So the 3-5-2

[Hed Zitin]

I have a question regarding the 3-4-1-2.

How do we deal with the high press and the man marking on our three centre backs when the GK attempts to play out from the back?

Great win against the Scousers but was anyone worried that our distribution could be majorly affected by pushing right up, causing the keeper to look for the Wing backs on the diagonal pass, which is a lower percentage ball?

They'll have sort themselves out because any manager worth anything will be targeting them and trying to get them to make mistakes. I expect at least one Toure like howler while we continue to work on this system.

I think a lot of it is down to confidence. I was very impressed by Blackett who showed no fear.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Yep. Alexis Sánchez would've been useful for that. I'd say that's more of a flaw with the squad composition than a flaw with the system though. I'm sure we'll see Januzaj play up front and offer a lot of those qualities though and playing up front in this system could easily get the best out of him. Playing on the right side of a "front two" in this 352 is essentially playing on the right side of a three-man attack, you just have a higher starting position and more freedom/responsibility to roam. Perfect for Januzaj. For me, the system allows our best players to play at one time in their best positions and it minimises the flaws of our weakest players.

• Mata is now in a position where he can score and create at will and he's no longer that (small) defensive liability out wide. Rooney's got a clearly defined role up front which will quite possibly see him have his best ever scoring season and in doing so he would become the all-time top goalscorer for us before he even turns 30. Van Persie's now got plenty of support in central areas and more creativity behind him than he's had since joining the club so providing he stays fit he'll easily get 25+ goals again. It's worth noting that he actually had a better scoring rate in all competitions last season than in his first, he was just injured too often.

• Valencia and Young's defensive contribution has always been a level above your typical winger and they do provide support for the midfield and retain the ball reasonably well, but the problem in the last two seasons' was that was all they were doing and that wasn't enough. As a wingback that is enough. They still of course need to provide some attacking threat but there's now a lot less responsibility on them being our main creators (which often was the case with Valencia no matter how poor he was playing). Their main role is to provide defensive cover, support the midfield in retaining the ball and provide a consistent source of width. That's one of our biggest issues solved.

• Our midfield two was often overrun and overburdened to the extent that they weren't able to get forward often enough to influence the play in the final third but they were also outnumbered by the opposition when on the counter. With another centre back behind them they'll have more licence to get forward and support the attack, safe in the knowledge that there's sufficient cover in the centre when they do. Without a designated defensive midfielder we really need that bit of added assurance at the back because our centre backs were exposed far too easily in the last couple of years and with a young backline you're asking for trouble there.

• Jones, Smalling and Evans are all ready to play consistently in their best positions and flourish and this is the only possible way for that to happen. Yes we have injuries at the back but one of the three replacing one when he gets injured and then being moved back out to right back post-injury or going back to the bench is doing nothing for their development. All three are good enough for us as long-term starters IMO so I'd love to see them firmly establish themselves this season. It also removes any possibility of Smalling/Jones playing anywhere other than centre back which is great news all round. This will be the season Jones really becomes the leader in the defence and gets plaudits from around the country, I reckon. It'll definitely give Evans and Jones the licence to go on marauding runs forward more often too which should see Evans get more recognition as a ball-playing defender as he's found creating something in the opposition third in the highlights. Van Gaal does seem to love his left-footers though and Blackett has shown more composure and better distribution than any of our defenders in pre-season.

Aye aye captain.

 

[Stack]

So, from the keeper to either the DM, WBL and WBR via off the ball movement.

If GK plays to DM (bypassing defensive line) that's a risky central pass to a congested area.

If GK plays to WB, it's a tougher pass but to a less congested area, which may result in lower successful completion rate.

All I'm saying is, if you watch the game against Liverpool, our first half was largely due to their high pressure against the three Cb's. There's no doubt that this kind of high press can be exploited by more direct football, but it certainly did hinder our playing from the back

For every tactic there is a counter.

If players mark spaces then that allows the ball to be played directly to players. If players mark players then the ball can be played to spaces.

Both concepts can be utilised in a single scenario and the key to it all is players understanding and recognising what is happening and players being able to implement the right counter at the right time.

In your scenario I am assuming you mean the players are man marked under high pressure.

If the cb slides across to be closer to the lb then that creates a channel to pass through or into for other players to come and receive.

By choosing the right movements off the ball defined by triggers the players use of when and how to move it enables teams to keep possession. Triggers for a particular passing sequence can come from body language, positioning, 3rd player runs etc. How to move refers to straight line runs, angled runs or curved runs which used at the right time the right way can create spaces for the player or a team mate. Ultimately it comes back to work done on the training pitch and how well different methods are pulled off.

 

[buckooo1978]

So, from the keeper to either the DM, WBL and WBR via off the ball movement.

If GK plays to DM (bypassing defensive line) that's a risky central pass to a congested area.

If GK plays to WB, it's a tougher pass but to a less congested area, which may result in lower successful completion rate.

