don't think our defenders really have the mobility + on the ball ability combination needed for the 2 wide CB roles apart from Jones, who gets lost the easiest and who, it's worth noting, started in the middle against the Galaxy. So, I'll feel better about this if we bring in a proper wide CB.
The other major worry is that it leaves fullbacks open to hit deep crosses, and so against mediocre Prem teams with a decent aerial target up front and fullbacks who can cross, we might have a bit more trouble.
Januzaj will get time like Depay did, coming on to provide width, or he'll continue to develop and force his way into a central 3 position and give us some extra width there.
I figure we'll do this for a year, play 4-3-3 fairly often and then by next summer, it'll be mainly 4 at the back with 3 at the back as a sometimes option.
For the next month, the major questions will be:
1) Obviously, how we look playing 3 at the back. If we get torn apart against proper teams (Roma have some real wingers), maybe he'll re-evaluate.
2) Can Cleverley, or less likely Fletcher, be trusted as Herrera's partner until Carrick returns? Do we need another CM, even if it means a rush signing with Vidal seemingly unlikely? If Cleverley plays as the 6, can Kagawa be the 8, or only Mata's backup?
3) Is Shaw going to play LWB, in which case we need to sign a LCB, or should he move inside and we'll sign Rodriguez or another LWB? Seems unlikely we'd spend 60 million in a summer on left-backs, but it's plausible now. I thought, contrary to everyone here seemingly, that Shaw looked good out wide, he just lacked the openings to attack. He can also be pushed to play more aggressively, I'm sure. Technically, I think he definitely has the skills.
4) Which of Keane, Blackett, Thorpe (and now) Fletcher, will be in the lead for 5th CB (I'm assuming we sign a 4th or move Shaw inside)?
5) Can Valencia overtake Rafael as RWB?
6) Which of Nani, Young and Zaha will be sticking around as the other wing option with Januzaj when we go 4-3-3?
7) The pecking order of Evans, Jones, Smalling and figuring out which one plays centrally.
TLDR: 3 at the back mostly this year, though not against dross playing one up front. We don't win the league but we get top 4 and next year, we can sign another player or two and we mostly go 4 at the back but use 3 at the back against top teams and in the CL often. Signings will thus have to fit both formations. That means a pacey LCB (or LWB if Shaw shifts) and a holding CM to pair with Herrera (the case anyways) this summer.
I do think this makes us slightly less likely to win the league, but more likely to finish top 4. It's got lower upside, but it's safer in that the group of players is better suited to it.
However, the basic concern that against any team which plays one up front, we have our wide CB's up against pacey strikers in direct confrontations, is a real one. We'll need at least one CB who is comfortable playing wider and has the quickness to do it. Not many of them around. The alternative is that we sign Rodriguez and Shaw moves to LCB for the season, though that's maybe asking a lot of a very young player. But I don't think our defenders really have the mobility + on the ball ability combination needed for the 2 wide CB roles apart from Jones, who gets lost the easiest and who, it's worth noting, started in the middle against the Galaxy. So, I'll feel better about this if we bring in a proper wide CB.
The other major worry is that it leaves fullbacks open to hit deep crosses, and so against mediocre Prem teams with a decent aerial target up front and fullbacks who can cross, we might have a bit more trouble.
Januzaj will get time like Depay did, coming on to provide width, or he'll continue to develop and force his way into a central 3 position and give us some extra width there.
I figure we'll do this for a year, play 4-3-3 fairly often and then by next summer, it'll be mainly 4 at the back with 3 at the back as a sometimes option.
For the next month, the major questions will be:
1) Obviously, how we look playing 3 at the back. If we get torn apart against proper teams (Roma have some real wingers), maybe he'll re-evaluate.
2) Can Cleverley, or less likely Fletcher, be trusted as Herrera's partner until Carrick returns? Do we need another CM, even if it means a rush signing with Vidal seemingly unlikely? If Cleverley plays as the 6, can Kagawa be the 8, or only Mata's backup?
3) Is Shaw going to play LWB, in which case we need to sign a LCB, or should he move inside and we'll sign Rodriguez or another LWB? Seems unlikely we'd spend 60 million in a summer on left-backs, but it's plausible now. I thought, contrary to everyone here seemingly, that Shaw looked good out wide, he just lacked the openings to attack. He can also be pushed to play more aggressively, I'm sure. Technically, I think he definitely has the skills.
