Smashley Young

mufcwarm92 said:
And he had also produced much more than any of those players ever did. I think the problem is that people have let the Euros cloud their opinion of him. He had a poor tournament, everyone knows that but it has feck all relevance to United and he certainly isn't the first United player to disappoint for England.

The fact of the matter is he had an impressive debut season and has had a long term injury that has meant he's looked a little off form this term. I completely agree about him being our third best winger but you'll struggle to find a third choice winger even close to the quality of Young.
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Why would it cloud their opinion of Young but not RVP?
 
Or Rooney who is regularly awful for England. It hasn't clouded anyones perceptions, that is how he has largely performed for United.
 
Ekeke said:
Why would it cloud their opinion of Young but not RVP?
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Theon said:
Or Rooney who is regularly awful for England. It hasn't clouded anyones perceptions, that is how he has largely performed for United.
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That's what confuses me so much about the whole situation. There is feck all to suggest he was an average player from his first season but everyone seems to forget that. He hasn't 'largely performed' poorly for United, he has for two games after a long-term injury. In his first season he was excellent.
 
mufcwarm92 said:
That's what confuses me so much about the whole situation. There is feck all to suggest he was an average player from his first season but everyone seems to forget that. He hasn't 'largely performed' poorly for United, he has for two games after a long-term injury. In his first season he was excellent.
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He was excellent right at the start of the season, but in my opinion he was far more of a cog in the machine than individually brilliant. He kept things flowing over and contributed with some goals and assists.

Then he were shite for a prolonged spell, then injured, then shite a bit more, and then he came a bit into his own for the last part of the season. So overall I'd say middle of the park for his first season.

The problem is he's not going to suddenly become an integral part of the team. At his best he's going to be a good but not spectacular player, who'll help our passing game and provide clever movement and good finishing. He might provide an assist or two from a cross or a set-piece(which he doesn't take now anyway). He's never going to be a real outlet for us, the guy who'll win the game when we're on the brink. He's more likely to be the guy sacrificed for someone like Hernandez.

And when you then add in that he's not really consistant at all, or at least he hasn't been in his career, then you're basically ending up with a Park Ji-Sung that doesn't fall over as much.
 
mufcwarm92 said:
That's what confuses me so much about the whole situation. There is feck all to suggest he was an average player from his first season but everyone seems to forget that. He hasn't 'largely performed' poorly for United, he has for two games after a long-term injury. In his first season he was excellent.
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That's a complete exaggeration, to be fair. he started the season well (along with the entirety of the team) but was pretty average bar a few good performances here and there for the rest of it.

Still, if he does get a run of games I'm sure he'll start playing better, though I'd prefer to see Kagawa, Hernandez, Welbeck etc in the team ahead of him.
 
mufcwarm92 said:
That's what confuses me so much about the whole situation. There is feck all to suggest he was an average player from his first season but everyone seems to forget that. He hasn't 'largely performed' poorly for United, he has for two games after a long-term injury. In his first season he was excellent.
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Excellent? No fecking way.
 
What annoys me about Young is his inability to take on a man; Nani would have a field day if he had been isolated one on one against his fullback as often as Young is, but Young seems reluctant to even try to dribble past anyone.

From what I have seen before, Young is very quick, almost up there with Agbonlahor, but he has yet to show this offensively for United. In defense you see him chasing the ball and winning it, so he covers very well for Evra. However, going forwards, Evra is the superior winger of the two, atm.

He has a very good left foot, but I just hope he can start take on him man and get past him to whip in a cross from time to time; does he have that bad a left foot that he can't cross with it?
 
Crustanoid said:
I think he has a case of the 'Berbatovs'

No similarities as players, I'm talking mentally here


He looked like he was one of Villa's better players who should have been at a better team but once he got here it was clear he wasn't up to 'United' quality mentally. He needs to be one of the go-to players in a mid table side IMO
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I disagree. If you watched Villa week in week out (which I did) he only really stood out 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 games. He has always been exceptionally inconsistent, which stopped him moving to a bigger club 5 years ago. In all fairness the only thing he has improved since his first full season at Villa is his work rate.