All I'm saying is, if you watch the game against Liverpool, our first half was largely due to their high pressure against the three Cb's. There's no doubt that this kind of high press can be exploited by more direct football, but it certainly did hinder our playing from the back

You are spot on

The defence and Evans in particular looked nervous and a few shit passes put us in trouble

De Geas distribution was very good but we will need to pass better and for midfield players to show for the ball more

Think Liverpool have played that way many times so they knew how to get at us

Our poor use of the ball at times prompted LVG to criticize the performance - we were much better against Madrid who pressed us less

 

[Hoof the ball]

For every tactic there is a counter.

If players mark spaces then that allows the ball to be played directly to players. If players mark players then the ball can be played to spaces.

Both concepts can be utilised in a single scenario and the key to it all is players understanding and recognising what is happening and players being able to implement the right counter at the right time.

In your scenario I am assuming you mean the players are man marked under high pressure.

If the cb slides across to be closer to the lb then that creates a channel to pass through or into for other players to come and receive.

By choosing the right movements off the ball defined by triggers the players use of when and how to move it enables teams to keep possession. Triggers for a particular passing sequence can come from body language, positioning, 3rd player runs etc. How to move refers to straight line runs, angled runs or curved runs which used at the right time the right way can create spaces for the player or a team mate. Ultimately it comes back to work done on the training pitch and how well different methods are pulled off.

OK, I see, which explains why LVG likes intelligent players and ball players. The combination of natural intelligence and technical capability allows for in-game analysis and subsequent decision making to best carry out intended philosophy of play.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Yep. Alexis Sánchez would've been useful for that. I'd say that's more of a flaw with the squad composition than a flaw with the system though. I'm sure we'll see Januzaj play up front and offer a lot of those qualities though and playing up front in this system could easily get the best out of him. Playing on the right side of a "front two" in this 352 is essentially playing on the right side of a three-man attack, you just have a higher starting position and more freedom/responsibility to roam. Perfect for Januzaj. For me, the system allows our best players to play at one time in their best positions and it minimises the flaws of our weakest players.

• Mata is now in a position where he can score and create at will and he's no longer that (small) defensive liability out wide. Rooney's got a clearly defined role up front which will quite possibly see him have his best ever scoring season and in doing so he would become the all-time top goalscorer for us before he even turns 30. Van Persie's now got plenty of support in central areas and more creativity behind him than he's had since joining the club so providing he stays fit he'll easily get 25+ goals again. It's worth noting that he actually had a better scoring rate in all competitions last season than in his first, he was just injured too often.

• Valencia and Young's defensive contribution has always been a level above your typical winger and they do provide support for the midfield and retain the ball reasonably well, but the problem in the last two seasons' was that was all they were doing and that wasn't enough. As a wingback that is enough. They still of course need to provide some attacking threat but there's now a lot less responsibility on them being our main creators (which often was the case with Valencia no matter how poor he was playing). Their main role is to provide defensive cover, support the midfield in retaining the ball and provide a consistent source of width. That's one of our biggest issues solved.

• Our midfield two was often overrun and overburdened to the extent that they weren't able to get forward often enough to influence the play in the final third but they were also outnumbered by the opposition when on the counter. With another centre back behind them they'll have more licence to get forward and support the attack, safe in the knowledge that there's sufficient cover in the centre when they do. Without a designated defensive midfielder we really need that bit of added assurance at the back because our centre backs were exposed far too easily in the last couple of years and with a young backline you're asking for trouble there.

• Jones, Smalling and Evans are all ready to play consistently in their best positions and flourish and this is the only possible way for that to happen. Yes we have injuries at the back but one of the three replacing one when he gets injured and then being moved back out to right back post-injury or going back to the bench is doing nothing for their development. All three are good enough for us as long-term starters IMO so I'd love to see them firmly establish themselves this season. It also removes any possibility of Smalling/Jones playing anywhere other than centre back which is great news all round. This will be the season Jones really becomes the leader in the defence and gets plaudits from around the country, I reckon. It'll definitely give Evans and Jones the licence to go on marauding runs forward more often too which should see Evans get more recognition as a ball-playing defender as he's found creating something in the opposition third in the highlights. Van Gaal does seem to love his left-footers though and Blackett has shown more composure and better distribution than any of our defenders in pre-season.

Good stuff!

One thing you haven't covered but I'd like to hear your opinion on - what do you think of Shaw at wing back - we know he can defend, but is he good enough going forward?

 

[Gopher Brown]

It completely allows us to play our best players imo. 3-5-2 seems to benefit every single position except for our center back situation.
It allows Rooney and RVP to play up top. Mata or Kagawa to play in the hole. Our wingers are more reliable defensively than creative offensively. Midfield 2 obviously stays the same. We bring in 1 or 2 center backs and it benefits every position imo.

I doubt LVG plans on building the team around this long term, but it's a great immediate solution. Plus he can bring players in to take us back to a more orthodox formation quite easily imo.

Where does Januzaj fit in? We're going to have 3 of our best players competing for that one spot. Shaw is great defensively, but is he offensively minded enough to provide the attacking outlet on the left? Is Young defensive minded enough and is he good enough on the left? The system relies greatly on our first-choice players being completely fit for the whole season.

