was gonna say...most top CB's tend to peak around 28-32, there's no reason you can't improve at the age of 26, where he 30+ already then sure you can write him off but at 26? mad imo.
So the 3-5-2
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was gonna say...most top CB's tend to peak around 28-32, there's no reason you can't improve at the age of 26, where he 30+ already then sure you can write him off but at 26? mad imo.
No system is 100% perfect. I think when we have a more established back three (Smalling, Evans, Jones) we will be less susceptible. Remember the players have only been playing this system for <1 month, and it is always a potential problem when you play a high line.
That's right, add to that, Smalling and Jones are very fast, as well as all of our wingbacks.
Yong n lernin Michael Keane aside, the back 3 were immense. Jones was imperious at times, and Evans was superb before coming off - didn't give them a sniff. Blackett can hold his head up high too.
Very encouraging signs. Still need one more for the position though.
Very encouraging signs. Still need one more for the position though.
Right, but the CB's are Evans, Smalling and Jones, which is one good but not expansive passer in Evans, one probably below-average one in Smalling and an average one who can carry the ball forward into spaces better than most in Jones. You've still got 3 players who can basically be allowed the ball without hurting us. There's a reason most teams playing 3 at the back successfully have had a top passer of the ball who can't be ignored or he'll hit someone with a long pass over the top or generally distribute well enough to improve the attack, like De Boer, Koeman, Rafa Marquez or a type like that.
We will play teams this year who sit 10 men behind the ball and give our center backs time on the ball, and they'll have one less option than normal going forward, since there will be another one of them along side. That can be alleviated a bit by having the 2 wider ones spread very wide in possession into almost traditional fullback areas, which is partly why LVG is presumably looking for a left-footer.
It just worries me that the top teams like Bayern, Madrid and Barca all will be fielding 9-10 outfield players who are great on the ball and we'll be closer to 7 or 8.
The central defenders are doing better with these situations, though. They track the ball better than they did before, and they read the situations better than they did in the past as well. With each passing game, our central defenders look more settled in their roles, and van Gaal would rather have us face long balls than the team moving the ball on the ground towards our goal.
Why does that worry you at all? They are all foreign teams and we aren't in the Champions League. Evans is actually a very good passer when given space and Jones is also comfortable in possession, there's no qualms there. Against top teams you've basically answered your own question of how we'll adapt. It's also worth noting if we are keeping the ball for large periods, these teams won't have the ability to keep such high concentration levels/fitness levels and gaps will start to appear frequently, where we have the quality further up the field to take advantage.
Deep block tactics won't be an issue, and it's not as if we can't change tactics either.
Not sure why when you post something on here people automatically jump to the defensive (excuse the pun). Not suggesting its perfect just saying its cause us a problem on tour which it as.....
In an ideal world LVG would probably like to be playing 433 but we just don't have the quality of players atm to be as successful with that system than the 352, it hides our weakness with this system (like it did with Holland at the WC) and also LVG's philosophy won't change no matter what formation we play. The manager is getting the best out of what we have currently, and i can't say i disagree.
You seem the be the one on the defensive mate, I was just saying that its a new system with some inexperienced players.
Right now it does work very well. The problem is how will it work in the long-term and especially with more of a typical british teams. I mean you look at last years Liverpool, they also started with 3-5-2, but were pretty much forced to drop it and go with 4 defenders once again.
With LVG we at least do have a manager that can shift formation rather quickly, i mean he learned United to play a very decent 3-5-2 in the matters of weeks, surely he will be able to rearrange our formation mid season if a need will arise.
With LVG we at least do have a manager that can shift formation rather quickly, i mean he learned United to play a very decent 3-5-2 in the matters of weeks, surely he will be able to rearrange our formation mid season if a need will arise.
I don't think it's about the team lacking quality or hiding a weakness. There is plenty of quality in this squad. It just so happens that it is best suited to a 3-5-2 system, as it allows us to play our best players in their best roles whilst maintaining a balanced side.
I think it's a positive change which should not be framed negatively. It's about using the players properly.
