The same can be said about Rooney.
So the 3-5-2
- Thread starter Ole's_toe_poke
- Start date
The same can be said about Rooney.
De Gea
Smalling - Evans - Jones
Young - Fletcher - Shaw
Herrera
Mata - Kagawa
Rooney
Assuming RVP is not fit. Swap him for Kagawa if he is.
Smalling - Evans - Jones
Young - Fletcher - Shaw
Herrera
Mata - Kagawa
Rooney
Assuming RVP is not fit. Swap him for Kagawa if he is.
On last night's performance? Not really. Wasn't on top of his game but involved in almost all our best moments. I can barely even remember Mata making a decent pass. Completely anonymous.
Obviously, we're not spoilt for choice in terms of on form attacking talents but if this formation means Mata, Rooney and RvP are the only players on the pitch we're relying on to create and score goals then Mata's performance last night is a bit of a worry.
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I don’t get this „we have one more defender and one less attacking player”. Basically, when we have the ball and opposition sits deep, we play with 3 defenders and 2 wingbacks higher up the pitch, staying wide. When we are playing against tougher opposition they can also stay deeper. In that case we have 5 at the back, but one midfielder (probably Herrera) can move and support the attack more often than in the usual 4-2-3-1/4-4-2.
It all depends on wingbacks though- if van Gaal can make them solid in defense and contribute in attack, this will work. Hard to say though, he sees the wing-backs as the truly 'specialised' position in this system we're using, so it will take time for Shaw/Young/Rafael to adjust.
I don’t think we will switch to 4-3-3 anytime soon with current personnel, there is no such thing as “no 10” in 4-3-3 and you only play with one striker. (unless you’re talking about 4-3-1-2, but this is too narrow IMO).
We created next to nothing yesterday and that was reminiscent of most games last year at OT. Only when Januzaj came on and started playing off the striker, did we start creating chances. I am not sure whether a combination of Mata, RVP and Rooney will work in a 3-5-2, and I have been concerned throughout the summer, because everyone likes to drift out wide or come infield. This will result in all three getting in each others way again like RVP said last year.
I would go with something like this
Rafael Jones Evans Shaw
Herrera Carrick
Januzaj Mata Rooney
RVP
The three behind RVP being really fluid and interchanging positions will mean, we will occupy more defenders and more space for RVP to make runs.
Also, I am not confident of the back 3 against the likes of Hazard, Schrule, Walcott, Sterling, Sanchez etc..,
I would go with something like this
Rafael Jones Evans Shaw
Herrera Carrick
Januzaj Mata Rooney
RVP
The three behind RVP being really fluid and interchanging positions will mean, we will occupy more defenders and more space for RVP to make runs.
Also, I am not confident of the back 3 against the likes of Hazard, Schrule, Walcott, Sterling, Sanchez etc..,
With how our signings seem to be going....
Ideally, as much as I enjoy the 3-5-2, I think the 4-3-3 is what we'll end up with.
Not liking the width on Rooney though. What a predicament.
De Gea
Smalling Jones Rojo
Di Maria Herrera Fletcher Shaw
Mata
Rooney Van Persie
Smalling Jones Rojo
Di Maria Herrera Fletcher Shaw
Mata
Rooney Van Persie
Ideally, as much as I enjoy the 3-5-2, I think the 4-3-3 is what we'll end up with.
De Gea
Rafael Smalling Jones Shaw
Herrera Fletcher
Mata
Di Maria Van Persie Rooney
Rafael Smalling Jones Shaw
Herrera Fletcher
Mata
Di Maria Van Persie Rooney
Not liking the width on Rooney though. What a predicament.
This formation basically swaps Januzaj for Smalling so not sure how it is more defensively sound. Your team frightens me To be honest and I can see why LVG feels we need an extra cb.
Nothing wrong with the 3-5-2.
The difference is the CBs need to be more confident with bringing the ball forward. If we had a young Ferdinand and hummels it would be amazing.
I noticed valencia were happy to sit deep and swallow up midfield and the wingbacks, to allow the 3 at the back the ball. Whoever has the ball needs to be brave and advance higher up the pitch, to free up space for the players higher up.
The problem is they were releasing the ball far too early, and were not breaking Valencias shell. We were giving it to the wingbacks while they were still quite deep, which made us easy to contain.
Just a bit more speed and bravery from the back and we will open up teams better.