Leroy The Red said:
I think his time at Aston Villa actually hurt his development.
At Villa they played shit on a stick football, so all he had to do was aimlessly lump the ball into the box and one of their many 6 ft 5 players would get their head onto it.
When he first came here he tried to replicate this, unfortunately his crosses were going nowhere as we don't tend to pay shit on a stick football. Knowing that the likes of Carew, Heskey and Richard Dunne won't be getting on the end of any of his aimless crosses he has now decided to pass the ball backwards to avoid putting in one of his aimless crosses. Wanna blame anyone, blame Martin O'Neill.
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It's difficult to say whether Villa stifled his development, or whether he was just an early bloomer who reached his maximum potential at 23. I actually think it was the latter watching him play.

manutddjw said:
People's expectations of Ashley Young from the day we bought him were way too high and not realistic and is probably one of the reasons why he gets so much stick when he hasn't actually been as bad as people make it seem. It's like people thought he was all of a sudden going to become world class because he signed for United. He's not world class and he wasn't at Aston Villa either, he just stood out from the rest like Charlie Adam did at Blackpool or Scott Parker did at West Ham.

His signing was mainly to have quality in depth and from that standpoint, we've done well. Ashley Young is a much better back up winger than Poborsky, Richardson, Obertan or Bebe were for us, and let's not forget that on his day he can be really good.
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People's expectations of him have reflected Fergie's expectations. He would not have signed the players you mention for around £18m and paid them 6 figures a week. I said from the start that Fergie was hugely overrating him as a player and I stand by that, he is a player who no-one would be questioning if he were £8m and was on £40-50k a week. But to be honest that isn't his fault, it's Fergie's. Not unlike the Berbatov situation.
 
Too much scrutiny tbh. He was bought to be 3rd choice, not start so many games for us. Once we've sorted out Nani's contract issue or bought a first choice winger, he'l go back to being a squad player. He definitely needs to improve a lot to even be 3rd choice specially with Kagawa being in the squad.
 
Varun_Utd said:
Too much scrutiny tbh. He was bought to be 3rd choice, not start so many games for us. Once we've sorted out Nani's contract issue or bought a first choice winger, he'l go back to being a squad player. He definitely needs to improve a lot to even be 3rd choice specially with Kagawa being in the squad.
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He cost more than Valencia. Scrutiny is to be expected.
 
Varun_Utd said:
Too much scrutiny tbh. He was bought to be 3rd choice, not start so many games for us. Once we've sorted out Nani's contract issue or bought a first choice winger, he'l go back to being a squad player. He definitely needs to improve a lot to even be 3rd choice specially with Kagawa being in the squad.
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3rd choice?? Bloody hell that was an expensive third choice...!!
 
I think it's a bit unfair to be scrutinising him now considering that long injury lay off. Still, having said that, imo - Young...another united player who won't be here in 2/3 seasons time!
 
If we had clinched the title on the last day or even before hand as we should have, Young's first season would have been marked as a success. He put together vital goals + assists at the beginning and end of the season when fit (West Brom away, Arsenal home, Blackburn away, Norwich away). He can be frustrating but I think he's getting unfairly rinsed on here of late. Valencia has been just as bad IMO. But despite some poor individual and collective performances we're top of the league and hopefully can kick on from here.
 
marjen said:
He cost more than Valencia. Scrutiny is to be expected.
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Yes but scrutinzing him after such a lengthy lay off isnt fair on him specially when he's clearly off form. He'l get better.

Adebesi said:
Surely nobody is bought to be third choice. Not for that kind of money.
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togg said:
3rd choice?? Bloody hell that was an expensive third choice...!!
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3rd choice as in the 3rd choice winger at the club behind nani and valencia to allow us to rotate the 2. You think he was bought to replace either of them?
 
He has often gotten in the first team ahead of Valencia and especially Nani, for sustained periods of time. I don't get it myself cause he's very much inferior to both of them, but Fergie seems to rate him very highly, for some reason.