 

[Brightonian]

Yep. Alexis Sánchez would've been useful for that. I'd say that's more of a flaw with the squad composition than a flaw with the system though. I'm sure we'll see Januzaj play up front and offer a lot of those qualities though and playing up front in this system could easily get the best out of him. Playing on the right side of a "front two" in this 352 is essentially playing on the right side of a three-man attack, you just have a higher starting position and more freedom/responsibility to roam. Perfect for Januzaj. For me, the system allows our best players to play at one time in their best positions and it minimises the flaws of our weakest players.

• Mata is now in a position where he can score and create at will and he's no longer that (small) defensive liability out wide. Rooney's got a clearly defined role up front which will quite possibly see him have his best ever scoring season and in doing so he would become the all-time top goalscorer for us before he even turns 30. Van Persie's now got plenty of support in central areas and more creativity behind him than he's had since joining the club so providing he stays fit he'll easily get 25+ goals again. It's worth noting that he actually had a better scoring rate in all competitions last season than in his first, he was just injured too often.

• Valencia and Young's defensive contribution has always been a level above your typical winger and they do provide support for the midfield and retain the ball reasonably well, but the problem in the last two seasons' was that was all they were doing and that wasn't enough. As a wingback that is enough. They still of course need to provide some attacking threat but there's now a lot less responsibility on them being our main creators (which often was the case with Valencia no matter how poor he was playing). Their main role is to provide defensive cover, support the midfield in retaining the ball and provide a consistent source of width. That's one of our biggest issues solved.

• Our midfield two was often overrun and overburdened to the extent that they weren't able to get forward often enough to influence the play in the final third but they were also outnumbered by the opposition when on the counter. With another centre back behind them they'll have more licence to get forward and support the attack, safe in the knowledge that there's sufficient cover in the centre when they do. Without a designated defensive midfielder we really need that bit of added assurance at the back because our centre backs were exposed far too easily in the last couple of years and with a young backline you're asking for trouble there.

• Jones, Smalling and Evans are all ready to play consistently in their best positions and flourish and this is the only possible way for that to happen. Yes we have injuries at the back but one of the three replacing one when he gets injured and then being moved back out to right back post-injury or going back to the bench is doing nothing for their development. All three are good enough for us as long-term starters IMO so I'd love to see them firmly establish themselves this season. It also removes any possibility of Smalling/Jones playing anywhere other than centre back which is great news all round. This will be the season Jones really becomes the leader in the defence and gets plaudits from around the country, I reckon. It'll definitely give Evans and Jones the licence to go on marauding runs forward more often too which should see Evans get more recognition as a ball-playing defender as he's found creating something in the opposition third in the highlights. Van Gaal does seem to love his left-footers though and Blackett has shown more composure and better distribution than any of our defenders in pre-season.

Excellent post. I wasn't a fan of us playing this formation in theory, but there's no denying that given the current shape of our squad, it's very well suited to us.

Now that there are signs that the players are getting to grips with the wingback position, which didn't happen immediately, I really only have the one reservation about this formation left. That being the lack of a clear starting position for Januzaj, who I see as just as important an asset for us to nurture as Rooney, Van Persie or Mata. But, when the player is top class and the coach experienced, these things work themselves out.

Look at Di Maria last season - everyone said Bale's arrival would push him firmly onto the bench. But his performances demanded that he start, and so Ancelotti effectively created a position for him. I see the same thing happening with Januzaj once Van Gaal sees his astronomical potential. I can't say what that solution might be - I'm not a world-class European manager! Maybe he'll sacrifice one wingback to give Januzaj an asymmetrical winger position. Maybe he'll decide that Rooney and RVP need to compete for one spot because Januzaj/Welbeck offer the movement and unpredictability necessary to make the other, more traditional striker effective. Who knows? I'm confident in Van Gaal's ability to make it work.

 

[Stack]

Where does Januzaj fit in? We're going to have 3 of our best players competing for that one spot. Shaw is great defensively, but is he offensively minded enough to provide the attacking outlet on the left? Is Young defensive minded enough and is he good enough on the left? The system relies greatly on our first-choice players being completely fit for the whole season.

I think the key thing is that the system is likely to have variations. For example because of the term wing backs most people will be expecting the "wing backs" to be the players helping to provide cover to the back three defensively. However depending on the opposition or factors in the game it may be that one of the cm's will drop in to the defensive line to provide cover during some attacks. So with respect to the system relying greatly on 1st choice players being fit for the whole season I think it will be more a case of the squad completely understanding the various adjustments needed during every game to handle differing situations. Just because a system is illustrated by the numbers 3-5-2 on a page doesnt mean that its rigidly held to how that visually appears and so players have to be able to play outside of their perceived roles or abilities during different situations that appear. I expect LVG to have adaptable methods for dealing with the varied situations that the visual 3-5-2 representation doesnt explain fully.

 

[Mister Ed]

Excellent post. I wasn't a fan of us playing this formation in theory, but there's no denying that given the current shape of our squad, it's very well suited to us.

