So the 3-5-2

[Redguern]

Really not understanding all the people so keen that LVG 'must decide' between Rooney & RVP. That is crazy - RVP is a great striker and Wayne is also a top player (see his goal and assist for Mata v Roma etc.). Both would ideally start in our best line-up.

Similarly Mata is most effective centrally. Again, the 3-5-2 allows him the freedom to do his thing behind the strikers.

People complaining about use of Young/Valencia as wing backs likely being as ineffective as they were as wingers last year are missing the point - Last season there were not the central 3 of RVP-Wazza-Mata all interchanging, dragging defenders around and creating space for the wing backs. I can see more chances to get behind the opposition defence with the front-line that Van Gaal is constructing...

Even the 3 at the back seems to be tailor made for our Smalling - Evans - Jones dilemma. All can play and each can play to their strengths, particularly Jonny with his distribution from the back and Phil with his love of bombing forward!

In Louis we trust!

 

[Borys]

Really not understanding all the people so keen that LVG 'must decide' between Rooney & RVP. That is crazy - RVP is a great striker and Wayne is also a top player (see his goal and assist for Mata v Roma etc.). Both would ideally start in our best line-up.
Similarly Mata is most effective centrally. Again, the 3-5-2 allows him the freedom to do his thing behind the strikers.

Nobody’s arguing that they are our best players. The case is that sometimes more balanced team gives you better results than just the sum of individuals (especially if the squad is unbalanced, like in our case). That’s just a thought, but it’s reasonable I guess.

People complaining about use of Young/Valencia as wing backs likely being as ineffective as they were as wingers last year are missing the point - Last season there were not the central 3 of RVP-Wazza-Mata all interchanging, dragging defenders around and creating space for the wing backs. I can see more chances to get behind the opposition defence with the front-line that Van Gaal is constructing...

I do agree that if we move the ball quicker around the pitch, Valencia will get more space around the box. The problem is, however, that I don’t think it changes anything as his crossing is woeful these days. Not sure if any setup can heal that. (I’m talking about Valencia as I don’t see Young as a wingback).

Even the 3 at the back seems to be tailor made for our Smalling - Evans - Jones dilemma. All can play and each can play to their strengths, particularly Jonny with his distribution from the back and Phil with his love of bombing forward!
In Louis we trust!

I hope so!

 

[Juan't Mata]

If we are desperate for all of Rooney/Mata/RvP to start, I'd rather go 4-3-1-2

Dave
Rafael Evans Jones Shaw
Herrera Carrick Cleverley?
Mata
Rooney RvP​

If Carrick sits slightly deeper when we don't have the ball and it's a 3412 anyway. Could see this being tried at some stage actually.

 

[Americano]

When we play 3 at the back, what do you call those 3 players? They're not really "center backs" anymore, are they? They're at the back but only one is in the center.

 

[bm_5]

When we play 3 at the back, what do you call those 3 players? They're not really "center backs" anymore, are they? They're at the back but only one is in the center.

One is in the middle of the other two, but all three are in the center third of the pitch. So yes, they are are still center backs.

 

[Sam]

Really not convinced by Jones/Smalling/Evans. I reckon any top team will have a field day against them.

 

[Pexbo]

When we play 3 at the back, what do you call those 3 players? They're not really "center backs" anymore, are they? They're at the back but only one is in the center.

So by that logic when we play two at the back we have no centre backs?

 

[Rozay]

LVG has basically turned us into an Italian team. Adnan will become a fecking wing back most likely.

 

[Americano]

So by that logic when we play two at the back we have no centre backs?

So you see what I'm talking about. I'm just having a hard time calling some guy out on the left a "center" anything!

I'm focused on solving the problem, maybe "interior defender" or something like that would be more geographically accurate for the two guys not right in the middle of the 3.

 

[Red Shorts]

They're all centre backs, it's really not that hard

 

[Godfather]

Looks ok defensively, our wingbacks have no clue what to do though.

