So the 3-5-2

The goal was seemingly conceded due to the central midfield failing to track Ki, so it's hard to blame that on the system.

Going forward, though, it's as feared at home against a team happy drop 10 behind the ball, clog the middle and force our wider center backs to do all the playmaking, mostly over the top. The Venn diagram of defenders who have the mobility to play the position and the skill to hit long-balls over the top and tight, hard, low passes into the congested middle is basically non-existent, I think.

Nothing at all to suggest this formation should be used against teams that play one up front and aren't looking to dictate play and can thus be countered against.
 
Defence has looked ok, it's going to be susceptible on the counter but the more pressing concern is our attack. It shouldn't be this impotent in this setup.
 
Unless we move the ball with any speed we're not going to create enough.

We look the same as against Valencia and the same passing tempo as last season.
 
It forces our centre backs to play long balls down the middle because there isn't anyone on the wings. It's almost the opposite of our crossing problem last year where our wing backs don't influence the game which was apparent after Lingard went off.
 
Never was a huge fan of this style. I always used to think if it was that good, a lot more top teams would be using it. The Dutch looked boring and toothless enough at the WC, Spain match aside. What I dont get is we used this formation to get Mata, Rooney and Van Persie all in their positions, which is fine, but when Van Persie and Welbeck are out, why not go to a back four again?

Too early to call it dead obviously, but if we're serious about this formation, we need proper wingbacks, not Young/Lingard/Januzaj. Also need a more suited player than Hernandez, and we need to play through the middle more.
 
3 in the back are obviously risky and harder to communicate than the 4 in the back. And we need right back as well. We used Lingard and Januzaj as a wingback. And we even used Jones as a right back.
 
It can work but we shouldn't have used it today with Young, lingard and Januzaj. Obviously using it throughout pre-season makes it tricky to revert to a traditional back four but before Herrera went off we were very comfortable with the four.
 
BD94 said:
Never was a huge fan of this style. I always used to think if it was that good, a lot more top teams would be using it. The Dutch looked boring and toothless enough at the WC, Spain match aside. What I dont get is we used this formation to get Mata, Rooney and Van Persie all in their positions, which is fine, but when Van Persie and Welbeck are out, why not go to a back four again?

Too early to call it dead obviously, but if we're serious about this formation, we need proper wingbacks, not Young/Lingard/Januzaj. Also need a more suited player than Hernandez, and we need to play through the middle more.
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The reality is we need an overhaul, we got forwards without pace, and what did we learn? This was not David moyes fault, the Problems run deeper and the real problems lie on the front doorstep of the glazers and ed Woodward
 
Oneunited26 said:
The reality is we need an overhaul, we got forwards without pace, and what did we learn? This was not David moyes fault, the Problems run deeper and the real problems lie on the front doorstep of the glazers and ed Woodward
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That too, and it didnt help that our fastest player, Januzaj, was on the bench. We should always have at least one of him and Welbeck on the pitch imo, otherwise we have no pace or directness and we're too easy to defend against.
 
BD94 said:
That too, and it didnt help that our fastest player, Januzaj, was on the bench. We should always have at least one of him and Welbeck on the pitch imo, otherwise we have no pace or directness and we're too easy to defend against.
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And what makes it worse, I think there are so many problems it does not matter who we buy. I have said this time and time again, we do not really need a natural number 10, it's a luxury position. I would swap mata and kagwa for 2 world class wingers who can run at defenders
 
The system can work fine but as with any system you've got to have the players. We've been playing it in preparation for a Rooney/RVP/Mata front 3 which sounds great but without signings and with the injuries we have, specifically carrick, evans and shaw (prob rafael/valencia as well) we don't have players behind the forwards suited to it.

Jones/Smalling don't pass the ball aprticularly well for defenders nor do they look to push up with the ball enough (Jones did this better tbf 2nd half).
We've got no wingbacks just players filling it who are clearly inexperienced defensively. Currently it's really only their pace which gets them out of trouble.

And this creates a issue whereby the midfielders keep having to come deeper or are much more easily marked as the oppositions forwards don't need to be worried about our defenders on the ball. They can stand off them and help close space for the midfielders, slowing us down or forcing us long. And with the wingbacks pre januzaj coming on not being players who run at others primarily we're stuck with them passing the ball back infield to an already crowded area.

It's fair enough that injuries would hinder you but there's no denying at the least that we lack backup to come in for these injured players and play this system naturally.
 
Oneunited26 said:
And what makes it worse, I think there are so many problems it does not matter who we buy. I have said this time and time again, we do not really need a natural number 10, it's a luxury position. I would swap mata and kagwa for 2 world class wingers who can run at defenders
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It's too late. Me and a few people have been talking about this, Mata was a waste of money for us since we could use the money on wingers or centre mid. And we decided to use it for a world class number 10 role. A position which we don't need.
Either way now is sell Mata or play football around him.
 

De Gea
Jones - Smailling - Blackett/Rojo
Di Maria - William Carvalho - Herrera/kovacic - Shaw/Young
Mata/Kagawa
Rooney/Januzaj - Welbeck/Van Persie
​

We need a specialist winger and number 6 to get the best out of this system. We should be going after both William Carvalho and Rojo.
 
