They are our best players by a distance, so finding a way to fit them all in is the best choice. And no reason why they can't change? As if somebody would bench a world class striker like one of them two just to play a winger or something like that. Good managers like Van Gaal can be flexible and changes to bring the best out of what he has. Shit managers like Moyes try to shoehorn them into a system that clearly doesn't work.
So the 3-5-2
- Thread starter Ole's_toe_poke
- Start date
All in all, I'd rather opt with the 433, play Mata at #10 and make a decision on Van Persie and Rooney. I don't think we have the right players to utilise wing backs, not out left at least.
It's Louis' call, and I trust him, but I think we could be just as good, if not better, with Januzaj and a player like Di Maria out wide, Rafael and Shaw bombing on past them, and a quality central midfielder partnering Herrera behind Mata.
It's Louis' call, and I trust him, but I think we could be just as good, if not better, with Januzaj and a player like Di Maria out wide, Rafael and Shaw bombing on past them, and a quality central midfielder partnering Herrera behind Mata.
This. Everybody gonna have time with this system. Specially the good players, like Kagawa, Januzaj, Welbeck, etc.
I definitely agree with this. This whole 3-5-2 thingy is basically because the decision to choose between RVP and Rooney is not something LVG wants to make at the present. I personally hate the 3-5-2 system but we'll see what happens when real football begins. Pre season is boring
Also we don't have any quality wingers and playing 3 at the back helps our young CB's.
Basically Mata, Rooney and RVP in their best positions are also amongst the most productive players in the league. Unless we have someone of that level on both sides out wide, it makes sense to go with this as it might not be European title winning or anything but enough to get us amongst the top few of this league.
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i think its not only the mix up of players, also of formations. I's also gonna be a mix up between 4-3-3 and 3-5-2... like Chile or the Netherlands. Van Gaal invented this pretty much, he knows best.
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I know there are many logical reasons behind playing this new formation, it really makes senses (specially the part about having really shitty wingers and investing in quality ones is too expensive for this summer). I just can't shake this feeling of hatred and negativity for this formation that's all. I don't know how else to describe it. Maybe 3-5-2 is a short term solution for this season and in the next transfer windows, when we'll have quality wide men we'll return to something familiar.
Calling it a 3-5-2 rather than a 5-3-2 is a good start to trying to portray it as offensive and fun.
I agree though, it is quite telling when LVG considers United less capable of playing a 4-3-3 than Holland who didn't revert to a 5-3-2 until an injury on Strootman.
A 5-3-2 is different from a 4-3-3 in two ways. You add another defender and you make your wide players more defensive. Two completely defensive tactical changes.
We will have issues when we are up against teams who happily sit back and let us dominate the game. Moyes and Mourinho found out last year just how many points you drop if you are specialized at counter-attacking as a top club.
I have nothing against a 5-3-2 in bigger matches, but we will need something different in 90% of the season we are heavy favorites going in to the matches.
Then we'd probably need to actually play an offensive 3-5-2 with three central defenders and two wingers out wide, or at least one offensive winger. That is Januzaj/Nani rather than Young/Valencia.
Calling it a 3-5-2 rather than a 5-3-2 is a good start to trying to portray it as offensive and fun.
I agree though, it is quite telling when LVG considers United less capable of playing a 4-3-3 than Holland who didn't revert to a 5-3-2 until an injury on Strootman.
A 5-3-2 is different from a 4-3-3 in two ways. You add another defender and you make your wide players more defensive. Two completely defensive tactical changes.
We will have issues when we are up against teams who happily sit back and let us dominate the game. Moyes and Mourinho found out last year just how many points you drop if you are specialized at counter-attacking as a top club.
I have nothing against a 5-3-2 in bigger matches, but we will need something different in 90% of the season we are heavy favorites going in to the matches.
Then we'd probably need to actually play an offensive 3-5-2 with three central defenders and two wingers out wide, or at least one offensive winger. That is Januzaj/Nani rather than Young/Valencia.
We can just go 3-4-3 in that case as well.
I think we've made our fullbacks more attacking than defensive but will require attacking output from them more if teams bunker.
It's also a result of our wide attackers not being good enough, Herrera having no partner other than an injured, aging Carrick and our CB's being promising but nowhere near dominant yet.