 

[Zii]

A system like anything simplifies the game and allows players to shine. You know your job which in turn eliminates doubt from your play, should I attack or defend now? This makes players be able to perfect their job and not take over other people role. For example Mata will be judged on his ability to create and score, not if he tracks back on the wing because that job falls to the wingback, you don't have to cover for other players mistakes as much because if they keep making mistakes as a CM for example, it wont be the defenders that get slated for not defending, LVG will no the root cause and replace the cm. This for me allows players to shine. Valencia has been great because he isn't a pure winger and he knows his job, he defends, wins balls and counters. With him being a wingback and not a winger he will typically receive the ball deeper which allows him to exploit his pace, rather then being stuck so far up.

It always highlights player weaknesses. Young hasn't been good and clearly isn't specialised as a wingback and as a result all our play has gone through Valencia and we look predictable and easy to defend. Our CM's aren't world beaters but they aren't getting streched or trying to cover 5 positions at once. They have a role and its when all these roles come together do you see a team peformance. Thats why I think with a system like this we are correct in not going for people like Fabregas because we didn't need him, what we actually need for this system to work is a topclass wingback (rafael could be good at this but he is always injured) and a CB to stop balls over the top.

I really love the fact we have a technical manager that recognises its not Matas job to play on the wing. If you are a #10 you fight for the #10 spot in his system, if you don't make the cut, you aren't playing because it is no good simply bashing a second number 10 on the wing to make him happy or because he can pass because he won't give the squad what it needs as a wingback and with then simultaneously make everyone job harder. This is why systems are a good think, they also allow for quicker more streamlined improvements as you always have the same base to build upon, already we are seeing our weaknessess in CB/Wingback and we haven't even played a competitive game. Under Moyes we never saw improvement as the system always changed.

 

[Balu]

Still looks like a 4-1-4-1 but of course with a lot of movement. Will be interesting to see if he will keep the box to box CB going once the season starts or if he just did it because Alaba was playing as a CB. Do you think Boateng could play a similar role even in the competitive games?

In the following pre-season games since then, it looked more and more like a back three. Yesterday night it was pretty much:

Lewandowski
Ribery ------- Pizarro
Bernat Gaudino Rode Höjbjerg
Alaba Martinez Rafael
Starke
​

It looks more and more like Alaba really will be the left sided centerback this season. But it's definitely more of a 343 than a 352. Wide midfielders instead of wingbacks and at least one fullback as the wide centerback in the back three.

 

[bishblaize]

In the following pre-season games since then, it looked more and more like a back three. Yesterday night it was pretty much:

Lewandowski
Ribery ------- Pizarro
Bernat Gaudino Rode Höjbjerg
Alaba Martinez Rafael
Starke
​

It looks more and more like Alaba really will be the left sided centerback this season. But it's definitely more of a 343 than a 352. Wide midfielders instead of wingbacks and at least one fullback as the wide centerback in the back three.

Do you think Pep will try the 2-3-2-3 again (the 'w-w') that he used against us in the Munich leg last season?

 

[Balu]

Do you think Pep will try the 2-3-2-3 again (the 'w-w') that he used against us in the Munich leg last season?

God, I hope not . While it was fun to see a team play it on the highest possible level, I don't think it's suited to modern football. The necessary movement in transition takes too much time for the players to react to counterattacks, in my opinion. I still believe that he wants to recreate something close to Cruyff's dream team 3-4-3 formation. Really difficult to pull off, but if it works, it's pretty much the perfect line-up to play beautiful football. And he already tried it in his final season at Barca.

 

[NoLogo]

In the following pre-season games since then, it looked more and more like a back three. Yesterday night it was pretty much:

Lewandowski
Ribery ------- Pizarro
Bernat Gaudino Rode Höjbjerg
Alaba Martinez Rafael
Starke
​

It looks more and more like Alaba really will be the left sided centerback this season. But it's definitely more of a 343 than a 352. Wide midfielders instead of wingbacks and at least one fullback as the wide centerback in the back three.

Well in LvG's words we are also playing a 3-4-3 and not a 4-5-2 like most people are calling it which is understandable. Especially if you consider that in our formation only one of the front 3 is sitting deeper while the other two are more attacking and in Peps variation there are essentially 2 of the front three sitting deeper so it could also be called a 3-6-1.