Biggest problem was tracking runners through midfield. We need our 2 midfielders and the number 10 to be defensively alert. If LvG is thinking the same thing, it could explain out pursuit of Di Maria.
 
How is the team supposed to get used to the system if we change it?

He was right to change it though. We needed to change it otherwise we were going nowhere forward.
 
JSMHE said:
It's too late. Me and a few people have been talking about this, Mata was a waste of money for us since we could use the money on wingers or centre mid. And we decided to use it for a world class number 10 role. A position which we don't need.
Either way now is sell Mata or play football around him.
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I had an argument with someone on here who was adamant that I'm deluded to say the number 10 position is a luxury position, our best years came when we never had a number 10. Look at Real Madrid swapped ozil for bale and they looked even better
 
Oneunited26 said:
I had an argument with someone on here who was adamant that I'm deluded to say the number 10 position is a luxury position, our best years came when we never had a number 10. Look at Real Madrid swapped ozil for bale and they looked even better
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Very true. I really hope LVG isn't wedded to this 352 carry on. For me 4 at the back is the only way to go.
 
Oneunited26 said:
I had an argument with someone on here who was adamant that I'm deluded to say the number 10 position is a luxury position, our best years came when we never had a number 10. Look at Real Madrid swapped ozil for bale and they looked even better
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Ozil wasn't swapped for Bale. Isco was bought. Di Maria made way for Bale initially and eventually Di Maria started to play behind the striker forcing Isco out.
 
In Rainbows said:
Ozil wasn't swapped for Bale. Isco was bought. Di Maria made way for Bale initially and eventually Di Maria started to play behind the striker forcing Isco out.
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Yea true but they had rampaging wingers that given them that pace. But I do not think we ever needed a number 10
 
Oneunited26 said:
Yea true but they had rampaging wingers that given them that pace. But I do not think we ever needed a number 10
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Having wingers does not mean you get rid of a #10. I'm not seeing the connection here. A #10 replaces the 2nd striker. Unless of course it's a 352 in which case, they both co exist.
 
In Rainbows said:
Having wingers does not mean you get rid of a #10. I'm not seeing the connection here. A #10 replaces the 2nd striker. Unless of course it's a 352 in which case, they both co exist.
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You can easily play 3 CM players anyway, I just think having wingers is far more important than a number. 10
 
Oneunited26 said:
You can easily play 3 CM players anyway, I just think having wingers is far more important than a number. 10
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A #10 can act as the 3rd cm in a 433, once again eliminating the 2nd striker and keeping the wingers. Wingers have nothing to do with the #10. It's not one or the other and never will be.
 
Was a bit silly persisting with 3-5-2 today, considering the personnel we had at our disposal.
 
In Rainbows said:
Ozil wasn't swapped for Bale. Isco was bought. Di Maria made way for Bale initially and eventually Di Maria started to play behind the striker forcing Isco out.
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Di Maria did not play behind the striker forcing Isco out, he played in a 4-3-3 as an advanced midfielder with Modric (with Alonso holding in the Busquets position). This 4-3-3 turned into a 4-4-2 during games where Di Maria went out wide with Bale and Ronaldo played with Benzema up front. Isco was forced out because the system did not have a true no 10 and he didn't suit the 4-3-3 that Di Maria had made himself a CM in
 
As much as I would like for this formation to work, the bottom line is we have been utter shite defensively. For the past two years for whatever maybe the reason evra having a bad season or losing vida to injury we have always been susceptible in the back. Now with the loss of immense experience, it would take a miracle for us to become strong defensively all off a sudden.
 
Let's not go into panic mode yet. It's going to take time to get used to the system. With shaw at left wing back and Rafael or Valencia at right wing back I'm sure we will look a lot stronger in this system. And if we can add a centre midfielder and a centre back to the squad I would be fairly confident that this system will work.
 
It lasted all of 45 mins today. For something that has been worked on all pre-season, you would think the coaching staff would have more believe and conviction in what they have been coaching.

Very strange decision to change it.
 
352 or 532 is an utter waste of a forward player. So instead of 2 sub-top-class central defenders, we play 3 of them. Total waste of fecking time.
 
manusteve said:
352 or 532 is an utter waste of a forward player. So instead of 2 sub-top-class central defenders, we play 3 of them. Total waste of fecking time.
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I don't think any of the three were at fault for the goals to be fair, Blackett and Jones played well, cant say Smalling did anything wrong

we were unlucky in defence, i think the problem today lay at the foot of the creative players, fletcher could complete a pass, Hererra tried to many holiday wood stuff, Jesse looked good and after he came off we seem'd to lose a bit and anyone forward of that didn't ge the ball as a result
 
United22 said:
Di Maria did not play behind the striker forcing Isco out, he played in a 4-3-3 as an advanced midfielder with Modric (with Alonso holding in the Busquets position). This 4-3-3 turned into a 4-4-2 during games where Di Maria went out wide with Bale and Ronaldo played with Benzema up front. Isco was forced out because the system did not have a true no 10 and he didn't suit the 4-3-3 that Di Maria had made himself a CM in
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I consider that position almost the same position. There's a difference in that he tends to play closer to Ronaldo than the middle, but the idea remains. He advances more than either Modric (most times) or Xabi. Bale did not directly replace Ozil is the point.
 
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