But yeah, I think we'll have problems with clever teams that are patient enough to play one up front against our 3 and capitalize on the 9 vs 7 advantage they'll have everywhere else. Look at how Roma started the other day; moving the ball around the back comfortably using the extra men, then hitting a well-timed long ball over the top to a runner. That's what smart teams will do against us.
Also, yeah, I think we'll play a lot of 4-3-3 against weaker teams with one of Rooney or Mata slightly wider than they'd prefer.
I really think the idea here is to secure Champions League football this year, and minimizing the problem areas in our squad (See the post directly above) is a logical way to do that.
Who knows, maybe we'll murder teams as they get all gung-ho and British and we can just hit them on the break like the Dutch did to the Spanish. Liverpool somehow got teams to keep coming at them last year when it made no sense whatsoever, and Mourinho managed to lure teams forward when he was at Real and had Ronaldo and Ozil leading counter attacks. It can be done.
Who knows, maybe we'll murder teams as they get all gung-ho and British and we can just hit them on the break like the Dutch did to the Spanish. Liverpool somehow got teams to keep coming at them last year when it made no sense whatsoever, and Mourinho managed to lure teams forward when he was at Real and had Ronaldo and Ozil leading counter attacks. It can be done.
The change from 352 to 343 is way more difficult than from 433 to 343. The 3-4-3 is usually a midfield diamond with an attacking 3 upfront including 2 wingers/wide forwards. If you can't play 4-3-3 because you lack great wingers, you can't play 3-4-3 either in my opinion. Unless van Gaal buys a new winger or gets the ones at the club to perform on a significantly higher level, I'd say a 4-4-2 dimaond is your best option against teams defending deep. I'm really looking forward to watching United this season, should be interesting to see how van Gaal solves those problems.
Not convinced a 3-5-2 will work especially with our current crop of defenders and midfielders.
Januzaj on one side and Rooney/Mata on the other could work in a 3-4-3.
I think i am talking about 3-4-3 as in the one Van Gaal played vs Costa Rica bringing in Depay for the DM and having 2 man midfield of Sneijder and Wijnaldum with Blind playing LM and Kuyt RM.
So we could play something like -
-------------------Back 3----------------------
Valencia-------Carrick----Herrera----Blind/James/Young(?)
Januzaj----------RVP--------------Rooney
I really hope we play 3-5-2 now to get our players used to that formation but play 4-3-3 once the season starts. We dont have the "specialists" to play with wing backs and I dont like it to be honest.
If we are desperate for all of Rooney/Mata/RvP to start, I'd rather go 4-3-1-2
Dave
Rafael Evans Jones Shaw
Herrera Carrick Cleverley?
Mata
Rooney RvP
Rafael Evans Jones Shaw
Herrera Carrick Cleverley?
Mata
Rooney RvP
I'm not sold on that attacking three. If Rooney works as a wide forward, you could easily play 433 as well and I don't see how that's more effective against a deep sitting defense than the following. You're better off just playing more attacking wingbacks and maybe a less defensive midfield than push Rooney out of position and replace your most creative player in the squad.
---- Back 3 ----
Valencia Carrick Herrera Blind/James
Mata
RVP Rooney
I'd also argue that Costa Rica didn't really sit back in the game against Holland. They played excellent pressing in midfield throughout the tournament and van Gaal looked for a way to get past it and then exploit the space behind their defense, so adding a 2nd great dribbler to the team in Depay was a smart decision. I'm not sure many teams in the Premier League play like Costa Rica, at least few did last season. It's very different from the small team sits deep and tries to attack on the counter approach, the big teams in the Premier League regularly face.
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Not a bad shout. In theory, midfielders like Herrera and our muppet fantasy, Vidal, would be exactly what you're looking for in the outside midfielders. Even Di Maria, another much talked about target. Still, like I said, I hope we eventually turn to 433 and Van Gaal takes a tough decision on Rooney and Robin.
i agree balu. this is also complemented by how they implemented their offside trap. They had 39 offside calls go their way which was evidenced by how disciplined and organized their backline was. This is something you don't really see in the premier league as like you say they weren't sitting deep the whole 90 minutes (at times they were) but sometimes sitting in mid-low block (some yards beyond 18 yard box)
i think that formation would leave us vulnerable in defensive transitions but that's just me. i foresee spacing issues with the players we have
I thought Van Gaal's recent comments made it clear that 4-3-3 was where he wants to end up.