Whatever the outcome may be I'm really interested in seeing if the 3 at the back will make a larger comeback in other countries than Italy but I'm somewhat sceptical that apart from a few elite coaches anyone else in England, Spain or Germany will actually go for 3 at the back.

 

[gooDevil]

God, I hope not . While it was fun to see a team play it on the highest possible level, I don't think it's suited to modern football. The necessary movement in transition takes too much time for the players to react to counterattacks, in my opinion. I still believe that he wants to recreate something close to Cruyff's dream team 3-4-3 formation. Really difficult to pull off, but if it works, it's pretty much the perfect line-up to play beautiful football. And he already tried it in his final season at Barca.

What's the Cruyff dream 343 like?

 

[Balu]

What's the Cruyff dream 343 like?

A bit like the following, though Laudrup played different roles during his years at Barca and Stoichkov peaked in the team before Romario joined Barca.

The most beautiful football ever in my opinion, such a wonderful balance between possession and directness, individual skill and collective movement. You really need to look for footage from that team between 91 and 94. The first one that appeared on youtube for me right now, was the 5-0 classico win and you can see the crazy back three in the build up from the back very well. Earlier games with Laudrup and Stoichkov starting are even more beautiful though.

 

[FromTheBench]

Well in LvG's words we are also playing a 3-4-3 and not a 4-5-2 like most people are calling it which is understandable. Especially if you consider that in our formation only one of the front 3 is sitting deeper while the other two are more attacking and in Peps variation there are essentially 2 of the front three sitting deeper so it could also be called a 3-6-1.

Whatever the outcome may be I'm really interested in seeing if the 3 at the back will make a larger comeback in other countries than Italy but I'm somewhat sceptical that apart from a few elite coaches anyone else in England, Spain or Germany will actually go for 3 at the back.

A number of Premier League teams look set to embrace the 3-5-2.

http://www1.skysports.com/football/...once-again-after-its-success-at-the-world-cup


Hull and Liverpool were the only ones who played it in decent number of games last season IIRC. Actually few championship teams have used it more.

 

[NoLogo]

Hull and Liverpool were the only ones who played it in decent number of games last season IIRC. Actually few championship teams have used it more.

Now that you mention it Liverpool indeed played three at the back at times. Will be interesting to see if we will see a shift back to three at the back formations again.

 

[gooDevil]

A bit like the following, though Laudrup played different roles during his years at Barca and Stoichkov peaked in the team before Romario joined Barca.

The most beautiful football ever in my opinion, such a wonderful balance between possession and directness, individual skill and collective movement. You really need to look for footage from that team between 91 and 94. The first one that appeared on youtube for me right now, was the 5-0 classico win and you can see the crazy back three in the build up from the back very well. Earlier games with Laudrup and Stoichkov starting are even more beautiful though.

For those like me that don't really know those players above it doesn't explain how this 'Cruyff dream 343' differs from a normal 343. If you wouldn't mind elaborating I'd appreciate it.

 

[Balu]

For those like me that don't really know those players above it doesn't explain how this 'Cruyff dream 343' differs from a normal 343. If you wouldn't mind elaborating I'd appreciate it.

Well, it's pretty much a centerback who can't defend according to most people (Koeman), 2 fullbacks (Sergi & Ferrer), a deep lying playmaker who isn't really good at defending either (Guardiola) and lots of attacking players. It's difficult to explain how it actually worked and even more difficult to believe that it actually did.

The following was the closest Guardiola came to rebuild it at Barca in his last season there, but he was still more conservative in his defensive approach in comparison to Cruyff's team in the early 90's. It's the line-up from Barca's 8-0 win against Osasuna (I'm pretty sure Guardiola also played it with Alves as the right sided centerback and Pedro or Sanchez as the right winger that season, but I can't find it now). Still it should give you an idea how it could look like with modern players.

There's also that youtube video where Cruyff explains his diamond:

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

What a wonderful team to watch, that Barca side that won four consecutive La Liga titles and won the first European Cup for the club... Cruyff's 3-4-3 keeps being mentioned by football experts worldwide because it's a high risk formation which depends a lot on each player's understanding of space, on the incredible team work and the use of 8 players (!!!) who can create and score in open play. In simple words a formation that aims to outsmart the opposition and score as many goals as possible.

