I find it strange that you've been through the argument over and over.
Does it really bother you that much that people who have probably watched him more than you rate him slightly higher than you do?
So the 3-5-2
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I find it strange that you've been through the argument over and over.
Does it really bother you that much that people who have probably watched him more than you rate him slightly higher than you do?
Vertonghen? He was in the team of the year and probably the best CB that year. Ferdinand also made it from United.
It cropped up when people have said Evans is superior to Vertonghen and I had a discussion about it, so no it isn't that strange. It doesn't bother me, it just surprises me is all from what I've seen of him.
It wasn't until about 08 that opposition fans started to really rate Rio,6 years after we bought him. Evans will get his time to shine now, im sure he will too.
Evans is 26, he'd had plenty of time to shine.
I don't like the 3-5-2, it's one less footballer for me. I think he is playing it because we are not a full squad yet and we have not signed the players we have planed. We will probably see it again this season, but I hope that's just for tactical reasons and difficult games.
Rio made TOTY but i was a bigger fan of Evans that year. I remember Rio having quite a poor start to the season which were the first real signs that he may not be cut out for the highest level any more. Had a good 2nd half but overall i feel Evans performed better for us. Admittedly i forgot about Vertonghen.
Ah I see, it was a 'my player's better than your player' argument. That explains it.
The worst thing about those arguments is that they tend to entrench a very negative opinion of the opposing player in the fan's mind.
See the Ronaldo vs. Messi threads, where fans of each player denigrate the other's abilities and achievements to absurd levels.
I like Evans, he's a good little player. But I don't see him becoming a real top top centre back. He has to many weaknesses in his game, that can be quite easily exploited (mainly that he's quite easy to bully physically and also quite weak in the air). I'd be more then happy to see him as someone else's foil, a second in command if you will, but I think he needs to be partnered with someone like a Vidic, who will be able to cover Evans' weaknesses. And then vice versa.
Yeah, as much as it makes sense with our squad strengths and weaknesses right now, it's hard to get past the 2 basic things that:
1) It's one less non-CB on the pitch, and for a team trying to win the league and get out of their CL group every year, you generally need to be more positive in terms of having players who are positive on the ball.
2) When we play a team with one up front they'll outnumber us 9 to 7 elsewhere and that can make them harder to break down. This was illustrated with the Dutch in the WC at times
I guess we could alleviate the issue by signing someone like Kroos, Verrati or Pirlo to play DM, and then we're still fielding 7 "footballers".
At 26 he is like a baby CB, his career is just beginning.
The key is to have a ball playing centre-half who can come out from the defence and dictate play from the back in what would be a holding DM position.
Hence the chasing of Hummels and Vermaelen.
How'd you work that out? When we're not trying to counter attack when we've won the ball, we will be playing the ball across the pitch in an attempt to work openings; where the CB's will be used in possession as much as anyone. Such a simplistic way of looking at things, as if our defenders just sit and twiddle their thumbs waiting for the next attack when we're in possession.
I recall Louis van Gaal stating something like "most coaches want 4 players to cover the last line but I'm one of the few that think 3 players is enough".
I think he means as far as getting hit on the counter goes, I would not be surprised if the 6 & 8 are actually quite offensive once we get the hang of the system and I think having 3 cbs gives them the license to be.
This will allow Mata to push up as we attack and RVP / Rooney to roam into what should be a fair amount of space.
I dont know though, we will see.
I haven't watched too many teams that play 3-5-2 regularly, so I have a question for caftards who are tacticians: how does this formation fare against teams that park the bus?
It's no different to any other formation, you can play it offensively or defensively. If you choose to push high, commit the wing backs and play with a quick tempo then it's fine at breaking down defensive sides.
Like any system the way it's implemented and the quality of the players is more important that the formation itself.
I was fascinated to see Evans going up the left side (Roma I think, he was on the left of the back 3 anyway) all the way into the Roma half to play a short pass.
If you push up the two wide CBs like that it can be even more offensive than something like a 4231.
Its not the formation that solves the park the bus question, its the system of play.
I don't like this formation. Especially if you think that eventually in this system Shaw will be the left wing back. He will be good and all and can ping a good cross in, but he is a defender, I can't count him as an attacking player.
For RWB, we can have young, valencia or rafael. I did not want the first two of those in our starting line up. There is hope for Rafael getting good in the RWB position though. He is a good attacking option as a part of a back four. I don't see any "class" RWB type players in the market.
So basically, if we continue this formation, we will have RVP, Rooney, Mata, two CMS and 5 defenders. I feel we will still miss width in our attack.