But he also wants a team that has the tactical flexibility to play different formations depending on the occasion
But he also wants a team that has the tactical flexibility to play different formations depending on the occasion
Just to clear up any confusion about this new formation.
We're obviously going to see different formations once the season gets underway. We're playing this one formation exclusively, for now, to give the players a bit of time to get used to a system they've never played before.
We're obviously going to see different formations once the season gets underway. We're playing this one formation exclusively, for now, to give the players a bit of time to get used to a system they've never played before.
I don't think it's true that Dutch managers never used a back 3 before, even though it usually was more a variaton of the 433 than a 352, but I'd argue that was more because fluid attacking football is very difficult to achieve with 2 central strikers upfront. That's the aspect of a 352 I've never seen in a Dutch team before. Cruyff's dream team definitely peaked as a 3-4-3, the Ajax side in the 70's also used it as a plan B sometimes if I'm not mistaken and van Gaal's Ajax team also was more a 3-4-3 than a 4-3-3 with Rijkaard playing a DM role infront of a back 3. At their peak, I'd say that CL winning Ajax side looked something like:
R. de Boer
Overmars --- Litmanen ------- Finidi
Davids ------ Seedorf
Rijkaard
F. de Boer -- Blind ---- Reiziger
van der Sar
However, like I said before, I agree with you about a Dutch team never playing the 532/352 with wingbacks. It's in my opinion quite obvious that van Gaal plans to use it as an option because of the unbalanced squad and not because he sees it as a great formation to build towards. He's surprisingly pragmatic in his approach at the moment, pretty sure that'll change though. He always wanted to win while playing beautiful football and I'd be very surprised if he doesn't try to end his career with another memorable team, not only in terms of trophies but also in terms of playing style. The 532 won't be the formation for that team in my opinion, it has way too many limitations if you want to play beautiful football, which again will lead to the Rooney or van Persie problem at some point in the near future.
It's the sp****** diamond!
possibly the 3-5-2 is only a matter of a season. After a second or third transfer window I feel he could return to a 4-3-3 if he builds a squad according to his own philosophy. Therefore changing the hole youth setup for the demands of a 62 year sounds strange to me. The Reserves, ok, but at any younger stage?
He said the 3-5-2 is necessary to field all the superstars in his first eleven and that this squad is unbalanced and he needs to play that formation to get the best out of that.
He said the 3-5-2 is necessary to field all the superstars in his first eleven and that this squad is unbalanced and he needs to play that formation to get the best out of that.
I disagree with that one. Youre talking as though the roles of the full backs remain the same. They don't, a wingback is far more attacking than a full back, both in starting position and in the role on the pitch. So while you have one more dedicated defender, other players have less defending as a result. That includes your central midfielders too in some circumstances, since a centre back trio can include one playing a bit more sweeper like.
Indeed when teams sit back a 3-5-2 can be very attacking formation. Your wingbacks play as wingers and you don't need a midfielder to collect the ball from the back line - so your attacking line up can include 2 attacking midfielders, 2 wingers, 2 strikers and a number 10. Compared to a 4-4-2 for example, you've basically swapped your full backs for a number 10 and an attacking midfielder.
Wait, what? Wingbacks don't become wingers just because they have more freedom to move forward and how do you have two AMs and a number 10?
Striker Striker
Winger 10 Winger
AM AM
CB CB CB
GK
Are you saying that's still a 3-5-2 ?Winger 10 Winger
AM AM
CB CB CB
GK
You're talking about the relative positions of players in-play vs the starting positions of players. That's two different things. If you take a snapshot at any given moment in a match, the players will probably not line up perfectly in a formation. It doesn't mean that they're not playing 4-4-2/4-3-3/3-5-2 or whatever. It simply highlights that all players have a certain degree of flexibility in their position, and a certain area that they cover. In the case of the wingbacks, if the opposition are on the rack, they can play in the same position and style as wingers. It doesn't make them wingers, but it means they 'play as' wingers.
The point I was making, apparently not clearly enough, is that starting in 3-5-2 allows you to push players into various attacking positions according to how the match goes.