I think Fergie sees him as much more than just a squad player.
 
I dont think you spend that amount of money on a player that you dont see as having at least the potential to becoming a first choice pick. Surely as a manager you want to be constantly improving the team, pushing the players you have to be better, not just buying someone and saying, OK, this guy is nowhere near as good as what I have but he might come in handy one day when someone is injured. You would buy a kid to play that role, and even then you would buy one you hoped would one day make it as a top player who would make it in your team.

Would just seem a complete waste of time to buy players you felt were second rate. It isnt how you survive at the top, thinking, right, we have the best team in the county now, so we might as well just leave it as it is and buy some really expensive but inferior players to wait in the wings. No, you are always striving to improve, whether that is for today or with an eye on tomorrow.

Whether we all agree certain players tick those boxes is another question. I am deeply ambivalent about Young, was not that keen when we signed him - precisely for these reasons, and because there were other positions that needed strengthening. I think he has actually been a damn sight better and more useful than I expected him to be. But I have no doubt Fergie believed he had it in him to eclipse what he already had. Otherwise I honestly dont think he would have bothered to bring him in.
 
Cina said:
He has often gotten in the first team ahead of Valencia and especially Nani, for sustained periods of time. I don't get it myself cause he's very much inferior to both of them, but Fergie seems to rate him very highly, for some reason.

I think Fergie sees him as much more than just a squad player.
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May well be the case, but I hope not. If our central midfield isn't going to be top class in today's game, our wingers have to be absolutely top drawer. Young simply isn't top drawer. Not at his best and certainly not at the moment.
 
Adebesi said:
I dont think you spend that amount of money on a player that you dont see as having at least the potential to becoming a first choice pick. Surely as a manager you want to be constantly improving the team, pushing the players you have to be better, not just buying someone and saying, OK, this guy is nowhere near as good as what I have but he might come in handy one day when someone is injured. You would buy a kid to play that role, and even then you would buy one you hoped would one day make it as a top player who would make it in your team.

Would just seem a complete waste of time to buy players you felt were second rate. It isnt how you survive at the top, thinking, right, we have the best team in the county now, so we might as well just leave it as it is and buy some really expensive but inferior players to wait in the wings. No, you are always striving to improve, whether that is for today or with an eye on tomorrow.

Whether we all agree certain players tick those boxes is another question. I am deeply ambivalent about Young, was not that keen when we signed him - precisely for these reasons, and because there were other positions that needed strengthening. I think he has actually been a damn sight better and more useful than I expected him to be. But I have no doubt Fergie believed he had it in him to eclipse what he already had. Otherwise I honestly dont think he would have bothered to bring him in.
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He was 26 when we bought him though. It's not like we bought another Valencia who could step it up and become a much better player at the club, I felt even when we signed Young that we'd already seen him at his best, and that his best isn't good enough to be a first team player or justify the money paid.

Still, he's a Utd player now, no point reflecting on those things I suppose. Let's hope he can kick on and be an important player for us.
 
Cina said:
He was 26 when we bought him though. It's not like we bought another Valencia who could step it up and become a much better player at the club, I felt even when we signed Young that we'd already seen him at his best, and that his best isn't good enough to be a first team player or justify the money paid.

Still, he's a Utd player now, no point reflecting on those things I suppose. Let's hope he can kick on and be an important player for us.
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But this is more a philosophical point than a tirade against Young - for me at least.

You make a good point about his age. Again, this was why I found the whole thing quite perplexing, to put it mildly. I can only assume SAF thought he would come on rapidly, not because he would suddenly mature as a player, but because he would thrive in his surroundings. I think Dwight Yorke was an example that was cited at the time of the signing: a good player but nobody realised he would take to his United career quite like he did. I can only assume SAF was looking for a similar improvement - believed one was possible, likely even.

Do you dispute the general principle of what I am saying? I mean, does it strike you as a good strategy to fork out nearly £20m (when you are very preoccupied with "value in the market", remember) for a player you think has no realistic chance of being better than what you already have? Does that sound like SAF's mentality?

