Smashley Young

marjen said:
Pogue, stop deluding yourself. The "challenge" was barely a challenge. Young kicks his feet into the standing foot of Clark, partly changing the direction of his run to create contact. It's gamesmanship, and he added a theatrical dive on top of that. Seriously, stop deluding ourselves, that was as clear a dive as you're ever gonna see. It looks ridicilous.

For me, I don't enjoy winning nearly as much when the first goal came as a result of one of our players cheating. That wouldn't be a pen if Young didn't decide to kick his foot into Clark's, and leave his trailing leg. How some of you can defend that is incomprehensible for me.

I guess this is where we've come in the modern game, supporters defending that sort of cheating blindly. Had that been Suarez against us, I'd love to see the reaction on here.
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I'm not deluding myself at all, thanks. I'm aware he dived. Obviously, if the defender hadn't hung a leg out he wouldn't have been tempted, nor would the referee have awarded us a penalty.

As for the rest of your post, nice rant but kind of pointless. I, for one, am not "defending that sort of cheating blindly". I don't actually think anyone is. I'm just a little less fired up with moral outrage than the rest of ye. There are worse things in football.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I'm not deluding myself at all, thanks. I'm aware he dived. Obviously, if the defender hadn't hung a leg out he wouldn't have been tempted, nor would the referee have awarded us a penalty.

As for the rest of your post, nice rant but kind of pointless. I, for one, am not "defending that sort of cheating blindly". I don't actually think anyone is. I'm just a little less fired up with moral outrage than the rest of ye. There are worse things in football.
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Yeah, there obviously are.

That's not the point though. The point is I would prefer if we just beat the likes of QPR and Villa without resorting to that sort of blatant cheating. As I said, if you'd prefer us to win without our players diving around, then yes, it does take away from the experience of winning, however slightly.

For me, it takes away quite a bit. I'll probably don't give a feck if we win the league, but on the day, and the days after, it adds a certain sour flavour to the victory.
 
acnumber9 said:
Impeding doesn't have to be stopping. If it hinders him in anyway it is impeding. If Young's balance is in any way affected then it is an impediment.
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No, because that implies a non contact sport. You can get knocks and bruises in a game and it's not always a foul. Or has the game changed that much without me noticing?

Hectic said:
Agreed. Far too much focus is attributed to diving. It's an unfortunate part of the game that will always be there, but I've seen bigger reactions to a dive than a leg-breaker, consistently.
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It could be a result of the constant poor us/evil them hissy fits that defines many modern football fans; they have painted themselves into a corner of overreaction and hysteria.
 
It's a bit bizarre this really

Ashley Young is doing no different now to how he's always been.

He's a despicable cheating diving scumbag and he was that before he joined Utd. And you can add to that making every attempt possible to get opposition players sent off which I've seen him do in a Villa shirt on numerous occasions

It highlights just how far supporters can switch on their rose tinted glasses when a player changes shirts and for that point this thread is embarrassing
 
marjen said:
His balance would probably not have been hindered had he gone for the ball, which was actually in a slightly different direction than Clark, instead of kicking his feet into Clark's foot.
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And it wouldn't have been hindered at all if the defender hadn't hung a leg out. As it is I don't think it was a penalty the same way I didn't think it was when Dzeko did the same the other week. I don't remember the 'cheat' headlines for him.

I'm also one who doesn't understand the hysteria only for certain kinds of cheating. Bannan was cheating when he hacked Carrick down on a counter attack. Young cheated by running into a defender. What's the difference?
 
Jopub said:
It's a bit bizarre this really

Ashley Young is doing no different now to how he's always been.

