I don't think it works against teams who put 10 men behind the ball and play on the break. You need width to break down those sort of teams when the middle gets too congested; wingers and full backs on the overlap.
So the 3-5-2
- Thread starter Ole's_toe_poke
- Start date
Scholes has been very critical of the system by stating that the pace in the system is slow and there is a lack of thrust. Personally, I would persevere with it, but we need more attacking intent from our wing backs and midfield.
I think we can play it, but I really think we need the directness of Luke Shaw and Valencia/Rafael on the wings. It's our only chance of getting behind the defence unless Welbeck is one of the strikers.
We missed a trick today as when van Persie and Welbeck are not fit, what is the reason to still play 3412? The point of the system is to get our best three players on the pitch (or Welbeck for more pace and defence stretching if one of them is out). Easy to say in hindsight, but we could have played with:
That was only dropping Hernandez from today's line-up, which a lot of people were indeed calling for in this system. It's also not starting any of the supposedly unfit players (Januzaj, Fellaini, Nani) even though I do think the two wider players could have started in this system and been subbed off instead if they tired.
I do think we should persevere with 3412, but the reason LvG is playing it is to get our best players on the pitch.. Today, to do that he didn't need to play 3412. I can understand why he did (continuity, everyone getting used to the system in the Premier League etc) but he changed it at half time anyway, so maybe he should have thought about that before the game - especially with the pace Swansea had on the flanks.
We missed a trick today as when van Persie and Welbeck are not fit, what is the reason to still play 3412? The point of the system is to get our best three players on the pitch (or Welbeck for more pace and defence stretching if one of them is out). Easy to say in hindsight, but we could have played with:
de Gea
Jones Smalling Blackett James
Fletcher Herrera
Lingard Mata Young
Rooney
Jones Smalling Blackett James
Fletcher Herrera
Lingard Mata Young
Rooney
That was only dropping Hernandez from today's line-up, which a lot of people were indeed calling for in this system. It's also not starting any of the supposedly unfit players (Januzaj, Fellaini, Nani) even though I do think the two wider players could have started in this system and been subbed off instead if they tired.
I do think we should persevere with 3412, but the reason LvG is playing it is to get our best players on the pitch.. Today, to do that he didn't need to play 3412. I can understand why he did (continuity, everyone getting used to the system in the Premier League etc) but he changed it at half time anyway, so maybe he should have thought about that before the game - especially with the pace Swansea had on the flanks.
Hard to make a fair assessment after just one game, but it didn't look to promising today.
These are players that have been drilled in 442 for years, such a radical change will surely make some players uncomfortable.
Besides, it is very dependent on our CM's being much more involved than today. Herrera looked ok, but Fletcher was abysmal.
These are players that have been drilled in 442 for years, such a radical change will surely make some players uncomfortable.
Besides, it is very dependent on our CM's being much more involved than today. Herrera looked ok, but Fletcher was abysmal.
When you play 5-3-2 (there's no such formation like 3-5-2, 3 defenders? What's it? 1950s?) you have to play with 5 defenders, 3 centre and 2 full (wing) backs to be precise. Not with 3 centre and two wingers in place of wing backs. van Gaal made typical Guardiola error.
In all fairness, LvG knows a tad more than you do.
Its a bollocks formation and there is a reason it is never played in this country, English players are too stupid to adapt to it. All this to accommodate Mata is not worth it. Why the feck we are playing this without RVP is beyond me, as it is only needed when he, Rooney and Mata are all fit.
I'm not criticising three defenders just because of today. Regardless of how each may play in any particular match, we do not have a single top quality central defender. I would be surprised if anyone disputed that.
Surely you would play Januzaj and not lingard.
I would have stuck with 3-5-2 personally but played Januzaj instead of Hernandez
He's right it's too easy to defend against, i think the only reason it worked well for holland in the World Cup was because of robben and even then they often ended up switching to 4-3-3 when they wanted to attack teams. I hope we ditch this formation for the next game and the rest of the season.
Why are we playing this formation, remind me again ? Because we don't have quality in defence and wide areas ? Well isn't it why we have transfer windows ? LvG and Woodward need to pull the finger out and do the necessary .
Once Carrick, Evans and Shaw are back, this system is definitely getting binned.
I dont mind the formation. What i dont want to see again is the long ball up top to fellaini in desperate times
fair enough, I thought you were putting it on them, but yeah obviously we could do with someone with more experience and class there to direct things.
saying that, i think evans would make a lot of difference were he fit
Not a fan of this system, but it can work if the defenders decide to use the midfield as well. They stroked the ball very well at the back, but then instead of looking for someone in midfield, they decide to continuously hit the long ball trying to get a striker to run behind the defense. It didn't help that Mata barely had a pulse out there today apart from the dead ball situations.
It's still too early to write the system off. King Louis already said that it would take at least a couple of months before the players adjust to this system. Of course when LVG gets the players he wants he's bound to change it into a 4-3-3 or 4-3-1-2.