Now that there are signs that the players are getting to grips with the wingback position, which didn't happen immediately, I really only have the one reservation about this formation left. That being the lack of a clear starting position for Januzaj, who I see as just as important an asset for us to nurture as Rooney, Van Persie or Mata. But, when the player is top class and the coach experienced, these things work themselves out.

Look at Di Maria last season - everyone said Bale's arrival would push him firmly onto the bench. But his performances demanded that he start, and so Ancelotti effectively created a position for him. I see the same thing happening with Januzaj once Van Gaal sees his astronomical potential. I can't say what that solution might be - I'm not a world-class European manager! Maybe he'll sacrifice one wingback to give Januzaj an asymmetrical winger position. Maybe he'll decide that Rooney and RVP need to compete for one spot because Januzaj/Welbeck offer the movement and unpredictability necessary to make the other, more traditional striker effective. Who knows? I'm confident in Van Gaal's ability to make it work.

That is true apart from the fact we only have like 3 decent centrebacks.

 

[Brightonian]

That is true apart from the fact we only have like 3 decent centrebacks.

And some very promising reserves as back-up. You can scoff, but over the course of the tour Blackett has done as well as any of the senior trio. Keane, struggling with Bale aside (and who can really blame him for that - any of the senior lads probably would have too, but he wasn't in their zone) has also been very impressive. And we didn't even bring Thorpe, who is probably the highest-rated of the three for most on here.

I have to agree with Brwned's point that this both allows us to start all three as regulars - finally giving them their long-overdue chance to actually be starting CBs - and relieves the pressure of that role by spreading the responsibility between three (which I think is the main reason pretty much every CB we took on tour has been very impressive overall, and our defence pretty miserly).

Ultimately, if we are badly affected by injuries and LVG doesn't want to play too many of the kids, he can always shift back to 433 for the duration of the injury crisis. As he said, these players already know how to play that formation.

 

[bm_5]

So, from the keeper to either the DM, WBL and WBR via off the ball movement.

If GK plays to DM (bypassing defensive line) that's a risky central pass to a congested area.

If GK plays to WB, it's a tougher pass but to a less congested area, which may result in lower successful completion rate.

All I'm saying is, if you watch the game against Liverpool, our first half was largely due to their high pressure against the three Cb's. There's no doubt that this kind of high press can be exploited by more direct football, but it certainly did hinder our playing from the back

No team other than Bayern Munich is going to press like Liverpool did for the entire game. On those occasions that they do, you still have plenty of options, in fact more than you did before: you have three CB's, the two wingbacks and two CM's that generally provide support in possession. Herrera is also a very skilled player, so he can break through the pressure and make the right pass almost every time, like he showed in these 3-4 games (especially against Roma). Mata and Rooney also provide solid support and with RVP, Wellbeck or Chicharito you can punish the other team for coming too far forward and leaving open space on the back of their defence.

 

[NoPace]

Blackett looking repeatedly lost against Destro scared me.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I have a question regarding the 3-4-1-2.

How do we deal with the high press and the man marking on our three centre backs when the GK attempts to play out from the back?

Great win against the Scousers but was anyone worried that our distribution could be majorly affected by pushing right up, causing the keeper to look for the Wing backs on the diagonal pass, which is a lower percentage ball?

This isnt really a question that needs to be answered specifically for the 352/3412. For any formation you put out there, teams can push high up and put a man on every defender. It's very hard to deal with something like that and even a team like Barcelona were troubled by it the odd time. At the same time it's a very risky maneuver because you have to make the early pressure count because it's an exhausting tactic where after the first 20 minutes you're at a disadvantage.

With regards to planning to dealing with it, I'm no expert on this, but I've often read that what teams do is to split the centre halves wider, and have the central midfielders drop deep into the space, creating additional numbers deep to receive the ball.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I have a question regarding the 3-4-1-2.

How do we deal with the high press and the man marking on our three centre backs when the GK attempts to play out from the back?

Great win against the Scousers but was anyone worried that our distribution could be majorly affected by pushing right up, causing the keeper to look for the Wing backs on the diagonal pass, which is a lower percentage ball?

They will never mark all three CBs because that will leave them with a 5vs3 disadvantage in the midfield and give us the opportunity for a safe pass in the middle lines. And of course our first pass is never towards the DM/CM, never. These are the easiest balls to steal. Another thing is that you don't want your wing backs to drop very deep, you have the ball and you must do anything to maintain your attacking shape.

First let's see what you can do when you're not pressed in the 3-5-2. Traditionally the LCB and the RCB split to the edge of the box, the central CB stays in a central area in the box and the DM holds and looks for opportunities to get on the ball (after the first pass). These four create a diamond shape formation with its edges placed at the edge of the box. The two wing backs push towards the half way line and the other two CMs' job is to take markers away from our third of the pitch. By doing all that we can isolate the opposition strikers and almost nullify their threat. After all we will have a 5vs3 numerical advantage in our third. When the opposition strikers have dropped off the LCB/RCB can pick the ball and pass it to the WB or the midfielders. The CB drops deep in a sweeper role to provide cover.