He's a despicable cheating diving scumbag and he was that before he joined Utd. And you can add to that making every attempt possible to get opposition players sent off which I've seen him do in a Villa shirt on numerous occasions

It highlights just how far supporters can switch on their rose tinted glasses when a player changes shirts and for that point this thread is embarrassing
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You'd have a point if Utd fans were regularly criticising Young when he was at Villa. Where they?
 
moses said:
It could be a result of the constant poor us/evil them hissy fits that defines many modern football fans; they have painted themselves into a corner of overreaction and hysteria.
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I think it might be. Although the poor us/evil them side of it is even funnier, incorporating world-wide conspiracies and match-fixing from just about every angle possible to mention. There also seems to be very little of a gray area for diving, it's mostly seen as one or the other, nothing else.
 
Jopub said:
It's a bit bizarre this really

Ashley Young is doing no different now to how he's always been.

He's a despicable cheating diving scumbag and he was that before he joined Utd. And you can add to that making every attempt possible to get opposition players sent off which I've seen him do in a Villa shirt on numerous occasions

It highlights just how far supporters can switch on their rose tinted glasses when a player changes shirts and for that point this thread is embarrassing
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What the hell are you talking about?

Remind me, but this thread seems to have been started last year, not 2006 when he joined Villa, where you might have some basis of a point if we'd been talking about Young's diving since then, in a negative light.
 
moses said:
No, because that implies a non contact sport. You can get knocks and bruises in a game and it's not always a foul. Or has the game changed that much without me noticing?



It could be a result of the constant poor us/evil them hissy fits that defines many modern football fans; they have painted themselves into a corner of overreaction and hysteria.
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You can, but only if you've won the ball.
 
acnumber9 said:
And it wouldn't have been hindered at all if the defender hadn't hung a leg out. As it is I don't think it was a penalty the same way I didn't think it was when Dzeko did the same the other week. I don't remember the 'cheat' headlines for him.

I'm also one who doesn't understand the hysteria only for certain kinds of cheating. Bannan was cheating when he hacked Carrick down on a counter attack. Young cheated by running into a defender. What's the difference?
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Difference? Bannan didn't try to con the ref, he got his rightful punishment, and he knew what he was going to get.

Young got a penalty and last week, a pen and a red card to a Derry who hadn't done anything, as "reward" for his cheating. That's the bloody difference.

And of course the defender would stick his leg slightly out. Point being, there was absolutely nothing forcing Young into running into him, he changed direction slightly instead of going for the ball and having a go. It's cheating, why not just leave it at that? Not try to cover it up. Every defender in the world would have stuck his leg out slightly, it's a reflex. It's not as he tried to trip Young.

And yes, he's always been at it at Villa as well.
 
Jopub said:
It's a bit bizarre this really

Ashley Young is doing no different now to how he's always been.

He's a despicable cheating diving scumbag and he was that before he joined Utd. And you can add to that making every attempt possible to get opposition players sent off which I've seen him do in a Villa shirt on numerous occasions

It highlights just how far supporters can switch on their rose tinted glasses when a player changes shirts and for that point this thread is embarrassing
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If you spend a bit of time reading the thread thoroughly, you'll find not many are defending him.
 
Jopub said:
It's a bit bizarre this really

Ashley Young is doing no different now to how he's always been.

He's a despicable cheating diving scumbag and he was that before he joined Utd. And you can add to that making every attempt possible to get opposition players sent off which I've seen him do in a Villa shirt on numerous occasions

It highlights just how far supporters can switch on their rose tinted glasses when a player changes shirts and for that point this thread is embarrassing
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Whilst I wouldn't describe him as you do, I do agree with the gist of the post. Some of the bias here is incredible, hell would break loose if we were on the other end of that penalty.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I don't see how it takes away from winning and I have no idea what you're on about with all that guff about him "deciding to take some of the glory away". Wtf?
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No one is talking about how well United responded to City's thrashing of Norwich....