4) Which of Keane, Blackett, Thorpe (and now) Fletcher, will be in the lead for 5th CB (I'm assuming we sign a 4th or move Shaw inside)?
5) Can Valencia overtake Rafael as RWB?
6) Which of Nani, Young and Zaha will be sticking around as the other wing option with Januzaj when we go 4-3-3?
7) The pecking order of Evans, Jones, Smalling and figuring out which one plays centrally.
TLDR: 3 at the back mostly this year, though not against dross playing one up front. We don't win the league but we get top 4 and next year, we can sign another player or two and we mostly go 4 at the back but use 3 at the back against top teams and in the CL often. Signings will thus have to fit both formations. That means a pacey LCB (or LWB if Shaw shifts) and a holding CM to pair with Herrera (the case anyways) this summer.
I quite like the 3-5-2. It's easy to push one of the front two out two help on the side if needed, and with our players flexibility, most of the time it'll only be one substitution away from becoming a 4-4-2, 4-3-3 or even a 4-2-3-1 if needed.
i.e. if lined up as in 1st half, push Welbeck out left to storm forward and cut in, and sub one CB for right winger. We could even have pushed Valencia up, and pushed Jones/Smalling out to RB, and and we wouldn't even have needed a sub to change tactics.
anyway, it'll be interesting to see how we do with the 3-5-2, we looked like we retained the ball really well in the first half, but then again it's a friendly etc. Probably won't know for sure until the league starts.
i.e. if lined up as in 1st half, push Welbeck out left to storm forward and cut in, and sub one CB for right winger. We could even have pushed Valencia up, and pushed Jones/Smalling out to RB, and and we wouldn't even have needed a sub to change tactics.
anyway, it'll be interesting to see how we do with the 3-5-2, we looked like we retained the ball really well in the first half, but then again it's a friendly etc. Probably won't know for sure until the league starts.
All we need is a solid midfielder partner for Herrera and a couple of CBs and we are ready to go, we have enough players for this formation. I think it's really good(on paper at least) and this formation suits our current players. With total football on top of that we will have an exciting season ahead of us!
The problem here is that there is zero pace up top, even if we feel Mata can play where you have him and not leave us too exposed in midfield, the system worked for the Dutch due to Arjen Robben's electric pace and ability to run at defenders and pull them out of position, neither RvP or Rooney are going to do that.
The Dutch had no pace out wide with Blind and Janmaat or Kuyt whereas we have Shaw and Valencia/Rafael, 2 very fast players that can easily stretch teams. I don't think RVP and Rooney will start at the same time anyway. I think it will always be one of Rooney or RVP and 1 of Januzaj or Welbeck up top.
Jones has average technique, passing and decision making in that position. I would play Carrick and Fletcher before him. I'd play him on the right instead of Smalling.
Here's Stuart Pearce's view on 3-5-2 which I found more insightful: http://www.uefa.com/trainingground/coaches/video/videoid=1605297.html?autoplay=true
In his opinion, the wingbacks are the most important cogs in a 3-5-2.
Vermaelen would suit us perfectly because then we'd have cover for both sides. I would play either Vermaelen/Evans as the Sweeper because the other 2 aren't the brightest when it comes to defending.
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In this system the wingbacks stay very wide, that won't have the same effect that a pacey front man has as part of the 2 forwards. Januzaj as a striker? I dunno about that, using him or Welbeck as one of the front 2 is a huge risk given they are not prolific goal scorers.
I'm not sure we should use the Dutch as a shining example of the system working. They looked solid enough defensively, but were completely reliant on Robben in attack. They looked slow and predictable for long spells. If we played that way last season the zombie football threads would have been out in full force.
I can see our front 3 being rather ineffective without pace. Glad to be proven wrong though.
I really doubt that, I think he's certain to play a front three of Rooney/Mata/Van Persie. That is the most beneficial aspect of this system - it gets our three best players in their best positions.
No system makes Rooney/RVP/Mata suddenly have threatening speed.