What's good is that when we do cross there is a purpose of doing it. Players are looking up to see if there is a target or an area for a team mate to exploit as opposed to the Moyes era where it was hoofball, "shove it in the mixer" tactics. To an extent even the last season of Ferguson where we used to get the ball wide early and try and get the ball into dangerous areas quickly as opposed to taking the best option.
Fletcher was class tonight. He controlled the game around him and essentially did the Modric role better than the man himself.
Fletcher was class tonight. He controlled the game around him and essentially did the Modric role better than the man himself.
Yeah i'am not saying we're lacking quality, but most teams have a weakness, however small that may be. Ours is in the Midfield and center half positions, this system negates our problems in those areas to an extent. We have an extra CB, who'll get the game time we all want them have , plus an extra man in midfield.
I agree with with your last point, it's certainly a positive move going foward. It's a smart play from LVG, he's getting the best outa our best players (RVP, Rooney and Mata) into a system that works for them and the team, and keeping us sound defensively.
I am.
The part about him being good is subjective but the point about Rio not getting rated as a United defender is true. I know because it used to piss me off that he wasnt highly rated by non United fans. It wasnt until Vidic arrived and we had a settled back 4 that Rio started to get praised.
I don't remember a time when Rio wasn't rated pretty damn highly, he did move for a massive fee after all and was always considered a very good defender. Maybe he started being considered one of the very best after Vidic arrived but he was never rated around the same as Evans is right now.
It's not really subjective, Rio is one of the best defenders of the PL era and on a different level to Evans even if you are a massive fan.
I personally think that Evra would have thrived in this system. Less defensive responsibility with the 3 CBs and could help in attack. There were times last season when he was one of our more creative attacking players, and could continue to do that in this formation.
Would have liked to see him here still but unfortunately he's moved on.
Would have liked to see him here still but unfortunately he's moved on.
It's been great.
One small criticism is that we still pass around teams a tad too much. Our number 10, and Herrera too, should be seeing more of the ball further up the pitch.
One small criticism is that we still pass around teams a tad too much. Our number 10, and Herrera too, should be seeing more of the ball further up the pitch.
how do you mean? it led to the first goal did it not?
I actually mean the word around almost literally. In the sense, that we could go through the likes of mata and herrera even more. Despite so many positives they seemingly see the ball far far lesser than our wingbacks.
Don't you understand. We don't play tiki taka, running like a donkey to the touch line and hoofing it into the box is the United way.
Some people are so hopeless, all one can do is laugh.
That first goal was incredible play. Give me that tiki taka passing and a goal scored from it anytime of the day coming season.
The only problem with this new system is that it doesn't have a Robben. Not in terms of quality, but because there is no ball-carrying dribbler who can be direct with it and commit people, assist and also score goals.
But obviously these players are incredibly rare and expensive.
But obviously these players are incredibly rare and expensive.
We have smashley young
Wait for Januzaj to come back.
Yep. Alexis Sánchez would've been useful for that. I'd say that's more of a flaw with the squad composition than a flaw with the system though. I'm sure we'll see Januzaj play up front and offer a lot of those qualities though and playing up front in this system could easily get the best out of him. Playing on the right side of a "front two" in this 352 is essentially playing on the right side of a three-man attack, you just have a higher starting position and more freedom/responsibility to roam. Perfect for Januzaj. For me, the system allows our best players to play at one time in their best positions and it minimises the flaws of our weakest players.
- Mata is now in a position where he can score and create at will and he's no longer that (small) defensive liability out wide. Rooney's got a clearly defined role up front which will quite possibly see him have his best ever scoring season and in doing so he would become the all-time top goalscorer for us before he even turns 30. Van Persie's now got plenty of support in central areas and more creativity behind him than he's had since joining the club so providing he stays fit he'll easily get 25+ goals again. It's worth noting that he actually had a better scoring rate in all competitions last season than in his first, he was just injured too often.
- Valencia and Young's defensive contribution has always been a level above your typical winger and they do provide support for the midfield and retain the ball reasonably well, but the problem in the last two seasons' was that was all they were doing and that wasn't enough. As a wingback that is enough. They still of course need to provide some attacking threat but there's now a lot less responsibility on them being our main creators (which often was the case with Valencia no matter how poor he was playing). Their main role is to provide defensive cover, support the midfield in retaining the ball and provide a consistent source of width. That's one of our biggest issues solved.