It also means that they don't add as much attacking quality as actual wingers would while you make it sound like they do. You wrote the following:
Which simply isn't true, because you didn't swap the players, you just use defensive players in a more attacking role and that clearly won't give you as much quality in attack as if you actually play attacking players. @Annahnomoss was spot on with his analysis. The 352/532 with wingbacks and 3 centerbacks is a very defensive formation and that doesn't change unless you for example actually play wingers instead of wingbacks. But then we're talking about a 334/343 formation and that really is very different. That's why van Gaal changed to a 433 or a 343/334 at the World Cup by using different players when the team struggled in attack and wasn't able to successfully attack on the counter.
Im a fan of 3-5-2 and I think it suits are squad almost to a tee. We lack quality wingers, but have several good Strikers/AMs, our central midfield is lacking (although Herrera is an excellent addition) and at the back we have 3 good, young CBs who need gametime to develop.
Starting from the back - Nothing needs to be said about DDG.
Jones and Smalling have both been played out of position far too much for the last 2 years, at RB or in Jones case in midfield. In a 3 man back line they can both play alongside Evans in their preferred role. All are young enough to quickly become fully competent in a new system, and in theory they are 3 CBs who would complement each other very well, in terms of both playing style and position (Jones at RCB, Evans at LCB - both very experienced in playing in the wider positions of the pitch when needed)
In the WBs, Rafael if he stays fit is ideal for that role. Shaw on the other hand is not a natural Wingback, but is young enough that there is plenty of room for developing his attacking instincts - which he would probably be having to do anyway, regardless of if he was at FB or WB. Either way, for him and Rafael the presence of the extra CB also takes a bit of pressure off the WBs, which especially for Shaw will be a benefit in his first season.
We are pretty light on backup options in the WB positions, but I personally think Valencia can become excellent in that role - what he lacked in positional discipline playing as RB will be less important when he is expected to be ahead of the back line, and gives him extra space to bomb down the flank.
On the other side, Reece James has looked very promising in preseason and I see no reason why LVG may give him a chance to break into the first team this season - LVG has a history of bringing young players through.
Then we move on to the dreaded central midfield. In a 3-5-2 you still have a 2-man midfield (if we are considering the #10 to be more a part of the attack than the midfield), but the expectation of the midfielders is different in a 3-5-2 to a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2. This is again because of the extra CB in place. In a 4-4-2, or a 4-2-3-1, the CMs are expected to play a deeper, more defensive role, generally speaking, and this has often been our undoing, as Carrick has been well suited to this but we have lacked a decent partner for him.
In a 3-5-2 the CM role is less defensive in nature. Along with the WBs, the CMs are expected to contribute in attack and defence, and this will suit our players far better in my opinion. In previous systems with 2 CBs, we couldnt really play a combination of say, Herrera and Cleverley (I know we didnt have Herrera, just an example of style) due to them not offering enough defensively. We pretty much HAD to play Carrick (or play Fletcher/Fellaini/Cleverley in a holding role) as we needed someone to screen the back four. In 3-5-2 this is no longer the case, and whilst you need CMs rather than pure AMs (such as Mata), you dont really need a dedicated holding player, as long as both CMs are contributing defensively - the likes of Herrera, Cleverley and even Kagawa are well suited to this.
Looking at the attack, again not a lot needs to be said. The 3-5-2 allows us to play RVP, Rooney and Mata, all in their preferred roles, at once. This is pretty much key, and between those three plus support from the WBs and CMs, we should be scoring goals for fun. With 2 striker positions it also allows us to rotate and give more gametime to Welbeck, Hernandez, Wilson and Keane, and we can also rotate Mata, Kagawa and Januzaj in the #10 role.
The downsides of the formation is that we lack cover in the CB position and should probably look to bring someone in, and it limits the gametime of Januzaj. There isnt really any role in the squad for wingers like Nani and Young - hence LVG trying them in different positions, but I doubt they will be utilised often in a 3-5-2. Still I suspect we wont always play this system, and if we do revert to another formation it is useful to have the right personnel in the squad.
Starting from the back - Nothing needs to be said about DDG.