The beauty of Cruyff's 3-4-3 lies in the balance of risks in a symmetrical formation. In the video above Cruyff, at some point, mentions that if the winger loses the ball in the final third and then he must, by tactical choice, run down all the pitch to track the opposition FB (which is basicaly what everyone does), then the tactics are wrong!

Cruff refers to Total Football as Pressing football. When the ball is lost on the wing, the winger has to track back the opposition full back until the middle of the pitch, with the inside left/right CM blocking a pass towards more central areas. From the middle of the pitch until the defensive third it's the left/right CB's job (who is naturally a wingback) to press the man with the ball.

It defies common logic but, when it works, it gives you a hell of an advantage in the attacking third. Cruff used 2 peripheral strikers as wingers/inside forwards (Beguiristain and Stoitchkov-my God, what a player) in a system where they could focus their energy and efforts solely in the attacking half. In that way they were always near the CF and didn't allow the opposition defensive line to move up. Plus the wingbacks, playing as CBs, could observe the whole of the pitch and see where's open space to make runs and create numerical advantages.

And all that while always having 4 men in the midfield so they don't get outnumbered. Almost overlapping with the lone "pure" CB, a DM is the bottom peak of the midfield diamond. Up front at the top of the diamond there's an AM, able to move in the box as a second striker but also capable of pressing like crazy. On both sides of the diamond they played with players who could be described today as something between an #8 and a #10!

Can we imagine United play with De Gea-Smalling (CB)-Rafael (RCB)-Shaw (LCB) at the back, a diamond midfield of Carrick (DM)-Herrera, Mata (CMs), Kagawa (AM) and RvP up front with Rooney and Welbeck or Januzaj as wingers? No, i don't think so. Yet with the addition of Vidal we could play a pretty solid diamond in the midfield with Carrick as DM, Mata as AM and Herrera-Vidal as box to box CMs.

 

[NoPace]

In the following pre-season games since then, it looked more and more like a back three. Yesterday night it was pretty much:

Lewandowski
Ribery ------- Pizarro
Bernat Gaudino Rode Höjbjerg
Alaba Martinez Rafael
Starke
​

It looks more and more like Alaba really will be the left sided centerback this season. But it's definitely more of a 343 than a 352. Wide midfielders instead of wingbacks and at least one fullback as the wide centerback in the back three.

What's that in a real game? The following looks pretty terrifying to me, as only Boateng is anything but brilliant on the ball.

Lewandowski
Muller/Ribery ------- Robben/Muller
Bernat Schweinsteiger Thiago Lahm
Alaba Martinez Boateng
Neuer​

 

[Balu]

What's that in a real game? The following looks pretty terrifying to me, as only Boateng is anything but brilliant on the ball.

Lewandowski
Muller/Ribery ------- Robben/Muller
Bernat Schweinsteiger Thiago Lahm
Alaba Martinez Boateng
Neuer​

Lewandowski
Muller/Ribery ------- Robben/Muller
Götze
Thiago ----------- Lahm
Schweinsteiger
Alaba --- Martinez --- Boateng
Neuer


​

Also, Boateng on the ball is a bit underrated. He's not great with long balls if you want to play over the midfield. But he's fantastic with hard and accurate passes down the middle, getting the ball to the midfielders even if they are covered by opponents.

/edit: actually, now that I think of it, it's probably Lahm as the holding midfielder and Schweinsteiger as the right sided one in a diamond.

 

[NoPace]

Lewandowski
Muller/Ribery ------- Robben/Muller
Götze
Thiago ----------- Lahm
Schweinsteiger
Alaba --- Martinez --- Boateng
Neuer


​

Also, Boateng on the ball is a bit underrated. He's not great with long balls if you want to play over the midfield. But he's fantastic with hard and accurate passes down the middle, getting the ball to the midfielders even if they are covered by opponents.

/edit: actually, now that I think of it, it's probably Lahm as the holding midfielder and Schweinsteiger as the right sided one in a diamond.

Nah, Lahm would be the one moving right more often, I think. The first graphic looks right to me, except for the massive amount of trust it places in Gotze, which I'm not sure Pepe has.