When facing teams that press high you change the positioning a bit but not the tactic or the philosophy of the 3-5-2. The LCB and the RCB drop deeper to the sides of the box (not the edge). The CB stays central and ahead of them and the diamond shape formation is formed not with the addition of the holding midfielder but the goal keeper. If the keeper passes the ball to the LCB or the RCB and the strikers press (which they will), then if you can't play the ball forward you must always bounce it back to the keeper. Being placed at the bottom of the diamond, he is the player who has all options available and can watch all the off the ball movement.

Let's say it goes like this: De Gea passes to Evans on the side of the box. Sterling presses, so Evans plays it safe back to De Gea. It's safe because the CB (Smalling) marks Sturridge and he protects the channel. Then De Gea has three options: the short pass to the RCB. As i said earlier it's risky to have all three wingers press wide in 1vs1 situations because they leave huge gaps in the midfield and they risk getting isolated. Most teams apply high pressing with traps that create 2vs1 situations. In the 3-5-2 this almost certainly gives you the opportunity to have a "free" defender.

But let's say that the RCB also has to deal with pressing. The high pressing of all three attacking players in the box requires off the ball movement from the opposition midfielders. They have to move up to provide options and keep their lines connected. This leaves our keeper with two more passing options, the wing back or a CM.

That's a general rule, football is a funny game. You can't always predict what the opposition strikers will do so the players have to think on their feet in some occasions. Sometimes the route to play a switch acrosd your back line might be closed off. But if they close off the route to the RCB/LCB, this means there has to be a gap in the middle large enough to play a pass. This is where the extra defender in the 3-5-2 becomes so important and vital and that is why LvG wants a CB who is good on the ball.

 

[JSMHE]

The match against Valencia probably will tell us, is LVG really going to settle with 352 or back to his favour 433. With Januzaj is joining in, This should be interesting.

 

[Rob Bowman]

Yep. Alexis Sánchez would've been useful for that. I'd say that's more of a flaw with the squad composition than a flaw with the system though. I'm sure we'll see Januzaj play up front and offer a lot of those qualities though and playing up front in this system could easily get the best out of him. Playing on the right side of a "front two" in this 352 is essentially playing on the right side of a three-man attack, you just have a higher starting position and more freedom/responsibility to roam. Perfect for Januzaj. For me, the system allows our best players to play at one time in their best positions and it minimises the flaws of our weakest players.

• Mata is now in a position where he can score and create at will and he's no longer that (small) defensive liability out wide. Rooney's got a clearly defined role up front which will quite possibly see him have his best ever scoring season and in doing so he would become the all-time top goalscorer for us before he even turns 30. Van Persie's now got plenty of support in central areas and more creativity behind him than he's had since joining the club so providing he stays fit he'll easily get 25+ goals again. It's worth noting that he actually had a better scoring rate in all competitions last season than in his first, he was just injured too often.

• Valencia and Young's defensive contribution has always been a level above your typical winger and they do provide support for the midfield and retain the ball reasonably well, but the problem in the last two seasons' was that was all they were doing and that wasn't enough. As a wingback that is enough. They still of course need to provide some attacking threat but there's now a lot less responsibility on them being our main creators (which often was the case with Valencia no matter how poor he was playing). Their main role is to provide defensive cover, support the midfield in retaining the ball and provide a consistent source of width. That's one of our biggest issues solved.

• Our midfield two was often overrun and overburdened to the extent that they weren't able to get forward often enough to influence the play in the final third but they were also outnumbered by the opposition when on the counter. With another centre back behind them they'll have more licence to get forward and support the attack, safe in the knowledge that there's sufficient cover in the centre when they do. Without a designated defensive midfielder we really need that bit of added assurance at the back because our centre backs were exposed far too easily in the last couple of years and with a young backline you're asking for trouble there.

• Jones, Smalling and Evans are all ready to play consistently in their best positions and flourish and this is the only possible way for that to happen. Yes we have injuries at the back but one of the three replacing one when he gets injured and then being moved back out to right back post-injury or going back to the bench is doing nothing for their development. All three are good enough for us as long-term starters IMO so I'd love to see them firmly establish themselves this season. It also removes any possibility of Smalling/Jones playing anywhere other than centre back which is great news all round. This will be the season Jones really becomes the leader in the defence and gets plaudits from around the country, I reckon. It'll definitely give Evans and Jones the licence to go on marauding runs forward more often too which should see Evans get more recognition as a ball-playing defender as he's found creating something in the opposition third in the highlights. Van Gaal does seem to love his left-footers though and Blackett has shown more composure and better distribution than any of our defenders in pre-season.

As others have stated... excellent post. Thank you !!

I completely agree with us getting the best out of our players for the forwards (Rooney, RvP, Januzaj and even Welbeck). They should feast on this. I also agree Mata should just shine playing in the hole with the talent in front of him and Kagawa is an able deputy. Lastly I agree our wingbacks are sorted with Valencia and Young and this still leaves Shaw and Rafael challenging. So far so good.