The difference is the CBs need to be more confident with bringing the ball forward. If we had a young Ferdinand and hummels it would be amazing.
I noticed valencia were happy to sit deep and swallow up midfield and the wingbacks, to allow the 3 at the back the ball. Whoever has the ball needs to be brave and advance higher up the pitch, to free up space for the players higher up.
The problem is they were releasing the ball far too early, and were not breaking Valencias shell. We were giving it to the wingbacks while they were still quite deep, which made us easy to contain.
Just a bit more speed and bravery from the back and we will open up teams better.
Don't forget that all teams are more cautious in the knock out phases of the WC, it's the most natural thing to do because there's so much at stake. Furthermore, the Netherlands faced two teams, Mexico and Costa Rica, that used even more defensive versions of 3-5-2. When they played Argentina, a team with more quality on the pitch, van Gaal's tactics worked fine.
Even in the group game against Australia, he didn't hesitate to use Depay and switch to 4-3-3, when he understood that the extra defender wasn't necessary against an inferior opponent. The same thing happened against Chile. I think he sees 3-5-2 as an alternative plan which helps him create competitive teams.
I guess it's the way you see things. I've watched many La Liga matches and imho teams like Valencia, Sevilla and Athletic Bilbao are more than decent. If you give them space to exploit, they will simply kill you on the pitch. That's the biggest positive from yesterday's game. We looked pretty solid at the back, in control of the game and you could sense that if one team was going to win the match, it would be us.
I couldn't help but make the comparison with last season's matches against Everton, Newcastle, WBA, Fulham etc. In those matches, even though we we looked decent whenever we could raise the tempo for 10-20 minutes in each half, we looked shaky at the back and you could feel those games were 50-50 at best.
Imo that's how the season will go. We don't have the midfielders, right now, nor the attacking wingers to support 4-3-3 as our main formation and play it at top level. LvG has chosen to sacrifice some of our attacking options in order to create safety at the back and always have enough numbers in the middle of the pitch, so that we will be able to control the tempo and be at the driver's seat against teams that hurt us a lot last season, especially at OT.
@Colin129
I think that we are more balanced With Welbeck in the 3-4-3 and i think that Rooney (if we sign a very good winger) will take the place upfront, in the 4-2-3-1, because he is the captain.
Januzaj will have to fight for his place against Mata and RVP, and RVP is the one who will lose this battle.
You have a traditional back 4. Like I said, the 3 at the back will definitely be over run against good sides like Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Liverpool who have some scary pace on the flanks. An extra CB doesn't mean you are defensively sound. If we play 3 at the back, the wingbacks would be doubled up by say,Hazard and Luis or Walcott and Debuchy as was evident against Liverpool, where Sterling clearly had a great game.
We are just playing 3-5-2 now, because our forward line up is so imbalanced and LVG feels Mata,RVP and Rooney should play in their best positions. Sooner or later one of them must be sacrificed positionally.
What would people say to making the 3412 slightly lopsided, like this:
You sacrifice one wing-back and let Januzaj play as a proper winger/wide AM/inside forward (whatever you want to call that free wide attacking role). As a winger he's no slouch in terms of defensive work-rate, and Fletcher and Jones between them should have more than enough defensive nous and energy to cover that space.
I know people like formations to be symmetrical, but they very rarely work out that way on the pitch. And Ancelotti last season showed how effective it can be to abandon that symmetry in order to put a particular player exactly where the team needs him.
This way, Januzaj gets to play regularly, and we have some pace and unpredictability in our attack. Welbeck would also be excellent in that position, offering the same sort of qualities. Since his Alkmaar days Van Gaal has always liked to play with one pacy, unpredictable forward (El Hamdaoui for AZ, Robben for Bayern and the Netherlands), and Januzaj fits that mould perfectly.
You sacrifice one wing-back and let Januzaj play as a proper winger/wide AM/inside forward (whatever you want to call that free wide attacking role). As a winger he's no slouch in terms of defensive work-rate, and Fletcher and Jones between them should have more than enough defensive nous and energy to cover that space.
I know people like formations to be symmetrical, but they very rarely work out that way on the pitch. And Ancelotti last season showed how effective it can be to abandon that symmetry in order to put a particular player exactly where the team needs him.