I sincerely hope that Van Gaal brings in his defenders, one and CM and a winger(that he thinks is needed for any other formation) and then tries to play a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1
For RWB, we can have young, valencia or rafael. I did not want the first two of those in our starting line up. There is hope for Rafael getting good in the RWB position though. He is a good attacking option as a part of a back four. I don't see any "class" RWB type players in the market.
So basically, if we continue this formation, we will have RVP, Rooney, Mata, two CMS and 5 defenders. I feel we will still miss width in our attack.
I sincerely hope that Van Gaal brings in his defenders, one and CM and a winger(that he thinks is needed for any other formation) and then tries to play a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1
I think it's the perfect formation to mask our weaknesses. The extra body in central defense should help make up for the lack in quality at centre back. Having an extra defender covering should lessen the burden and isolation on the midfield two. And it kills the dependency on our wingers who have been rubbish for awhile now. And it gives us the chance to play two strikers AND a number 10, both positions we have a huge amount of quality in.
Given the above, I think it's pretty much the best choice Van Gaal could have made.
It's not the ideal formation if you want to be the best and most dominant side around I reckon, but given our squad and the dip in form of some of it's players, I think it's spot on.
Given the above, I think it's pretty much the best choice Van Gaal could have made.
It's not the ideal formation if you want to be the best and most dominant side around I reckon, but given our squad and the dip in form of some of it's players, I think it's spot on.
You don't want the likes of Young or Valencia to start but you want lots of width?
Also, how can we lack width with wingbacks? We'll have three central defenders and two central midfielders between them. They're obviously not going to drift in.
Overall it's a defensive formation which relies on 3 forwards to create and score goals. As others have said, it's a pragmatic way to get the best out of the current personnel. On paper, the starting XI lacks quality compared to recent United teams, so the hope is that improved structure and teamwork will make up for that. The Inter game might foreshadow a frequent frustration this season: controlling the game and looking comfortable but not being able to score.
Personally I think 532 makes more sense as a name, so you don't get the idea there are actually 5 midfielders.
In the 3-5-2 formation the WBs are the players who must provide an extra option and create numerical advantage on the pitch. They are probably the two most essential players in a rather rigid formation.
If you consider your team inferior and have decided to sit back and give possesion to the opponent, then you order the WBs to play deeper and help the back three maintain a narrow defensive line so they don't have to leave their box. That's when you call it 5-3-2.
If you expect to dominate possession and be in the final third most of the time, you order the WBs to move up more often. That was the deal with Martinez and Everton last season. When facing inferior teams both Baines and Coleman where in the attacking third every time Everton had the ball. With one DM staying deeper for cover, it pretty much looked like a 3-3-4 on the pitch. Anyway, that's why LvG tries Young and other natural wingers as wing backs.
But most of the 90 minutes a team starts pressing in the middle of the pitch to regain possession and chooses to build attacking moves from behind through short passing and possession football (at least nowadays). So the WBs spend most of their time in the middle of the pitch trying to provide options in both occasions. So yes, it's really a 3-5-2.
In a similar way a 4-2-3-1 may look more like like a 4-5-1 with two defensive wingers who can't cut inside or like a 4-4-2 with a winger like Robben and a second striker like Rooney in the AM role.
But i have to say i agree on the superiority of the 4-3-3. With the options of different roles it provides for the left and right (inside) CMs and both wingers it's more fluid and flexible than 3-5-2, it provides a great number of tactical variations and allows better and safer cover of all spaces on the pitch.
Rigidity comes from a lack of creative thinking and a one dimensional approach to systems of play. There are a bunch of different ways to play if you are set up as 3-5-2. You dont have to use wing backs to provide cover out wide for the back 3. It is possible to use the 2 wide midfielders for mostly attacking duties and not have them very involved in defensive duties. This is all determined by your system, you recovery runs, your angles of movement of certain players during certain moments.
Of course the 3-5-2 gives you more than one options regarding tactics but, in general, it is a formation which aims to dominate the central areas of the pitch and "demands", much like the 4-4-2 diamond, the midfielders to keep their positions at all time. If the compact midfield breaks these formations become very vulnerable. As i said in the previous post the 4-3-3 provides better cover of the pitch and gives a variety of options both in central and wide areas. This doesn't mean that 3-5-2 can't work for us.
The tactics you mentioned refer more to a 3-4-3 tactic which is analyzed above in this thread. I posted the exact same system of play you mention to explain how Cruyff's 3-4-3 worked. It is a very difficult tactic to teach and can lead to both great and catastrophic results. Cruyff's Barcelona won the La Liga and the CL with it but Cruff's Ajax failed to win a single Dutch League even when they managed to score 120 goals in a single season.