Jones and Smalling have both been played out of position far too much for the last 2 years, at RB or in Jones case in midfield. In a 3 man back line they can both play alongside Evans in their preferred role. All are young enough to quickly become fully competent in a new system, and in theory they are 3 CBs who would complement each other very well, in terms of both playing style and position (Jones at RCB, Evans at LCB - both very experienced in playing in the wider positions of the pitch when needed)
In the WBs, Rafael if he stays fit is ideal for that role. Shaw on the other hand is not a natural Wingback, but is young enough that there is plenty of room for developing his attacking instincts - which he would probably be having to do anyway, regardless of if he was at FB or WB. Either way, for him and Rafael the presence of the extra CB also takes a bit of pressure off the WBs, which especially for Shaw will be a benefit in his first season.
We are pretty light on backup options in the WB positions, but I personally think Valencia can become excellent in that role - what he lacked in positional discipline playing as RB will be less important when he is expected to be ahead of the back line, and gives him extra space to bomb down the flank.
On the other side, Reece James has looked very promising in preseason and I see no reason why LVG may give him a chance to break into the first team this season - LVG has a history of bringing young players through.
Then we move on to the dreaded central midfield. In a 3-5-2 you still have a 2-man midfield (if we are considering the #10 to be more a part of the attack than the midfield), but the expectation of the midfielders is different in a 3-5-2 to a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2. This is again because of the extra CB in place. In a 4-4-2, or a 4-2-3-1, the CMs are expected to play a deeper, more defensive role, generally speaking, and this has often been our undoing, as Carrick has been well suited to this but we have lacked a decent partner for him.
In a 3-5-2 the CM role is less defensive in nature. Along with the WBs, the CMs are expected to contribute in attack and defence, and this will suit our players far better in my opinion. In previous systems with 2 CBs, we couldnt really play a combination of say, Herrera and Cleverley (I know we didnt have Herrera, just an example of style) due to them not offering enough defensively. We pretty much HAD to play Carrick (or play Fletcher/Fellaini/Cleverley in a holding role) as we needed someone to screen the back four. In 3-5-2 this is no longer the case, and whilst you need CMs rather than pure AMs (such as Mata), you dont really need a dedicated holding player, as long as both CMs are contributing defensively - the likes of Herrera, Cleverley and even Kagawa are well suited to this.
Looking at the attack, again not a lot needs to be said. The 3-5-2 allows us to play RVP, Rooney and Mata, all in their preferred roles, at once. This is pretty much key, and between those three plus support from the WBs and CMs, we should be scoring goals for fun. With 2 striker positions it also allows us to rotate and give more gametime to Welbeck, Hernandez, Wilson and Keane, and we can also rotate Mata, Kagawa and Januzaj in the #10 role.
The downsides of the formation is that we lack cover in the CB position and should probably look to bring someone in, and it limits the gametime of Januzaj. There isnt really any role in the squad for wingers like Nani and Young - hence LVG trying them in different positions, but I doubt they will be utilised often in a 3-5-2. Still I suspect we wont always play this system, and if we do revert to another formation it is useful to have the right personnel in the squad.
Which is what Van Gaal's mainly being doing with United.
Reasons for 352
- reduce deficiencies of weak midfield
- optimum productivity of strong attack
Now midfield area can be solved through transfers, but hadn't been solved yet. The personals in attack are all match winners and dropping them to accommodate lesser productive players (wingers) is not beneficial at all.
Note: The 3 most productive players are all specialist
Cons of 352
- Affects the defence
Defence is hit hardest due to lack of numbers (CB) and change in roles (LWB). This can be solved through transfers and training respectively.
What I got from LVG interview with MUTV was that:
- 352 will be used through out the tour to familiarize the players as its new to them
- 352 is one of the system to be used this season along with 442 and 433
- CM addition and/or injury to a key player in attack will result in change of system
- less playing time to unproductive players, either adapt or perish
Conclusion
- 352 emphasises out potent attack while eliminates the weaknesses (wingers)
- Any 2 man partnership of current CBs is weak due to lack of leaders, 3 man CB provides extra support to consolidate the defence
- 352 adds another dimension to our play
- Wing back position has to be tuned, current personals have the necessary qualities
- we'll likely be more flexible in our system through out the season as a sole 352 will expose the currently weak wingback positions
- reduce deficiencies of weak midfield
- optimum productivity of strong attack
Now midfield area can be solved through transfers, but hadn't been solved yet. The personals in attack are all match winners and dropping them to accommodate lesser productive players (wingers) is not beneficial at all.