This way, Januzaj gets to play regularly, and we have some pace and unpredictability in our attack. Welbeck would also be excellent in that position, offering the same sort of qualities. Since his Alkmaar days Van Gaal has always liked to play with one pacy, unpredictable forward (El Hamdaoui for AZ, Robben for Bayern and the Netherlands), and Januzaj fits that mould perfectly.
I'd actually prefer 343, to have 8 of the 10 field players playing in the centrum is too easy to defend, you barely have width and its unreasonable to expect all the needed with from the full backs. I am watching Bayern vs Dortmund now and see that its much more easy to penetrate when playing 343. The backline stays the same, central midfield also and the wingbacks also, but the change is going from 2 wingplayers to 4, and 2 strikers to 1. With 343 you could place Mata, and Rooney as wingers, wingers who make runs to the centrum, it still would offer more width than 352, Mata and Rooney are able to cross, the are able to beat a defender, I think that little extra could be useful. The fullbacks of the opponent are under much more pressure.
Moving two of our best players out of position, and trying to add width by pushing two central players wide? Doesn't sound like a very good idea to me, to be honest. Rooney and Mata can't provide actual width, and will be much worse at their existing jobs.
They both have proven to do excellent jobs when not played central, you remember the famous MaCaZar? When Oscar played in the hole and Mata came from the wing? He was excellent, played left mid/wing at Valencia wich earned him a transfer to Chelsea and interest from Barca, you know Wayne's story. But we simply dont have the quality to penetrate when a team sits back with al those players playing central.
Rooney is regularly roundly criticised when he has to play from a wide position. Pundits, fans and Mata himself have all acknowledged that he, too, is much less useful in a wide role these days. And besides, you're not actually going to achieve the whole aim of your formation - adding width - by pushing those two into the wide spots. They'll always, always look to come central. All you're doing is making their existing jobs harder to do without really getting anything in return.
The current 3-4-1-2 is not perfect (I've suggested my own alternative above your post). But I think your suggested shape would be significantly worse. We may be slightly too central as it stands, but at least everyone is in the correct position.
I do see the problem you're trying to address though. I think it might become less of an issue as our players get more used to the wingback position. There are already good signs from Shaw, and I'd be confident of Rafael suiting the position more than Young (and we might be bringing in someone like Cuadrado anyway).
It is a something is better than nothing, it offers you more width, and that little more width could make a difference, Rooney and Mata are also players who take orders from coaches, Mata has improved his defensively play since the Mourinho criticising for example. Okay they will play in their favourite positions but I really doubt that will benefit them, Mata will get no space to play his football, it is so easy to make him invisible as we saw yesterday. It is incredibly difficult to reach him in spaces in which he can create something. We saw that with Sneijder at the World Cup, he played in his favo role but was significantly worse than when he played from left at Galatasaray, he was restricted to defending, and was often invisible. I am seriously starting to think the number 10 role in this formation is just useless. As I said, playing in a role thats not your favourite doesnt have to be a bad thing, like Robben, who never played there but played his best football yet as a striker in my eyes, and the Sneijder example. Rooney is always criticised, thats not an argument for me, people are even saying he was one of England's worse players at the WC, and has always been a scapegoat. Fact is that Rooney has only really played as striker in 2009/2010, and 2011/2012?
So you are ignoring the personal and just clinging to numbers. Swapping Smalling for Januzaj makes us less defensively solid all other things being equal not matter how you spin it.
3-5-2 can be written as a 5-3-2 especially if your wingbacks are exactly the same players (Shaw/Rafael) who would play as full backs.
It makes no sense to talk purely formations and ignore personal. The system is a great fit for our current squad, your formation is basically what was getting turned over by too many teams last season.
Spain did not manage to overrun 3-5-2 so what makes you so sure city chelsea Liverpool will - plus they did it to your formation last season in any case.
If they double up in any area it means there are huge gaps elsewhere for the likes of mata and Rooney/RVP to exploit, whatever formation they are limited to the same number.
Are we going to use the 3-5-2 once we return to Europe ?
So we should abandon this idea. Fat Sam has given his verdict.
http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/9422059/allardyce-critical-of-3-5-2-'fad'
http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/9422059/allardyce-critical-of-3-5-2-'fad'
I think that by the time that happens the squad would have better balance. LVG has said that this system allows us to use our best players and that we have too many attacking options. If he has time to shape the squad I think a 4-3-3 will be used just as often, especially in Europe.
I think he has it backwards; The 3-5-2 fits our squad damn near perfectly (another passer at the back aside), but it might not be the right system to rack up 80+ points in the Prem.