I want us to sign Rojo and Di Maria play like this:
--------------DDG--------------
Rafael----Jones---Rojo-----Shaw
------------Carrick----------
----Herrera-----------Di Maria--
--------------Mata------------
------Rooney--------RVP--------
B-squad
-----------Lindegaard----------
Valencia---Smalling--Evans--Young
-------------Fletcher------------
-----Cleverley-------Fellaini------
-------------Kagawa------------
------Januzaj--------Welbeck
Reserves: Blacket, Lingard and Johnstone
Out: Nani, Hernandez, Zaha, Anderson
--------------DDG--------------
Rafael----Jones---Rojo-----Shaw
------------Carrick----------
----Herrera-----------Di Maria--
--------------Mata------------
------Rooney--------RVP--------
B-squad
-----------Lindegaard----------
Valencia---Smalling--Evans--Young
-------------Fletcher------------
-----Cleverley-------Fellaini------
-------------Kagawa------------
------Januzaj--------Welbeck
Reserves: Blacket, Lingard and Johnstone
Out: Nani, Hernandez, Zaha, Anderson
I read a book called 'Inverting the Pyramid' which describes the tactical evolution of teams over the decades. 3-5-2 was useful against sides who played with 2 up top and was able to outnumber the opposition in the middle. But fewer teams used it once 4-3-3/4-5-1 became more normal. 3 centre backs on one striker was pointless, while the wing forwards would be able to press the wing backs back into defence. This leads to losing any advantage you had in the middle or up front. Just thought it was quite interesting.
Still, I think we should keep trying it, but it was also good to see us adapt to a different formation in the second half.
All those 10's are just holding down the manager and the team. Too many players will try to occupy the same space. Quick fix would be to sell Mata and/or Kagawa (because none of them can defend as a part of 3 man midfield), and replace them with Khedira and Di Maria, and play this:
But then you have no cover for half of the first 11. Still, it looks so much more natural then this 3-5-2 setup.
But then you have no cover for half of the first 11. Still, it looks so much more natural then this 3-5-2 setup.
what...
I watch 20 United games a season so I don't see things as good as you people. Why do you think this is not a good idea?
Its also because we have so many strikers and number 10s.
We could (and may yet) get Di Maria in. However even for someone as unbothered by reputations as Van Gaal, going for a formation that only really left one place for Rooney, RvP, Mata, Kagawa, Hernandez & Wellbeck to fight over would be a pretty bold move.
That said, right now, an attacking trio of Januzaj-Rooney-Di Maria feels quite appealing.
Well, I'm just judging it by the players he picked today. Surely his thinking was that Januzaj, Fellaini, and Nani were not fit enough to start? That's why Lingard and Hernandez got the nods in the first place. If he was picking the fittest players, Reece James played in nearly every pre-season game and would have allowed us to go 4411 the easiest (and was probably the better choice to go 3412 to be honest).
What we'd do and what LvG would do / did are different things, clearly.
I have always thought you need two real top class wing backs and a cb who is almost a sweeper for it to work, we don't have any of that and I feel we are only using it to accommodate players up front so how successful it is will probably be entirely dependent on RVP, Rooney and mata.
So we let Hernandez and Kagawa go then make the four of Van Persie, Rooney, Mata and Welbeck fight it out for the No.9 and No.10 spots, sign a dangerous winger and let it flow in a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1. Shoehorning players into positions is not good and neither do I like to bench Januzaj or pass up on Di Maria so as to have Shaw and Rafael as our primary offensive threats from wide positions.
It certainly requires two very fit wing backs and we do have Evans who can be an effective sweeper I feel.
I'm still unsure on whether that front 3 will work. I know he's not everyones favourite player but Welbeck makes the ideal partner for Rooney or RVP. He can be a donkey in front of goal but his pace, power and ability in the final third makes him difficult to play against. He could be the ideal player to peel into those wide areas when the opposition wide players press up to pin our wing back back.
Fair shout, though the way that Van Gaal plays 4-3-3 is without a number 10, so no Mata. With Holland he played Sneijder in the middle 3, which is Herrera territory.
De Gea
Rafael-Jones-Smalling-Shaw
Herrera-Carrick-Fletch
Di Maria-Rooney-Januzaj
That kind of thing. Looks better to us, but bear in mind he's been here less than a month, even for LVG dropping half a dozen of our attackers including the record signing we bought 6 months ago is a bold move, and not one he'll do without being sure.Rafael-Jones-Smalling-Shaw
Herrera-Carrick-Fletch
Di Maria-Rooney-Januzaj
Agreed. For a 3-4-3 to work your strikers need to work wide areas. Both to use space to attack and to harry the opposition full backs. Hernandez today was just unable to do that, and Rooney tended to drop deep rather than wide. The upshot, the game gets congested in the middle, and the wingbacks are isolated.
Danny already works and presses in those wide areas, which suits the formation much better.
Also, if Danny is pulling into those areas, the opposition managers might not fancy a one on one in the full back areas and might withdraw their wing forward or pull a midfielder across which either frees up our wing back to push forward or creates more space in the middle for Mata or Herrera to work in.