 

[Empire]

Really not convinced by Jones/Smalling/Evans. I reckon any top team will have a field day against them.

I would say they are better than the 3 cbs for netherlands and they were defensively solid during the world cup.

 

[Momochiru]

A bit like the following, though Laudrup played different roles during his years at Barca and Stoichkov peaked in the team before Romario joined Barca.

The most beautiful football ever in my opinion, such a wonderful balance between possession and directness, individual skill and collective movement. You really need to look for footage from that team between 91 and 94. The first one that appeared on youtube for me right now, was the 5-0 classico win and you can see the crazy back three in the build up from the back very well. Earlier games with Laudrup and Stoichkov starting are even more beautiful though.

Didn't Stoichkov play on the left?

 

[Sam]

I would say they are better than the 3 cbs for netherlands and they were defensively solid during the world cup.

I think thats a far simplistic way of looking at it. The Dutch played very very definitively during the WC, rarely opening up and mainly trying to hit teams on the break, and the one time they did open up in last period of the game against Costa Rica, they looked all over the shop.

I don't expect us to play as defensively all season (the fans wont accept that), and therefore the back 3 won't have that same level of protection that the Dutch back three had. Plus, I'm pretty sure the Dutch lads Martins Indi and DI Vrij played in a back three for Feyenoord at times, while Jones/Smalling/Evans have absolutely no experience of it.

 

[Devil may care]

LvG can have us playing that sexy 3-4-3 by next season!

 

[Empire]

I think thats a far simplistic way of looking at it. The Dutch played very very definitively during the WC, rarely opening up and mainly trying to hit teams on the break, and the one time they did open up in last period of the game against Costa Rica, they looked all over the shop.

I don't expect us to play as defensively all season (the fans wont accept that), and therefore the back 3 won't have that same level of protection that the Dutch back three had. Plus, I'm pretty sure the Dutch lads Martins Indi and DI Vrij played in a back three for Feyenoord at times, while Jones/Smalling/Evans have absolutely no experience of it.

Did they not have 4 at the back against Costa Rica to finish the game?

I seem to recall that and thinking that's probably why they did not play with 4 at the back.

 

[ChrisG11]

I think thats a far simplistic way of looking at it. The Dutch played very very definitively during the WC, rarely opening up and mainly trying to hit teams on the break, and the one time they did open up in last period of the game against Costa Rica, they looked all over the shop.

I don't expect us to play as defensively all season (the fans wont accept that), and therefore the back 3 won't have that same level of protection that the Dutch back three had. Plus, I'm pretty sure the Dutch lads Martins Indi and DI Vrij played in a back three for Feyenoord at times, while Jones/Smalling/Evans have absolutely no experience of it.

Whilst i agree, i do think we're being a bit too pessimistic regarding Jones, Smalling and Evans. The former and the latter are good on the ball for centre halves, all three are relatively quick and Jones/Smalling in particularly and fantastic at getting tight to their men and pressing high up. The Netherlands defensive setup was quite conservative during the World Cup as you say, which limited the work that Martins Indi, Vlaar and De Vrij had to engage in. However with United, expect us to press a lot higher up the field, which will mean playing a high line. The majority of the time, our defensive line from the back three will be the base for which the midfield press, and they will be the ones winning the ball back. As stated, we've got a good mix of ability in terms of being able to press and being able to recover, which is essential to the system. If executed successfully, the back three won't actually have much more defensive work to engage in than the Netherlands defence; the difference is that if the setup does break down in front of them once in a while, they are left more exposed and have more responsibility than if The Netherlands had the same problems, due to the difference in space in behind.

 

[Eriksen]

Really not convinced by Jones/Smalling/Evans. I reckon any top team will have a field day against them.

I agree, I've pointed out a few times that I don't those three really aren't great. You definitely need a top signing in that area because right now it lacks quality, it has some potential but it's dodgy.

Some people seem to think Evans is one of the best CB's in the league though and that Smalling/Jones have the potential to be better than Chiellini, so I guess if you go by that logic there's no need for new signings.

 

[Kraftwerker]

I agree, I've pointed out a few times that I don't those three really aren't great. You definitely need a top signing in that area because right now it lacks quality, it has some potential but it's dodgy.