To reiterate, this is not so much about how good Young actually is, or could be. It is about SAF's recruitment policy, and what he is trying to do with the squad. I am only arguing that even if Young is not, and never will be, as good as Nani and Valencia, SAF at least believe(s)(d) he could be better than that.
 
Young is what he is.

A slightly underwhelming winger for a top side, who at his best is a more than useful contributor to the side.

I don't expect this to change, so my verdict most likely will be that he'll end up having been a slightly costly upgrade on Park.
 
Adebesi said:
Do you dispute the general principle of what I am saying? I mean, does it strike you as a good strategy to fork out nearly £20m (when you are very preoccupied with "value in the market", remember) for a player you think has no realistic chance of being better than what you already have? Does that sound like SAF's mentality?
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No I don't disagree with anything you're saying here. I too feel a little baffled by the signing, I'd understand it if it wasn't for such a hefty fee and the fact that he's apparently on more money than our other two (far better) wingers, as well as seemingly first choice when fit.

I would be really surprised if SAF bought Young and thought he was a better player than Nani or Valencia, because pretty much nobody does. But I think it's evident so far that he rates him highly, like, really highly. Thing is though, SAF loves English players, he has no reluctance paying more for them that their foreign counterparts, and making them integral parts of our squad.

But I guess it's all in the past now, and we need to get behind him, because he certainly looks to be in SAFs plans, and will likely be in the forefront of them if Nani's situation doesn't get resolved.
 
marjen said:
a slightly costly upgrade on Park.
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OK so there is the piece of this jigsaw I couldnt see. I was thinking about Valencia and Nani. But he was signed as Park's replacement.

Suddenly everything becomes clear.

How that sits alongside the value in the market debate I still dont know. I guess £20m just doesnt buy you as much as it used to.
 
Adebesi said:
OK so there is the piece of this jigsaw I couldnt see. I was thinking about Valencia and Nani. But he was signed as Park's replacement.

Suddenly everything becomes clear.

How that sits alongside the value in the market debate I still dont know. I guess £20m just doesnt buy you as much as it used to.
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I think the fact he was "available" ´, as in not wanting to sign a new deal, and the fact that Fergie's admired him for a while made the chance too good to miss really.

I've got no doubt he was signed to provide serious competition for Nani and Valencia, and at the start of last season it seemed like he was going to do just that.

I like Young, I really do, but his top level isn't the sort of unplayable level that Valencia and Nani tend to reach.
 
marjen said:
Young is what he is.

A slightly underwhelming winger for a top side, who at his best is a more than useful contributor to the side.

I don't expect this to change, so my verdict most likely will be that he'll end up having been a slightly costly upgrade on Park.
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Would be nice but I just don't see it yet. Said it before somewhere in this thread, but Young has had nothing like the impact that Park did for us at his best. Seeing Park in the flesh putting in one of those ridiculous three lung rampages was something to marvel at (same goes for Fletcher), and he did it consistently. He was consistently one of the best players we had against the top teams.

It is not completely unlikely that he will improve and get to that sort of level of contribution, mind you. Despite this, the fear is that we were seriously exposed against Barcelona in 2011 whilst playing someone like Park alongside a midfield that wasn't up to scratch. I think it was the right decision starting him back then in context of the run up to the final, but we've not learnt lessons that we should've done from that final. Young is not a good enough player to compensate for our weaknesses in central midfield (as opposed to someone like Silva or hopefully Kagawa) against top teams in possession that press the ball (just as Park wasn't), and we should either be making sure that someone better than him is in the side, or that we have a better, more balanced midfield.

At this point, we seem to be resistant to both of these ideas!
 
Agree with KE, he's nothing like Park.

Not that I would even want to be mind, Park was imperious at his best and his workrate was vital in some big games against Arsenal etc, but he was still a limited player. Young will have cost just shy of £50,000,000 come the end of his contract. For that fee he needs to offer more in attack than just workrate.
 
Theon said:
Agree with KE, he's nothing like Park.