The Sun: Young ‘cheat’ fury
The Mirror: Man United 4-0 Aston Villa: 'Disgrace' Young in cheat storm
The Guardian: Manchester United's Ashley Young accused of looking for penalties

... as marjen says, its deflecting the focus away from the performance.
 
acnumber9 said:
You can, but only if you've won the ball.
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Nonsense, there is contact where the ball is not even relevant, are all those incidents free kicks. All the contact while waiting for a set piece for example. It's a semi contact sport. Contact is allowed, even if you don't get the ball sometimes. Lot's of outr defenders make some contact with various parts of their bodies in tackles they don't win. People are entitled to think it was a penalty, but mere contact is not enough for a foul in any circumstance, no matter how often a commentator says 'there was contact'.
 
Hectic said:
Oh no, end of the world time. Who gives a feck what is being reported about our win?
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I give a feck when some scouse-supporting twat goes to town claiming we only win when we cheat - and he's right for a couple of weeks running.

Also, the moral side of this for me - I don't want us to win while cheating, even if everyone else does. It doesn't make it right.
 
gaffs said:
No one is talking about how well United responded to City's thrashing of Norwich....

The Sun: Young ‘cheat’ fury
The Mirror: Man United 4-0 Aston Villa: 'Disgrace' Young in cheat storm
The Guardian: Manchester United's Ashley Young accused of looking for penalties

... as marjen says, its deflecting the focus away from the performance.
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Aye, same as the way a 5 point lead is a City capitulation and a 2 point lead means they could win it thanks to the genius of bringng Tevez back. Ignore the papers, they are just trying to outdo Sky Sports news.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Seeing as people seem to be relishing the righteous indignation, I'd like to throw another example of cheating out there.

In Chelsea's ghost goal last night, Mata will have seen that his shot didn't cross the line. By turning away to celebrate, he was deliberately trying to fool the officials. Should he be burnt at the stake too?
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Raised that very point in last night's long running debate with Moses and Mockney. I just can't understand how exaggerating contact, is worse than blatantly cheating to con the ref as Mata and terry did yesterday.

Had a defender pulled his shirt and brought him down the defender would undoubtedly claim the forward dived, in order for the penalty not to be given.

That for me is blatant cheating to attempt to con the ref into making a wrong decision. Surely worse than exaggerating an actual infringement to ensure the correct decision is made?

Funny how some cheating which is not as widely criticised by the broadcasters and media, becomes generally more acceptable than exaggeration!
 
marjen said:
I give a feck when some scouse-supporting twat goes to town claiming we only win when we cheat - and he's right for a couple of weeks running.

Also, the moral side of this for me - I don't want us to win while cheating, even if everyone else does. It doesn't make it right.
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I could not care less what a Liverpool fan, who I've never met or seen before in my life, says about how or why we won that game. Honestly, why would that have any effect on you at all?

Well, you'll have to accept that football rarely gives results for the team that has played the 'right' moral way. It's not great, scoring by taking an advantage from a dive, but I just can't understand the outrage or level of disappointment here.

Maybe I have cheater blood in me, but this is all lost on me. He dived, no-one will care in two weeks.
 
RAWK must be laughing at this thread, the hypocrisy of the outrage is unreal :lol:

The defender opened his body up putting his leg out without intent of going for the ball, 90% of players would have taken that opportunity, perhaps without being so theatrical about it.

The QPR dive was the awful one.
 
marjen said:
I give a feck when some scouse-supporting twat goes to town claiming we only win when we cheat - and he's right for a couple of weeks running.

Also, the moral side of this for me - I don't want us to win while cheating, even if everyone else does. It doesn't make it right.
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I wouldn't want us to come 2nd for the sake of a dive, especially while every other team does it.

Young is entitled to try and con the ref, just as the ref is obliged in my opinion to book clear dives. Yesterday's dive may not have occurred with better officiating in the last few years. Forwards have little to lose by going down. They have clamped down on reckless challenges and players are less inclined to jump in. They should do the same with diving. Hammer all the clear ones and it will occur less.
 
apotheosis said:
Raised that very point in last night's long running debate with Moses and Mockney. I just can't understand how exaggerating contact, is worse than blatantly cheating to con the ref as Mata and terry did yesterday.