Some people seem to think Evans is one of the best CB's in the league though and that Smalling/Jones have the potential to be better than Chiellini, so I guess if you go by that logic there's no need for new signings.

Well there aren't many better. There's a real dearth of centre back talent in the league at the moment.

Evans has at least played and won stuff at the highest level, as well as been a member of a record breaking defence. And he's still relatively young.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I agree, I've pointed out a few times that I don't those three really aren't great. You definitely need a top signing in that area because right now it lacks quality, it has some potential but it's dodgy.

Some people seem to think Evans is one of the best CB's in the league though and that Smalling/Jones have the potential to be better than Chiellini, so I guess if you go by that logic there's no need for new signings.

Evans was arguably the best cb in the league a few years ago when he was a regular starter for us.

Jones and Smalling, on the other hand, have never really been regular starters for us (at centre back anyway), and have been played in numerous positions, which hasn't been particularly good for their growth, in my opinion. This is why i'm baffled when people say they're are not good enough. Give them a season as regular starters then judge them.

 

[Eriksen]

Well there aren't many better. There's a real dearth of centre back talent in the league at the moment.

Evans has at least played and won stuff at the highest level, as well as being a member of a record breaking defence. And he's still relatively young.

He's not one of the best right now. I'm not going to reel off a list because it'll only cause arguments/derail everything but outside of United you'd struggle badly to find a fan who rates him anywhere in the top 5.

 

[Eriksen]

Evans was arguably the best cb in the league a few years ago when he was a regular starter for us.

Jones and Smalling, on the other hand, have never really been regular starters for us (at centre back anyway), and have been played in numerous positions, which hasn't been particularly good for their growth, in my opinion. This is why i'm baffled when people say they're are not good enough. Give them a season as regular starters then judge them.

I agree it hasn't been good for their growth. I also think they have potential, but you still need a major signing in that area for now. Both to use his experience to help Jones/Smalling and add ready quality, a club like United can't just rely on players who might be very good in the future. A Hummels would be brilliant in my view, obviously he's out of the question but someone of his quality or around that ballpark is necessary.

 

[Kraftwerker]

He's not one of the best right now. I'm not going to reel off a list because it'll only cause arguments/derail everything but outside of United you'd struggle badly to find a fan who rates him anywhere in the top 5.

I always hate this weak argument. It's a nice way to dismiss someone's opinion of their own player whilst pretending you have an entire nation on your side of the argument. If we listened to fans of other clubs we'd have written off most of our players over the years. Ronaldo one trick pony, De Gea liability etc.

I'd always trust the opinions of United fans who watch these players game in game out over rival fans who only tend to see things when they become patently obvious and fit with the media narrative of a player.

If Evans isn't in the top 5 now (and he probably isn't due to bouts of injury and struggling for form), he definitely has been at points in the past and has every chance of being there again.

 

[Eriksen]

I always hate this weak argument. It's a nice way to dismiss someone's opinion of their own player whilst pretending you have an entire nation on your side of the argument. If we listened to fans of other clubs we'd have written off most of our players over the years. Ronaldo one trick pony, De Gea liability etc.

I'd always trust the opinions of United fans who watch these players game in game out over rival fans who only tend to see things when they become patently obvious and fit with the media narrative of a player.

If Evans isn't in the top 5 now (and he probably isn't due to bouts of injury and struggling for form), he definitely has been at points in the past and has every chance of being there again.

I've been through the Evans argument over and over again so would rather not do it again. If you rate him that highly then fair enough. I watch United plenty and have never seen anything from Evans that means he is one of the very best in the league. I just rate him as a good defender with no real exceptional attributes, not the main man in the defense of a top team.

 

[ChrisG11]

I've been through the Evans argument over and over again so would rather not do it again. If you rate him that highly then fair enough. I watch United plenty and have never seen anything from Evans that means he is one of the very best in the league. I just rate him as a good defender with no real exceptional attributes, not the main man in the defense of a top team.

Evans best season was 2012/2013, where only Kompany, Nastasic and Koscielny were better than him that year. That's when he was in the top 5 defenders in the league. Fair comment?