Problem with Evans is he gets injured a lot and I still think he isn't quite at the level to be great in that position. Utd he may grow into it. I don't see those three working very well but it think LVG will want to try it because they are our 3 stand out players other then DDG. As you say without someone offering some pace and stretching the opposition I think we will struggle.
It didn't help that Chicharito offered didly squat on the ball which made it easier for Swansea. RVP can hold up the play and out manoeuvre his marker using his strength, technique and artistry.
Yeah and RVP only needs half a chance but even with all our players fit I think we will be quite pedestrian and there won't be enough pace and quality out wide, too early to judge the formation but I do think it will end up a failed experiment.
Di Maria just had the best season of his career so far playing as the left CM in a 4-3-3 and you want to move him out wide again?All those 10's are just holding down the manager and the team. Too many players will try to occupy the same space. Quick fix would be to sell Mata and/or Kagawa (because none of them can defend as a part of 3 man midfield), and replace them with Khedira and Di Maria, and play this:
But then you have no cover for half of the first 11. Still, it looks so much more natural then this 3-5-2 setup.
I liked the system in pre season. It's pretty unfortunate that we're now without our two first team RWBs, probable first choice LWB, and had to play our fourth choice striker.
So, maybe we should've dropped it for the moment...played a formation that suited the fit players and come back to the 3-5-2. I still don't think there's a problem with the system, but there is a problem with Lingard/Januzaj/Young as the wing-backs and Hernandez as one of the forwards.
So, maybe we should've dropped it for the moment...played a formation that suited the fit players and come back to the 3-5-2. I still don't think there's a problem with the system, but there is a problem with Lingard/Januzaj/Young as the wing-backs and Hernandez as one of the forwards.
It wasn't the formation that was to blame it was the injuries and the players who did play's performance
LVG made some odd decisions as well, why Januzaj on the right? Why when he came on Nani on the left? Why take Herrera off?
My worry long term about the formation now is do we have the right players to play wing-back? Defensively I have no problems over Rafael and Shaw playing there but providing an attacking threat.... not sure.
LVG made some odd decisions as well, why Januzaj on the right? Why when he came on Nani on the left? Why take Herrera off?
My worry long term about the formation now is do we have the right players to play wing-back? Defensively I have no problems over Rafael and Shaw playing there but providing an attacking threat.... not sure.
We still need pace in attack. You could see the change it made once Adnan and Nani started taking on defenders and creating openings. That front 3 we started with today was way too static and passive in attack. If we are to play a 3-4-1-2, we need the #10 and one of the two strikers, both full backs to be able to dribble at defenders.
The thing we are missing is players in CM who are capable and comfortable running at defences with the ball. We no longer seem to be able to go past midfields 1v1. 1 touch football and good movement off the ball can do only so much. We lack the variety that comes with ball carriers and the uncertainty that creates in opposition teams. "When will they pass, when will they dribble?".
LvG himself admitted that this formation is not his favoured one but he is playing it because we are too top heavy and we lack quality in wide areas. Well we could sell to of our forwards in Kagawa and Hernandez and make the other four fight it out for two positions. Whilst the dearth of quality on the flanks is a touch difficult we can sign one top winger for now and play Januzaj on the flank.
Whilst LvG may not want to pull out one of our big name players, he of all people knows that the team comes first and in that vein he must be bold, it's either he plays Mata in the hole and have Rooney and RvP go head to head or he drops Mata and try to see if Rooney and RvP can link up well.
Having Shaw and Rafael as our primary attacking threats doesn't bode well against 75% of this league who will happily let us have the ball and look pick us apart on the break. If he wants to analytical he will notice how Holland's goals dried up in the KO stages at the WC when he encountered teams that didn't take the game to the Netherlands.
I think the formation was an issue in that who was left to play it in the back 3/wingbacks aren't suited to it. Need at least one/two speacialist ball players in the defence and wingbacks with better defensive awareness who will create space by running down the line or carrying the ball. I think in general these caused issues as they are significant factors in slowing our play imo.
Agree on the off decisions though bar Januzaj on the right, if he's going to play wide I think he's best there just cause he can come on to his left and not have to rely on his pace as much.
In terms of Rafael/Shaw I think they should be fine, not sure on Shaw's crossing, Rafaels needs some improving but I think they're both willing runners and part of what we need from them going forward is just to stretch the game by getting up and down that line which both can do. Also think we have the option of playing one and then say Januzaj on the other flank and getting that defender to maybe hold back a little to allow Januzaj to have a bit more freedom.
I don't believe we have enough players in the squad that suit this 3-5-2 formation. That's not to say that some of them won't adapt to it in time, nor to say that we should bin the system and not just bin the players once new ones are bought in.
It's fair to say we had a fair few out today which clearly made a difference. Having Rafael Valencia Shaw Evans Carrick and RVP back would allow a better view of the system.
It's fair to say we had a fair few out today which clearly made a difference. Having Rafael Valencia Shaw Evans Carrick and RVP back would allow a better view of the system.