No, what i am talking about is how to play using 3-5-2 where the wide players are not the ones meant to provide the 1st line of cover for defending the wide areas. The point is that there are multiple ways to do certain things.
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And Rio was 28/29 when he started to really get rated amongst non United fans. You see my point..
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I think, in our case, going 3-5-2 might be an offensive approach. Obviously we play with 2 strikers and no.10 (our strongest positions), but also our midfielders don’t need to sit deep during the entire game, as in 4-2-3-1.
Also, the way we use wingbacks will be crucial and will determine whether we stick to this system for longer.
Against tougher opponents they can sit deep, covering space at the back and occasionally going forward- one at a time, of course.
Against weaker sides who tend to sit back, we will use them as old fashioned wingers (pretty much what Valencia is doing all the time). To be honest I think this might be a very good way to use Shaw and Rafael. I have to worries about their link-up play, If they can be taught when to make runs then this system will be very good for us.
I see it as a very fluid system, with only wingbacks staying wide, rigid.
The thing I like the most in this system is that it doesn’t rely on wingers as main offensive force, which is a blessing for us.
Really looking forward to see it in the Premier League.
Also, the way we use wingbacks will be crucial and will determine whether we stick to this system for longer.
Against tougher opponents they can sit deep, covering space at the back and occasionally going forward- one at a time, of course.
Against weaker sides who tend to sit back, we will use them as old fashioned wingers (pretty much what Valencia is doing all the time). To be honest I think this might be a very good way to use Shaw and Rafael. I have to worries about their link-up play, If they can be taught when to make runs then this system will be very good for us.
I see it as a very fluid system, with only wingbacks staying wide, rigid.
The thing I like the most in this system is that it doesn’t rely on wingers as main offensive force, which is a blessing for us.
Really looking forward to see it in the Premier League.
Really like it. Seems to have given us more options with the players we already have and has equally exposed the players we clearly dont need for this system. Does concern me about the ball over the top, I know its early days but its caused us problems in most of the games to date. We really need a defensive CM and CB. If we can sign some quality in those positions, we'll be very hard to beat.....
Jonathan Wilson says three centre-backs against one centre-forward is inefficient, which is true on one occasion only. He hasn't looked at the possibility of two centre-backs stepping out of defence to track midfielders/attackers, which makes it far from inefficient. I'm surprised many have subscribed to this view, and not referenced Van Gaal's Holland. In this regard (centre-backs moving to midfield), our centre-backs need to improve quickly. There was a bit of confusion against Inter Milan - who marks who. However, the system Van Gaal has us playing is working well, and we have improved - tactically - since the LA Galaxy game
Jonathan Wilson is talking bollocks.
Our 3-5-2 it's actually more of a 3-4-1-2. I love it and together with the right sorts of players we can easily convert to 3-4-3 or 4-3-3, depending on results and opposition.
Firstly we use our most creative players as effective as possible. We give every player freedom to shine inside their area and when we lose or win possession our players instantly knows where to run. That's a huge advantage from least season. Another good thing is that we can use many of our players versatility, for example Jones, Herrera and Rooney. Both Smalling and Evans are weak against strong forwards, with 3 CB we eliminate this weakness. Our midfielders except Herrera lack first touch and technique to beat their opponent in a man against man situation, with this system they don't have to face this problem when both Rooney and Mata are their nearest forward option. That makes them more secure to keep possession and play safe until they find a good chance to involve our forward players.
In defense our wing backs can concentrate on pushing their opponent players outside the penalty area, they don't have to challenge with late tackles or be the last defender against skillful forwards. When going forward they often receive the ball with full control of the pitch, don't have to worry about players behind their back and if they lose the ball it's no instant harm done.
The best part is our offensive. Finally Rooney, Mata and Rvp can play together in preferred roles. This shall not be underestimated.
I expect Ander Herrera to be our key player, with or without the ball. He creates spaces with his intelligent movement and when he receive the ball he often go for winners or attack his man. This will be devastating when it's works. Against weaker opponents we can attack with seven players without losing stability in our defense.
Off course there are weaknesses in this system, we can be static, pedestrian and predictable. But I expect that our superior quality op front will save us most of the times when we struggle with our initial game plan. There are no perfect system and formation but if we play to our strength and give our players confidence and freedom inside a well drilled system we will be hard to beat, thats something we have missed last season.
In a perfect world be should buy a b2b midfielder like Vidal, a quality CB like Hummels and Cuadrado or Reus, then our first XI are as strong as anybody else. Off course that's utopia and just a dream but let's say we can add a quality left footed CB and B2B midfielder then we are in a much much better position then last season.