Had a defender pulled his shirt and brought him down the defender would undoubtedly claim the forward dived, in order for the penalty not to be given.

That for me is blatant cheating to attempt to con the ref into making a wrong decision. Surely worse than exaggerating an actual infringement to ensure the correct decision is made?

Funny how some cheating which is not as widely criticised by the broadcasters and media, becomes generally more acceptable than exaggeration!
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Like I said in the Mata thread. Is a Suarez dive for a peno the same as Evra appealing for a throw he knows is not ours? I think you already said there was levels, so why persist?
 
moses said:
Young is entitled to try and con the ref, just as the ref is obliged in my opinion to book clear dives. Yesterday's dive may not have occurred with better officiating in the last few years. Forwards have little to lose by going down. They have clamped down on reckless challenges and players are less inclined to jump in. They should do the same with diving. Hammer all the clear ones and it will occur less.
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Best post so far about it.
 
I have to say when watching the game in real time yesterday I automatically screamed for a penalty. And let’s remember the referee only gets one look at it, so I think he got it spot on.

Its only when Sky start with their super slo mo replays from various angles that all the debate comes into it.

While I accept Young went down easily, it’s a penalty for me. Contact + defender not getting the ball + in the box = penalty.

Would love to see the reaction if that hadn’t been given and we would have drawn or lost the game……
 
moses said:
Like I said in the Mata thread. Is a Suarez dive for a peno the same as Evra appealing for a throw he knows is not ours? I think you already said there was levels, so why persist?
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The debate continues Moses, you still claim dive rather than exaggeration. There is a clear distinction in how the law perceives the 2 . One is feigning contact, which is an offence, the other cannot be determined satisfactorily and therefore is unprovable one way or the other.
 
Rooney24 said:
I have to say when watching the game in real time yesterday I automatically screamed for a penalty. And let’s remember the referee only gets one look at it, so I think he got it spot on.
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I don't think anyone is blaming the ref.
 
apotheosis said:
The debate continues Moses, you still claim dive rather than exaggeration. There is a clear distinction in how the law perceives the 2 . One is feigning contact, which is an offence, the other cannot be determined satisfactorily and therefore is unprovable one way or the other.
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You are pepetuating it. You are claiming amazement at the different reactions to transgressions while admitting last night that not all transgressions are the same.
 
moses said:
I don't think anyone is blaming the ref.
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Which is almost the point. No one is saying the ref got it wrong, so its a penalty is it not?

And to flip it on its head, if we hadnt been given that penalty we would all be seething (especially if we hadnt collected the 3 points) - I know I would.
 
moses said:
I wouldn't want us to come 2nd for the sake of a dive, especially while every other team does it.

Young is entitled to try and con the ref, just as the ref is obliged in my opinion to book clear dives. Yesterday's dive may not have occurred with better officiating in the last few years. Forwards have little to lose by going down. They have clamped down on reckless challenges and players are less inclined to jump in. They should do the same with diving. Hammer all the clear ones and it will occur less.
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By the same token they have very little to gain by staying up. You hardly ever see the offender punished for fouling someone if the fouled player stays on his feet.

More often than not if a player goes down the ref makes a decison one way or the other. If he stays on his feet, there is often no penalty, no punishment for the offenders and the only thing gained is 'credit' from the match commentators and after match pundits! Hardly much of a choice really.

The powers that be should ban Terry and Mata for what they did yesterday, it was a blatant attempt to knowingly con the ref and they should clamp down first on the provable cheating, before following hysterical media arm waving over unprovable incidents.
 
moses said:
I wouldn't want us to come 2nd for the sake of a dive, especially while every other team does it.

Young is entitled to try and con the ref, just as the ref is obliged in my opinion to book clear dives. Yesterday's dive may not have occurred with better officiating in the last few years. Forwards have little to lose by going down. They have clamped down on reckless challenges and players are less inclined to jump in. They should do the same with diving. Hammer all the clear ones and it will occur less.
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Hectic said:
Best post so far about it.
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I agree it is a very good post and sums it all up. If rules came in and diving received 3 game bans I would be furious at the player for diving.
 