Note: The 3 most productive players are all specialist
Cons of 352
- Affects the defence
Defence is hit hardest due to lack of numbers (CB) and change in roles (LWB). This can be solved through transfers and training respectively.
What I got from LVG interview with MUTV was that:
- 352 will be used through out the tour to familiarize the players as its new to them
- 352 is one of the system to be used this season along with 442 and 433
- CM addition and/or injury to a key player in attack will result in change of system
- less playing time to unproductive players, either adapt or perish
Conclusion
- 352 emphasises out potent attack while eliminates the weaknesses (wingers)
- Any 2 man partnership of current CBs is weak due to lack of leaders, 3 man CB provides extra support to consolidate the defence
- 352 adds another dimension to our play
- Wing back position has to be tuned, current personals have the necessary qualities
- we'll likely be more flexible in our system through out the season as a sole 352 will expose the currently weak wingback positions
Fair point, but from what I've seen he's playing the constantly criticised 'defensive wingers' from last season as wingbacks, not as actual wingers. Using Valencia or Young as a right wingback won't change the naturally defensive set-up of the 352 in my opinion and I can't see how they could be the weapon to open up a well organised deep sitting defensive set-up, just like Kuyt as right wingback for Holland didn't change the system while bringing in Depay as an actual left winger did. But I guess we have to wait and find out.
Too much fuss is being made about the formation. LvG wants to try out 352 during the tour and will most likely go along with it for the actual season. 433 will be used when he feels that the main formation isnt working. LvG likes to tinker with formations and I believe he did well with Holland in the WC with that so I see no issues at all. Each formation has its strengths and weaknesses but whats more important for him is the philosophy stays the same throughout. Hes trying to maximize the strengths of the players he as but will adjust when needed.
To be honest you're just playing the 'its not a 3-5-2 its actually a 3-4-1-2' game here, which you can continue ad absurdum. At that point you're talking about relatively minor positional changes on the pitch. If you prefer if I said '3-5-2 is not that defensive because it allows you to move quickly into a 3-3-4 formation' then consider it said.
With regards to swapping full backs for an AM/no. 10, again, if you prefer, look at it as swapping your 2 wingers for an AM and a no. 10 and pushing your full backs into the positions wingers normally play. if that suits, go for it. Either way, defensive doesn't really cover it.
WRT Holland at the World Cup, looking at a single team in a knockout tournament and saying that 3-5-2 is defensive because that team was is reductive. I'm sure we can both find plenty of teams who played 4-4-2 in an incredibly defensive way, or 4-2-3-1 or any other common formation. I would rather point to LVG's entire career, where attacking football through possession has been the primary philosophy, and ask whether he's likely to change it now, having just arrived at a club that has the same feeling about attacking. Not to mention one where any problems he has can (within reason) be solved in the transfer market, unlike Holland where he has to make do with what he has.
Something like in the picture below. I've no idea how to call that though. Alaba was almost a box to box centerback in most games. But it's too early to draw conclusions from it with half the team still on vacation after the World Cup. If we really continue to play some sort of back 3, I expect it to be very different from van Gaal's ideas though. Probably with at least 1 winger instead of a wingback and one of the 3 central defenders will be Alaba.
Still looks like a 4-1-4-1 but of course with a lot of movement. Will be interesting to see if he will keep the box to box CB going once the season starts or if he just did it because Alaba was playing as a CB. Do you think Boateng could play a similar role even in the competitive games?
Something like in the picture below. I've no idea how to call that though. Alaba was almost a box to box centerback in most games. But it's too early to draw conclusions from it with half the team still on vacation after the World Cup. If we really continue to play some sort of back 3, I expect it to be very different from van Gaal's ideas though. Probably with at least 1 winger instead of a wingback and one of the 3 central defenders will be Alaba.
A little off topic, but how is Højberg rated by the club and fans? Really impressed me in his first start for the national team. Wish United had someone like hiim
He's rated and loved already and most expect him to get a lot more playing team in the first team this season. He's absolutely fantastic and his terrific performance in the cup final against Dortmund last season should give him a lot of confidence for this year. He definitely has a future at the club.