- Our midfield two was often overrun and overburdened to the extent that they weren't able to get forward often enough to influence the play in the final third but they were also outnumbered by the opposition when on the counter. With another centre back behind them they'll have more licence to get forward and support the attack, safe in the knowledge that there's sufficient cover in the centre when they do. Without a designated defensive midfielder we really need that bit of added assurance at the back because our centre backs were exposed far too easily in the last couple of years and with a young backline you're asking for trouble there.
- Jones, Smalling and Evans are all ready to play consistently in their best positions and flourish and this is the only possible way for that to happen. Yes we have injuries at the back but one of the three replacing one when he gets injured and then being moved back out to right back post-injury or going back to the bench is doing nothing for their development. All three are good enough for us as long-term starters IMO so I'd love to see them firmly establish themselves this season. It also removes any possibility of Smalling/Jones playing anywhere other than centre back which is great news all round. This will be the season Jones really becomes the leader in the defence and gets plaudits from around the country, I reckon. It'll definitely give Evans and Jones the licence to go on marauding runs forward more often too which should see Evans get more recognition as a ball-playing defender as he's found creating something in the opposition third in the highlights. Van Gaal does seem to love his left-footers though and Blackett has shown more composure and better distribution than any of our defenders in pre-season.
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If everyone is fit, do you see him play much ?
I see him used as much as Depay was in the WC as a attacking sub or a change up option from the start to go more attacking, plus backup to Mata and also 4th/5th choice striker option.
He is good enough to force his way ahead of that as well, if he keeps progressing over the season.
@Brwned yeah, it's definitely a weakness in the squad. Januzaj has those qualities but I guess we'll have to see if he can handle the pressure or dislodge one of Rooney/Van Persie in the top two.
Great post Brwned. I was sceptical at first that we'd adapt to this system but it more and more looks tailor-made for us. I'm just hoping it transfers well to the rough and tumble of the Premier League. The portents are good so far.
Out of interest, where did you get those RvP goals per game stats?
Excellent post and also agree about Rooney. It's only pre-season but it looks van Gaal has found way to fit Rooney, Mata and RvP into a formation perfectly. If three of them click, then they're the best attacking force in PL.
Yep, that would be one of the main concerns for me. I'm content that this setup suits us best and gets the most out of our most important players but whether it's actually the best setup to play against our regular opposition is another thing. The other concern is still that lack of pace and ball-carrying ability. It really is a fundamental issue in our team and as much as I love Mata, RvP and Rooney, I do worry that the lack of pace is going to prevent them from being a truly devastating trio.
The RvP stat was just from a quick glance at Wikipedia but it seems they included the charity shield in his all competitions record. In terms of goals per minute they're pretty much identical - a goal every 123 minutes in his first season, a goal every 125 minutes in his second.
Yeah, the pace thing is an issue for me too. I know we'll have plenty of pace from full-back but that's not enough on the break.
We'll have it off the bench in the form of Januzaj, Kagawa and Welbeck, but I hope it doesn't manifest itself as an issue in the starting 11.
I've just got a nagging feeling that the system would be more suited to having a Reus or Robben in one of the two up top positions. The jury's definitely still out on the Rooney/Van Persie combo up front.
For me Van Gaal's first big test is going to be will be bring RVP back in ahead of Welbeck or Januzaj who would give front 3 a lot more balance? Will Rooney get dropped? Hard to say really. The Dutch team was slow outside of Robben but he was critical to their system, that said I do think our defence and midfield offer a heck of lot more than Holland's. RVP coming back late is blessing in disguise IMO, perhaps the front 3 is why Van Gaal has put Shaw on a special training regime and is seemingly keen to play so many wingers at wing-back. I think Van Gaal wants us to offer more from the wide areas than the Dutch team that was pretty much reliant on Robben to create space. With RVP, Mata and Rooney in the middle we have a potentially immense front 3 technically (providing Rooney is on form) and the get out ball will be out wide, for Holland Robben was the get out ball period.