They two areas i think we need just one more player are CM and CB. I am not convinced Fletcher will be able to play well enough against the top clubs. Nor do i think Cleverly is good enough and same for Fellini (although I will be very curious if LVG can get something out of him that is beyond what most of us envision). I know Carrick will be back but I want one more top flite CM to feel real comfortable here.

The other area I have concerns is the back line, in particular Smalling. He might make the cut, but I am not sure, but even if he does an injury could be disastrous. As such I would love one exp CB to steady the ship when things are going sideways and also provide a bit more depth. I trust Tyler Blackett to fill in occasionally (might be just a bit you to take the responsibility full time) but after that I would like to see at least one more top shelf central defender at the club.

I most certainly might be wrong but look forward to others thoughts.

 

[Brwned]

Good stuff!

One thing you haven't covered but I'd like to hear your opinion on - what do you think of Shaw at wing back - we know he can defend, but is he good enough going forward?

He doesn't look like a wingback to me but who knows, maybe it'll add another string to his bow and have a huge impact on his long-term development. I see him as being more suited to playing as the left-sided centre back in a trio in all honesty. I suppose I see him as more of a Maldini than an Evra but saying that, Maldini did play wingback himself despite clearly being the archetypal defensive fullback. Shaw does have very polished technique and has a bit of pace about him so he has the raw tools to play the role I think, but he's clearly got the nature of a proper fullback. Very alert defensively and very strong 1v1. Definitely looks well suited to stepping into Ashley Cole's vacant role at left back.

As others have stated... excellent post. Thank you !!

I completely agree with us getting the best out of our players for the forwards (Rooney, RvP, Januzaj and even Welbeck). They should feast on this. I also agree Mata should just shine playing in the hole with the talent in front of him and Kagawa is an able deputy. Lastly I agree our wingbacks are sorted with Valencia and Young and this still leaves Shaw and Rafael challenging. So far so good.

They two areas i think we need just one more player are CM and CB. I am not convinced Fletcher will be able to play well enough against the top clubs. Nor do i think Cleverly is good enough and same for Fellini (although I will be very curious if LVG can get something out of him that is beyond what most of us envision). I know Carrick will be back but I want one more top flite CM to feel real comfortable here.

The other area I have concerns is the back line, in particular Smalling. He might make the cut, but I am not sure, but even if he does an injury could be disastrous. As such I would love one exp CB to steady the ship when things are going sideways and also provide a bit more depth. I trust Tyler Blackett to fill in occasionally (might be just a bit you to take the responsibility full time) but after that I would like to see at least one more top shelf central defender at the club.

I most certainly might be wrong but look forward to others thoughts.

Agreed on all points. I don't think we need a really top class, best in the world type CM like many do - although I understand it after the years of neglect! - but I still have concerns about Fletcher and realistically replacing Fellaini now would be the best thing for everyone. Kagawa will play a good few games in centre mid but I've not seen much to suggest he's really capable of performing well enough in that role and with Anderson/Giggs gone we do need another body in there.

If Van Gaal thinks some of the young ones are good enough for that then I'm not too fussed though. The likes of Pearson/Rothwell/Pereira get plenty of praise and I'd love to see us promote a really technical young CM. Replacing Scholesy with another youth player would make me very happy. I'm pretty sure we'll bring in Strootman by next summer though.

We're clearly short at centre back though and we 100% need to bring in some experience there. It'd be utterly insane to replace Rio & Vidic with Keane/Blackett/Thorpe, particularly given the fact our CBs are relatively injury-prone.

 

[Dante]

I think we're going to be sticking with a 3-5-2 for at least two or three seasons.

The reason that LvG has implemented this system is so that he can get Rooney, Mata and RvP all in the team at once. Unless one of them is sold in the near future, there's no way we'll reverting to a 4-3-3. The fact that Januzaj, Wilson and Welbeck are all knocking on the door makes it even more unlikely.

 

[Rob Bowman]

Agreed on all points. I don't think we need a really top class, best in the world type CM like many do - although I understand it after the years of neglect! - but I still have concerns about Fletcher and realistically replacing Fellaini now would be the best thing for everyone. Kagawa will play a good few games in centre mid but I've not seen much to suggest he's really capable of performing well enough in that role and with Anderson/Giggs gone we do need another body in there.

If Van Gaal thinks some of the young ones are good enough for that then I'm not too fussed though. The likes of Pearson/Rothwell/Pereira get plenty of praise and I'd love to see us promote a really technical young CM. Replacing Scholesy with another youth player would make me very happy. I'm pretty sure we'll bring in Strootman by next summer though.

We're clearly short at centre back though and we 100% need to bring in some experience there. It'd be utterly insane to replace Rio & Vidic with Keane/Blackett/Thorpe, particularly given the fact our CBs are relatively injury-prone.

Okay, personally I think some real class CM can really drive this system and help all over the pitch. We could settle for a decent CM but if we want CL and victories in CL I think we need a pretty close to world class CM. I mean if you look at the best teams in CL, Real, Barca, or Bayern I do not think it coincidence that they all have multiple world class CM. I mean look at what Chelsea picked up this year despite needing on a striker... Fabergas. Him in front of Matic.

As for CB, yeah we need a quality exp player.