The Dutch world cup summarised the good and the bad of 3-5-2. Good: strong organisation and teamwork, concede few goals. Bad: struggle to score goals (0 goals in 4 hours in quarter and semi final), over-rely on magic from front players (basically Robben, with some help from Van Persie). Ultimately, Holland was long on work horses and short of overall attacking quality.
We have more in attack with Van Persie (when fit), Rooney, Mata and Januzaj. The first 3 of those provide plenty of goals and assists so it may work.
We have more in attack with Van Persie (when fit), Rooney, Mata and Januzaj. The first 3 of those provide plenty of goals and assists so it may work.
I detest that dinosaur, fat Sam. What ignorant crap he spoke. What he was really saying is that it's an unforgivable sin to not play a 442.
An excellent article - includes some tactical analysis - on LvG by Jonathan Wilson:
The Louis van Gaal dossier: a definitive look at the life, times and tactics of the new Manchester United coach
The Louis van Gaal dossier: a definitive look at the life, times and tactics of the new Manchester United coach
Top article thank (though its by Jonathan Liew not Wilson.)
That's pretty much why van Gaal went with 3 at the back. He knew we didn't have a midfielder who had both the energy levels and defensive capability to play in a midfield 2. Carrick can read the game well and close down passing avenues, but he doesn't have the energy levels to play as an aggressive ball winner and close down many of the spaces around him. Herrera plays aggressively and looks to win the ball quickly regardless of where the ball is. Fletcher also doesn't have the energy levels to cover a large area. Herrera's positioning is decent and better than Fellaini's or Cleverley's, but his aggressive nature means he often gets out of position and leaves gaps in midfield. Fellaini's similar to Herrera, defensively, and likewise with Cleverley, but both have worse awareness and defensive positioning.
I believe that if we had an energetic midfielder who was defensively strong, we might have gone with a 4-3-3. As it stands, though, we don't, so we play with 3 at the back to compensate for the midfield's defensive weaknesses.
The main compnent of the 3 in the back is a libero. Jones still needs to mature as a defender far less sweeper/libero. With our injury record, esp in defence, I don't think we can sustain the 3-5-2 consistently.
The creativity from the middle is also missing. Flaetcher/Carrick are good on song, but neither are capable of controlling the game from the middle.
The creativity from the middle is also missing. Flaetcher/Carrick are good on song, but neither are capable of controlling the game from the middle.
That fat Sam vid 
Clueless oaf.
Clueless oaf.I think it was more the opposition that played to shut down the Holland team. I think the team did well in the quarter and semi. And yes I agree, our front attack is better I think.
That's it. Also, RvP underperformed after the first match. Something just didn't look right in his play and once he became a nonfactor the Netherlands were entirely reliant on Robben.
But it shouldn't be overlooked that no one foresaw the Netherlands going as far as they did. And they did, despite RvP being a relative nonfactor as the WC wore on.
Apparently West Ham played a bit of 352 in preseason so that fat sam vid is a bit confusing 
The opposition will play to shut us down much of the time, though, as well.
How quickly do we see a 0-0 game lead to a 4-3-3 with Januzaj coming on for a CB, as LVG did with Depay coming on Indi Martins? We have 6 games we'll be favored in to start the year. I say game 3, away at Sunderland.
Apologies! Thanks for correcting me, mate.
The matches with the top teams usually end up more sterile anyway. If you can squeak out a result against top teams and pulverize the rest, then you can win trophies.
The Dutch were only penalties away from the Final, and how beautiful were Argentina or Brazil to watch?
Agreed however as our lads have a better attacking side and Louis van Gaal, I expect us to nab wins even against teams like Sunderland. Maybe I shouldn´t have such a high expectation but I believe in the lads and the gaffer.
Nah, it's good. We can't change things anyways. I'm just a pessimistic cnut, really. We'll win the double!
Dyer and Routledge have caused us a lot of problems in the past and are one of the best pairs of wingers in the league so it should be a good test for one of the biggest weak points of this setup.
We need a number 6 in this system rather than another number 8.
Even though Mata lost track of ki for the first goal, a number 6 would have been stationed in that space that was left exposed. William Carvalho would have been our smartest addition this summer.
Even though Mata lost track of ki for the first goal, a number 6 would have been stationed in that space that was left exposed. William Carvalho would have been our smartest addition this summer.