If we can get Shaw and Rafael fit and healthy I think they'll be critical to our play and Van Gaal intimated as much when he said that the wing-back's are the specialists in this team. I can see what Van Gaal is saying about squad imbalance however, Mata, Kagawa and RVP are all great but they were never bought with a specific setup in mind. I think Hernandez is the odd one out with Welbeck, Januzaj, Kagawa potentially being the backup front 3. Luckily Van Gaal is pragmatic and doesn't shy away from big decisions. I think we need two defenders and another midfielder if we persist with this formation, if we are looking long term at a 4-3-3 we need a winger. All that said the biggest and most important thing Van Gaal has done is get us to play at our tempo, moving the ball quickly is absolutely critical to how we play best and we've gotten far too ponderous over recent years. Switching the ball and crossing is still apparent but the pace of our play is better and so is our decision making.
If we can get Shaw and Rafael fit and healthy I think they'll be critical to our play and Van Gaal intimated as much when he said that the wing-back's are the specialists in this team. I can see what Van Gaal is saying about squad imbalance however, Mata, Kagawa and RVP are all great but they were never bought with a specific setup in mind. I think Hernandez is the odd one out with Welbeck, Januzaj, Kagawa potentially being the backup front 3. Luckily Van Gaal is pragmatic and doesn't shy away from big decisions. I think we need two defenders and another midfielder if we persist with this formation, if we are looking long term at a 4-3-3 we need a winger. All that said the biggest and most important thing Van Gaal has done is get us to play at our tempo, moving the ball quickly is absolutely critical to how we play best and we've gotten far too ponderous over recent years. Switching the ball and crossing is still apparent but the pace of our play is better and so is our decision making.
Yep, that's exactly my point. A formation is just a formation, but it's the system that counts. Playing a 3-5-2 doesn't mean that your three centre-backs all have to remain in a centre-back position. It's why I don't understand citing three centre-backs for us as an issue - when playing against one centre-forward - because Van Gaal has them playing much more differently. With the game having players like Iniesta, Silva, Ozil, etc. it makes sense to have two of your centre-backs step out and mark the attacking players. It's why Jonathan Wilson's point in this video doesn't take into consideration the current nature of a lot of attacking players in modern football. Interestingly, he also wrote this article about the 3-5-2 in 2012.
Do people forget some of the classic counter attacking goals we scored vs Arsenal when including Rooney in our "not so pacey" front 3? Even Park was involved in the one Ronaldo scored and he's not faster than Mata. Then you consider the likes of Young, Valencia, Shaw, Rafael; all very fast players down the sides. RvP isn't exactly slow either, but his job will be to stay on the last man and will be further up the pitch anyway.
I think we're trying to find issues when they're not particularly there. We're perfectly equipped to counter when needs as well as keep possession and work openings.
I think we're trying to find issues when they're not particularly there. We're perfectly equipped to counter when needs as well as keep possession and work openings.
But the difference is that we had Ronaldo who could carry the ball at pace and after that we had Nani in his peak against Arsenal. Rooney can get up the pitch fine but he nor anyone else in the squad does it with the ball bar the off flash from Valencia/Nani which could be an issue as if the passing is off or the other team pushes up it could be difficult to create anything as it'll all get too congested centrally.
Hopefully it's not an issue but I think, particularly with Rooney/RVP leading the line it could be, although hopefully only in a few games.
I wonder when everyone is fit will it be Young + Valencia as the wingbacks or Shaw + Rafael
Whoever is in the best form or suits the opposition.
It's the speed of thought that creates incisive counter attacks, not how fast people can run. Well, it is to an extent, but as i say, none of our attackers are particularly slow. We put some great moves together last year against Leverkusen and that was without Ronaldo and Nani.
Your missing the point with this pace issue though. Ronaldo offered something else in that front 3, while at this point all of Mata, RVP and Rooney are quite one-paced. Not exactly slow, but they will not carry the ball like Ronaldo used to do for us. You don't need all of your players to be particulary quick and willing to make runs, but if you have no-one who does this kind of stuff, then it might be an issue. I still think we might be better with Welbeck out there. Januzaj will also be useful IMO.