Rooney24 said:
Which is almost the point. No one is saying the ref got it wrong, so its a penalty is it not?
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No, there are other factors. The diving makes it hard on the ref, and people see this. The players are so 'good' at diving people don't expect the refs to mind read.
 
apotheosis said:
By the same token they have very little to gain by staying up. You hardly ever see the offender punished for fouling someone if the fouled player stays on his feet.

More often than not if a player goes down the ref makes a decison one way or the other. If he stays on his feet, there is often no penalty, no punishment for the offenders and the only thing gained is 'credit' from the match commentators and after match pundits! Hardly much of a choice really.

The powers that be should ban Terry and Mata for what they did yesterday, it was a blatant attempt to knowingly con the ref and they should clamp down first on the provable cheating, before following hysterical media arm waving over unprovable incidents.
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If you read my whole post, they will not get booked for staying up.
 
apotheosis said:
No i am amazed at how blatant and provable cheating is deemed more acceptable than exaggerating an actual offence.
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Well then join the debate as to whether it was an actual offence.

And if Mata was more provable as cheating than Young's you are not dealing in facts. Entirely subjective.

edit - fwiw I think Mata may have really thought it was over the line, and even if he didn't I would equate it more with Roy Carroll v Spurs. A Lie by Omossion I think the catholics call it. He went with the flow, not as wilfully cheating as a dive in my opinion.
 
Hectic said:
I could not care less what a Liverpool fan, who I've never met or seen before in my life, says about how or why we won that game. Honestly, why would that have any effect on you at all?

Well, you'll have to accept that football rarely gives results for the team that has played the 'right' moral way. It's not great, scoring by taking an advantage from a dive, but I just can't understand the outrage or level of disappointment here.

Maybe I have cheater blood in me, but this is all lost on me. He dived, no-one will care in two weeks.
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I'm talking about my football supporting mates, who'll give me hell for it, and they'd be right. And every media outlet spins their story on Young, of course, as it sells papers. And morally it doesn't sit right with me, because it's so fecking needless. We're good enough to beat those teams without cheating, why should we cheat? It's not like he was desperate to avoid relegation or anything. I just don't understand it, is all.
 
Hectic said:
What the hell are you talking about?

Remind me, but this thread seems to have been started last year, not 2006 when he joined Villa, where you might have some basis of a point if we'd been talking about Young's diving since then, in a negative light.
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I thought it would be simple to see what I'm talking about. Christ it's not rocket science is it?

He's always dived, he's always cheated in a Villa shirt. (I know Villa fans who were embarrassed about this aspect of his game when he was there)

He's doing the same in a Utd shirt

What's the difference ?

Before he came to Utd he would have been a 'cheating scumbag' and even though fair play a good few of you are not defending him

but some of you are ....which is frankly embarrassing

In the cold light of day just for a moment forgetting who he plays for - he's a cheating scumbag and always was

I don't think I'm saying anything too complicated there Hectic
 
marjen said:
I'm talking about my football supporting mates, who'll give me hell for it, and they'd be right. And every media outlet spins their story on Young, of course, as it sells papers. And morally it doesn't sit right with me, because it's so fecking needless. We're good enough to beat those teams without cheating, why should we cheat? It's not like he was desperate to avoid relegation or anything. I just don't understand it, is all.
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What about it was in the 85th min at 0-0?
 
moses said:
No, there are other factors. The diving makes it hard on the ref, and people see this. The players are so 'good' at diving people don't expect the refs to mind read.
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I think on this occasion saying Young actually dived is a bit harsh. I think the worst that can be stuck on him is that he went down too easily when there was contact. By the letter of the law its still a penalty for me.

Diving? That was what Andy Carroll did a few weeks back at Newcastle. Going down in the box when there is no contact at all.
 
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