I also have big hopes that Evans, Jones and Smalling will step up this season, they have potential and with a good start they can gain confidence and fill the big boots of Vidic and Rio.
Right now 3-5-2 is our best option and with LvG as a manager I feel 100% safe. This is the guy who just a month ago out smart del Bosque and Scolari, then you know your onions. Bring me the season, can't wait.
Firstly we use our most creative players as effective as possible. We give every player freedom to shine inside their area and when we lose or win possession our players instantly knows where to run. That's a huge advantage from least season. Another good thing is that we can use many of our players versatility, for example Jones, Herrera and Rooney. Both Smalling and Evans are weak against strong forwards, with 3 CB we eliminate this weakness. Our midfielders except Herrera lack first touch and technique to beat their opponent in a man against man situation, with this system they don't have to face this problem when both Rooney and Mata are their nearest forward option. That makes them more secure to keep possession and play safe until they find a good chance to involve our forward players.
In defense our wing backs can concentrate on pushing their opponent players outside the penalty area, they don't have to challenge with late tackles or be the last defender against skillful forwards. When going forward they often receive the ball with full control of the pitch, don't have to worry about players behind their back and if they lose the ball it's no instant harm done.
The best part is our offensive. Finally Rooney, Mata and Rvp can play together in preferred roles. This shall not be underestimated.
I expect Ander Herrera to be our key player, with or without the ball. He creates spaces with his intelligent movement and when he receive the ball he often go for winners or attack his man. This will be devastating when it's works. Against weaker opponents we can attack with seven players without losing stability in our defense.
Off course there are weaknesses in this system, we can be static, pedestrian and predictable. But I expect that our superior quality op front will save us most of the times when we struggle with our initial game plan. There are no perfect system and formation but if we play to our strength and give our players confidence and freedom inside a well drilled system we will be hard to beat, thats something we have missed last season.
In a perfect world be should buy a b2b midfielder like Vidal, a quality CB like Hummels and Cuadrado or Reus, then our first XI are as strong as anybody else. Off course that's utopia and just a dream but let's say we can add a quality left footed CB and B2B midfielder then we are in a much much better position then last season.
I also have big hopes that Evans, Jones and Smalling will step up this season, they have potential and with a good start they can gain confidence and fill the big boots of Vidic and Rio.
Right now 3-5-2 is our best option and with LvG as a manager I feel 100% safe. This is the guy who just a month ago out smart del Bosque and Scolari, then you know your onions. Bring me the season, can't wait.
What? Are you serious?
Wilson clearly has a point. If most teams play with only one striker, you'd rather have a midfielder play in midfield than have a centerback dragged out of position all the time. If the centerback steps out, organising the defense becomes more difficult and you have a player who is forced to work out of his comfort zone all the time. Teams starting to play with only one striker was pretty much the reason why most teams stopped playing 3 at the back, it's a clear disadvantage.
However, the way football has changed in recent years makes it less surprising that 3 at the back becomes more popular again. In most teams you don't see traditional wingers who provide width anymore, every great wide attacker is some sort of wide forward or inverse winger, who constantly cuts inside with the fullbacks providing width. If you want to defend against Ronaldo or Robben (or Hazard, Müller, Sanchez, Pedro, ...), you're constantly dragged inside the box or towards the center of the pitch anyway. At the moment, it actually makes sense to have that 3rd centerback again. Even though on paper you rarely see teams with 2 out and out strikers, most teams try to have a 2nd attacking player temporarily acting as a 2nd striker and defenders are constantly dragged all over the pitch when they try to contain that movement.
It's really a very interesting time for tactical development and the World Cup could easily be a forecast for the next years. In South Africa in 2010, basically every team played 4231 or 433 (Chile probably the only exception). Brazil 2014 showed so much variety in terms of tactics and it might take some time until something new becomes the standard again. The next years could be really chaotic in terms of tactics, and a well working back 3/5 with versatile defenders is certainly a good start to build on against everything out there.
You'd have a point if that was true, which it isn't. Or if he was half as good as Rio, which he isn't.
Generally he's correct, I have no doubt. But like all formations it's what you do with it.
The only issue for me is the ball over the top. Caused us problems all tour....
Looks like this system is working fecking well.
Oh puny doubters of LvG's brilliance, go and hide in shame.
Oh puny doubters of LvG's brilliance, go and hide in shame.
I don´t think I have seen a single one of those on this forum.Looks like this system is working fecking well.
Oh puny doubters of LvG's brilliance, go and hide in shame.