Just those two things and stay decently healthy and we should be top 4 and looking at CL ball next year.

 

[Blue always red]

Okay, personally I think some real class CM can really drive this system and help all over the pitch. We could settle for a decent CM but if we want CL and victories in CL I think we need a pretty close to world class CM. I mean if you look at the best teams in CL, Real, Barca, or Bayern I do not think it coincidence that they all have multiple world class CM. I mean look at what Chelsea picked up this year despite needing on a striker... Fabergas. Him in front of Matic.

As for CB, yeah we need a quality exp player.

Just those two things and stay decently healthy and we should be top 4 and looking at CL ball next year.

Yes true, but if you look at every one of those midfields there is balance in there. Matic the DM with Fabregas the marauding AM. At Madrid there is Alonso and Modric, etc. We now have Herrera who can support both attacking and defensive plays but the question is, who do we partner him with because I think two box to box players in Vidal and Herrera would not work.

Is there anybody available who could partner Herrera? Somebody of Scholes/Alonso/Xavi ilk who can spread and dictate our play and tempo or somebody who is solid as a rock defensively allowing Herrera to move more freely. I've noticed after his Galaxy performance he didn't get involved as much in the attack, staying deeper.

 

[Rob Bowman]

Yes true, but if you look at every one of those midfields there is balance in there. Matic the DM with Fabregas the marauding AM. At Madrid there is Alonso and Modric, etc. We now have Herrera who can support both attacking and defensive plays but the question is, who do we partner him with because I think two box to box players in Vidal and Herrera would not work.

Is there anybody available who could partner Herrera? Somebody of Scholes/Alonso/Xavi ilk who can spread and dictate our play and tempo or somebody who is solid as a rock defensively allowing Herrera to move more freely. I've noticed after his Galaxy performance he didn't get involved as much in the attack, staying deeper.

/w... carrick...



Seriously I think Carrick compares fairly well with Matic and Alonso. He will sit deep, break up counters, cycle the ball, and has a good range of passing. Certainly he needs to play better than last year, but if he finds his form again I think he will thrive under LVG.

That all said I still want another top CM .

 

[Juan't Mata]

Yes true, but if you look at every one of those midfields there is balance in there. Matic the DM with Fabregas the marauding AM. At Madrid there is Alonso and Modric, etc. We now have Herrera who can support both attacking and defensive plays but the question is, who do we partner him with because I think two box to box players in Vidal and Herrera would not work.

Is there anybody available who could partner Herrera? Somebody of Scholes/Alonso/Xavi ilk who can spread and dictate our play and tempo or somebody who is solid as a rock defensively allowing Herrera to move more freely. I've noticed after his Galaxy performance he didn't get involved as much in the attack, staying deeper.

Daley Blind could be that man.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Daley Blind could be that man.

You realize the post said a player of the Scholes/Alonso/Xavi ilk?

 

[Juan't Mata]

You realize the post said a player of the Scholes/Alonso/Xavi ilk?

I was responding to the "or who is rock solid defensively allowing Herrera to move more freely" bit.

 

[DFreshKing]

The other formation that fits our squad and transitions from 352 easily is 4222. Simple sub of a cb for either Kagawa or Januzaj.

Not sure if it's a formation LVG likes or would use but it gives us decent plan b in a tight game and helps utilise a squad strength in the no. 10 role.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

The other formation that fits our squad and transitions from 352 easily is 4222. Simple sub of a cb for either Kagawa or Januzaj.

Not sure if it's a formation LVG likes or would use but it gives us decent plan b in a tight game and helps utilise a squad strength in the no. 10 role.

If you think of a 4-2-2-2 ala City last season, i don't believe it can work for us. Imo the whole point of switching to 3-5-2 is to cover the spaces in the midfield areas better and without losing our cohesion.

Pellegrini used it because he had Toure and Fernandinho, two players who can cover with vertical and diagonal off the ball movement the whole of the pitch and be effective in the attacking third as well as in the midfield and at the back. In fact it suited Pellegrini fine because he likes two play with two strikers.

None of our current midfielders can do that. Carrick is perfect playing deeper and controlling the tempo, Fletcher the same, Herrera is doing an "ok" job defensively, Cleverley offers very little in the attacking third and Mata-Kagawa "suffocate" whenever they are asked to drop deeper to influence our game.

The two strikers give our #10 the opportunity to play the role that suits them best and the third CB gives Carrick and Herrera safety behind their backs. The 3-5-2 reduces the spaces the aforementioned players have to operate into, hides their weaknesses and provides team cohesion.

It's not all about the lack of top wingers. Of course if players like Vidal and Di Maria arrive at OT things will certainly change regarding the tactics.

 

[DFreshKing]

The other formation that fits our squad and transitions from 352 easily is 4222. Simple sub of a cb for either Kagawa or Januzaj.

Not sure if it's a formation LVG likes or would use but it gives us decent plan b in a tight game and helps utilise a squad strength in the no. 10 role.

If you think of a 4-2-2-2 ala City last season, i don't believe it can work for us. Imo the whole point of switching to 3-5-2 is to cover the spaces in the midfield areas better and without losing our cohesion.