I can definitely see Welbeck being used a lot, especially in the big games when we look to play on the break. Or Januzaj as the other option if he impresses in the role
I can definitely see Welbeck being used a lot, especially in the big games when we look to play on the break. Or Januzaj as the other option if he impresses in the role
LvG seems like he wont just put all 3 on for the sake of them being the best players, it's no good if they don't compliment each other, balance is more important and none of them have any pace, I think there's a real chance for Danny to make a mark for himself in the system.
They were seriously lacking a cm just to link attack and defence.
They were a distinctly mediocre team, we could / should make a better fist of it.
Once Januzaj comes back, I think we'll go to a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1, I don't three at the back suits the players we have. Although Galaxy were crap, in the first few minutes of each half we looked a lot more exposed than we did with 4 at the back and a defensive mid. I also don't think 3 at the back will work in the premier league, considering the use of wing play, it will be 2 against one on the full backs a lot of the time, and no one has ever made it work.
Be interesting to see if a fit Carrick becomes a third CB who can play the ball out from the back or if lvg sees him as a cm option
It isn't, in the modern game you need pace to stretch defences and get behind teams.
This only applies if defences play a high enough line to allow you to run in behind, we won't face that in 90% of our games next season
He could play on either side of the striker or as a 10. If anything I think it could bring the best out of him as he would have to do less defensive work.
Not sure why you don't see him as a number 10. I think he's be fantastic there. His vision, intelligence and weight of pass are fantastic. He has all the attributes to play there.
That is exactly how Cruyff did it at Barcelona as well.
It always applies, you need off the ball runners. You won't be able to penetrate with a team full of players who want the ball into feet. You need players who will run of the ball commit men and stretch teams. Pacy players.
Whilst I agree with the sentiment, I think different teams require different personnel. If, for example, we were to go up against City, I'd be more inclined to play Valencia and Januzaj/Young over Kagawa and Mata, simply because we could play the ball in behind for them to run onto it. Against teams where we will dominate possession, I think pace is less of a necessity. If we can dominate possession, all we require is for players to make runs as we have the players capable of picking them out.
Now, I feel this would be less of a problem if we had a striker such as Aguero or someone of that ilk. Incredibly quick, intelligent and a willing runner. I think thats why City have so much success with playing Silva and Nasri and why we failed miserably last season with Mata and Kagawa. Rooney and RVP weren't making the runs we needed to play them in because the team was playing so badly they felt they needed to do things on their own.
Rooney can run at players, Mata can, Janazai, Valencia. Pace is important but it is not the be all and end all, we can succeed without it
Off the ball movement is different, thats more about a quickness of thought, being ahead of the defenders in your head will get you more space than pace will
The problem I see with playing 3 at the back is that we have no real authority there. I noticed a few times the back line just shifted the ball between themselves and passed it back to De Gea. I can't see any real leader in there who has the ability to move forward with the ball. Maybe Jones will grow into that role, but I still see him as too rash and inexperienced to be the one who has the responsibility of marshaling the back line.
Well, for one I've not noticed his suggested extraordinary vision or passing ability (with regards to the #10 position). That's something I've seen in Mata here and at Chelsea, and in Kagawa at Dortmund (only rarely here). I don't see him as that type of player - maybe he'll prove me wrong eventually, but right now I can't see it.
He has an extraordinary ability to beat players and has a decent finish in him. He's got everything in his locker to be an Alexis Sanchez sort of player (or a superior version), a wide forward who cuts in and causes havoc in the box.
I shouldn't fret too much. He's going to make Van Gaal take notice of him eventually and he'll have to find some way to fit him in. He also has a bias for coaching young talent ("because they listen to my methods more closely").
I'm assuming he won't be joining the squad in America? A shame, he didn't get to play much for Belgium either.
If Carrick was fit this wouldn't be an issue.
For me LVG is probably going to deploy Januzaj as a forward more often than not even if he considers his preferred position to be behind the striker. Januzaj could potentially play very well in the position that Welbeck and Young played against LA. It is a role with a lot of freedom and as Robben showed can be the main threat in the team, creating and scoring.
I just get the impression that most of the time other players will occupy the attacking midfield role. Unless Januzaj plays in center midfield, that would be new.
I just get the impression that most of the time other players will occupy the attacking midfield role. Unless Januzaj plays in center midfield, that would be new.