Not that I would even want to be mind, Park was imperious at his best and his workrate was vital in some big games against Arsenal etc, but he was still a limited player. Young will have cost just shy of £50,000,000 come the end of his contract. For that fee he needs to offer more in attack than just workrate.
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Park was never quite as limited as some on here think, especially not at his peak. He had a bit of a dribble in him given the chance, and scored some good goals. In that string of matches against Chelsea at the end of the 10/11 season, he was probably our most important player aside from Rooney. He utterly bossed the midfield both defensively and creatively.

I don't see Young as being any less limited, to be honest. He can't dribble, he's not an especially good passer and isn't really 'creative'. His cross is good when he's on form but can be shit when he isn't. The only real technical excellence he has in his locker is that one curling shot from the left-hand corner of the box (which is bizarrely consistent when he's on form). But at the moment that seems to have disappeared.
 
I'm not saying he's the same type of player as Park entirely, just that he's probably ending up replacing his place in the squad. A winger who'll produce in big games and even if he's a bit off creatively will put a good shift in and work hard.

A more "safe" solution than some of our other wing options if you like.
 
marjen said:
I'm not saying he's the same type of player as Park entirely, just that he's probably ending up replacing his place in the squad. A winger who'll produce in big games and even if he's a bit off creatively will put a good shift in and work hard.

A more "safe" solution than some of our other wing options if you like.
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Agreed. At the moment he is proving to be a fairly costly replacement though.

Brightonian said:
Park was never quite as limited as some on here think, especially not at his peak. He had a bit of a dribble in him given the chance, and scored some good goals. In that string of matches against Chelsea at the end of the 10/11 season, he was probably our most important player aside from Rooney. He utterly bossed the midfield both defensively and creatively.

I don't see Young as being any less limited, to be honest. He can't dribble, he's not an especially good passer and isn't really 'creative'. His cross is good when he's on form but can be shit when he isn't. The only real technical excellence he has in his locker is that one curling shot from the left-hand corner of the box (which is bizarrely consistent when he's on form). But at the moment that seems to have disappeared.
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He can dribble though, I don't think he has lost the ability or anything. He isn't 'creative' as a playmaker but it's not too shabby. Every part of his game is off at the moment due to his lack of confidence. Once he regains his confidence he will be much better than he is showing.

Some of you (not necessarily you) are kind of implying he doesn't have the ability, which is not true. He has proved in the past he has, he just needs to deliver more consistently and be more confident, and face up to the responsibility of playing for a big club.
 
On paper he wasn't a bad buy when we got him, but with the addition of Kagawa he won't get a look in centrally and Welbeck has improved vastly in 18 months. It's probably not looking like the best piece of business in the world, particularly if we lose Nani.
 
mufcwarm92 said:
That's what confuses me so much about the whole situation. There is feck all to suggest he was an average player from his first season but everyone seems to forget that. He hasn't 'largely performed' poorly for United, he has for two games after a long-term injury. In his first season he was excellent.
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Sorry thats just false.

He started his first season very well, then got injured and when he came back he was very dissappointing. He hasnt got back to playing well since. But now and again he's contributed nicely with goals.
 
He wasn't poor in his first season, and I agree that his start was excellent, but for what we bought him for, I just think a lot of people were expecting a lot more from him. It could be argued that he's only really a backup player, but then why did we spend so much money on a squad player when there'd have probably been similar quality players for less?
 
Just took on his man on the left, beat him and crossed with his left (!) perfectly for Danny to tap in.

He CAN do it. Encouraging.
 
Beachryan said:
Just took on his man on the left, beat him and crossed with his left (!) perfectly for Danny to tap in.

He CAN do it. Encouraging.
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We all know he can. He just needs to stop playing so safe at times. We bought him to replicate the wing play he showed at Aston Villa. He's an obvious threat when he throws the shackles off and expresses himself.
 
That's exactly what he should be trying more often.

It doesn't matter if his cross isn't as perfect as the one tonight as long as he's actually attempting to beat his man and create a chance.
 
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