Pellegrini used it because he had Toure and Fernandinho, two players who can cover with vertical and diagonal off the ball movement the whole of the pitch and be effective in the attacking third as well as in the midfield and at the back. In fact it suited Pellegrini fine because he likes two play with two strikers.

None of our current midfielders can do that. Carrick is perfect playing deeper and controlling the tempo, Fletcher the same, Herrera is doing an "ok" job defensively, Cleverley offers very little in the attacking third and Mata-Kagawa "suffocate" whenever they are asked to drop deeper to influence our game.

The two strikers give our #10 the opportunity to play the role that suits them best and the third CB gives Carrick and Herrera safety behind their backs. The 3-5-2 reduces the spaces the aforementioned players have to operate into, hides their weaknesses and provides team cohesion.

It's not all about the lack of top wingers. Of course if players like Vidal and Di Maria arrive at OT things will certainly change regarding the tactics.

Decent analysis, my thinking was definately requiring a Vidal or similar complete midfielder to work well. I am assuming we need another cm but who knows,

 

[Isotope]

I think that if we get a new good CB, LvG will move Jones to DM. He had done quite a good job on few times he was playing there.

 

[Sammyjunn]

I think that if we get a new good CB, LvG will move Jones to DM. He had done quite a good job on few times he was playing there.

Maybe his brainfarts wont end up in penalties when he plays there.

 

[Isotope]

Maybe his brainfarts wont end up in penalties when he plays there.

Yep. That's another reason. Also if you notice, as a CB, he tends to do 'risky' passes that a midfielder would do. Seems like he likes to think that he should do more in terms of influencing the play. Also he's quite like going forward. Just play him as DM then.

 

[Rowem]

I think that if we get a new good CB, LvG will move Jones to DM. He had done quite a good job on few times he was playing there.

When we've played Jones at DM in the past he's often not made himself an option for a short pass from the defenders - leaving that for Carrick to do - he would have to do so as the DM in the 352. I would have doubts about his ability receiving the ball under pressure facing his own goal. It's an option though, he could surprise me.

 

[NoPace]

Jones at DM is only for specific job-doing. He's not a good enough overall footballer to play there regularly.

 

[Isotope]

When we've played Jones at DM in the past he's often not made himself an option for a short pass from the defenders - leaving that for Carrick to do - he would have to do so as the DM in the 352. I would have doubts about his ability receiving the ball under pressure facing his own goal. It's an option though, he could surprise me.

Masch and dejong are pretty limited players, but I wouldn't say no to any of them at United now. Both are not really the players that would be comfortable on the ball under pressure. Although not even once Jones was tried in CM during the tour, so maybe it's not an option for LvG.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I think that if we get a new good CB, LvG will move Jones to DM. He had done quite a good job on few times he was playing there.

Doubt it. Jones has spoken of his optimism with the 3-5-2 as it allows him to play where he wants as centre-back.

 

[Offside]

It's looking good. We don't look as open as we did. Playing it around the back we look assured, although negative at times it is still necessary in order to retain possession.

 

[Dante]

Have our rcb and lcb always played as wide as they did yesterday? Maybe it's been going on all preseason and I haven't noticed, but Jones and Blackett looked almost like they were hugging the touchline.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Anyone else worried that our version of the 352 has basically exactly mirrored the version that Holland used in the WC?

Starts off looking brilliant - against abject opposition - but gets more and more sterile and boring to watch with each game the team plays, as it comes up against sterner tests. At the end of the day, if you choose to play with an extra defender that's one less attacking player to hurt the opposition. With teams like Valencia playing one striker it makes the redundancy of the extra CB even more obvious. Combine this with the lack of width you get from only having two players in wide areas and it all gets a bit congested and boring to watch. I really hope Van Gaal goes back to his favoured 433 soon enough. Obviously, I also hope he gets the players he needs to do this.

 

[Bape]

Anyone else worried that our version of the 352 has basically exactly mirrored the version that Holland used in the WC?

Starts off looking brilliant - against abject opposition - but gets more and more sterile and boring to watch with each game the team plays, as it comes up against sterner tests. At the end of the day, if you choose to play with an extra defender that's one less attacking player to hurt the opposition. With teams like Valencia playing one striker it makes the redundancy of the extra CB even more obvious. Combine this with the lack of width you get from only having two players in wide areas and it all gets a bit congested and boring to watch. I really hope Van Gaal goes back to his favoured 433 soon enough. Obviously, I also hope he gets the players he needs to do this.

It's the only way to play RVP, Rooney and Mata together all in their best positions. Given they are our three best attacking players, I wouldn't exactly say it is sacrificing our attacking option. The only issue I have is Januzaj might find it harder to be a regular starter.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's the only way to play RVP, Rooney and Mata together all in their best positions. Given they are our three best attacking players, I wouldn't exactly say it is sacrificing our attacking option. The only issue I have is Januzaj might find it harder to be a regular starter.

Well if Mata keeps playing like he did last night, it definitely isn't worth playing with one less attacking player to accomodate him.