Six Nations 2016

I really like Mike Brown (probably only player to come out of the embarrassment of the World Cup with any credit), but must admit I was a bit confused how he wasn't off the field for that. I know he is entitled to kick the ball but it was also a clearly deliberate backwards kick to Murray's face.

Great player but definitely a dirtbag.
 
Barca84 said:
All Irish lads here I take it? Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Murray's head was behind Brown's boot, the ball was on the ground, it's a ruck, and it's kickable. Schmidt himself says it was accidental and the accusations here of thuggery are pretty shameless. Not too many players in this thread here judging by the mewling but if you've ever been rucked you'll know it's a good idea to let go of the ball( that's the rules lads) and get your head away from it when it's on the ground. I expect Murray won't be complaining.

As an England fan the likes of Brown are what you want pulling on the shirt. "Mr Angry" plays on the edge and that's what makes him such a great competitor. Love the man. What I don't like is rugby players calling for the opposition to get yellow carded. Get on with the game there's a ref for that stuff.

That Ireland team could do with some of that they're a soft fecking touch right now and are heading for wooden spoon status if they're not careful. England should've put 30 points on in that first half but are still only 3 games into the new regime and it was their own errors that gave the Irish a sniff.

Too much whingeing from the Irish about unfair play, refs, and not having as many players to pick from as everybody else. Boring.

Best game of the 6N so far.
Click to expand...

Nah mate, no sour grapes. To a man, every one of knows England more than deserved their victory.

But as much as there can be sore losers, there can be bad winners and that's exactly what you're being here.

Strange that you say we're heading for the wooden spoon just before saying it was the game of the championship so far.

Brown flung a succession of nasty kicks into a crowd of bodies and made contact with the face of a player. Nobody was holding on to the ball and he wasnt in a position where he was legally competing to retrieve possession either. He was off balance, leaning backwards and just throwing his foot into the ruck.

I played the game for 25 years. In England, Ireland and around the world but your analysis suggests it's you who doesn't understand what he's watching.

Win, lose or draw, players have a duty of care to their teammates and opponents. Rugby is a tough game but it isn't violence for the sake of violence and there are rules for a reason. Playing the macho card to excuse one of your own is a bullshit move.
 
Barca84 said:
All Irish lads here I take it? Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Murray's head was behind Brown's boot, the ball was on the ground, it's a ruck, and it's kickable. Schmidt himself says it was accidental and the accusations here of thuggery are pretty shameless. Not too many players in this thread here judging by the mewling but if you've ever been rucked you'll know it's a good idea to let go of the ball( that's the rules lads) and get your head away from it when it's on the ground. I expect Murray won't be complaining.

As an England fan the likes of Brown are what you want pulling on the shirt. "Mr Angry" plays on the edge and that's what makes him such a great competitor. Love the man. What I don't like is rugby players calling for the opposition to get yellow carded. Get on with the game there's a ref for that stuff.

That Ireland team could do with some of that they're a soft fecking touch right now and are heading for wooden spoon status if they're not careful. England should've put 30 points on in that first half but are still only 3 games into the new regime and it was their own errors that gave the Irish a sniff.

Too much whingeing from the Irish about unfair play, refs, and not having as many players to pick from as everybody else. Boring.

Best game of the 6N so far.
Click to expand...

Bit mystified by this. We're all saying that we'd like Brown in our team, basically. Well, that's what I was saying at least. A Martin Johnson or Neil Back-esque figure, a cnut you'd want on your side. Equally I don't see anyone saying that we deserved anything other than to lose. But you can't be defending those kicks. You could give him the first one as accidental but he launched a good four kicks to the head after that looking right at him.

Kicks in the head ≠ rucking.
 
diarm said:
Nah mate, no sour grapes. To a man, every one of knows England more than deserved their victory.

But as much as there can be sore losers, there can be bad winners and that's exactly what you're being here.

Strange that you say we're heading for the wooden spoon just before saying it was the game of the championship so far.

Brown flung a succession of nasty kicks into a crowd of bodies and made contact with the face of a player. Nobody was holding on to the ball and he wasnt in a position where he was legally competing to retrieve possession either. He was off balance, leaning backwards and just throwing his foot into the ruck.

I played the game for 25 years. In England, Ireland and around the world but your analysis suggests it's you who doesn't understand what he's watching.

Win, lose or draw, players have a duty of care to their teammates and opponents. Rugby is a tough game but it isn't violence for the sake of violence and there are rules for a reason. Playing the macho card to excuse one of your own is a bullshit move.
Click to expand...

Murray was holding onto the ball and if there was an infringement it was that one and he should've been pinged for it. And if I don't understand what I'm watching then neither does the ref, the TMO and both coaches who all agreed the contact was accidental. The "bullshit move" is accusing a player of deliberate violence. We all know a large number of Irish fans have a genuine dislike for Brown and it seems to me these accusations are driven by that agenda. Well I think that's low and it's telling that none of those actually involved in the game see it the way some Irish fans are. No doubt RTE have waded in but you won't get objectivity there.

unchanged_lineup said:
Bit mystified by this. We're all saying that we'd like Brown in our team, basically. Well, that's what I was saying at least. A Martin Johnson or Neil Back-esque figure, a cnut you'd want on your side. Equally I don't see anyone saying that we deserved anything other than to lose. But you can't be defending those kicks. You could give him the first one as accidental but he launched a good four kicks to the head after that looking right at him.

Kicks in the head ≠ rucking.
Click to expand...

I'm responding to a gathering of Irish fans here thinking it's ok to call 4 English players cnuts or pricks. I don't think that's on to be honest - it's disrespectful and as I said stinks of sour grapes. I can be defending those kicks as outlined above - the ref, TMO and both coaches saw that as accidental. No one likes seeing people get hurt but that's the game. Murray held onto the ball it was on the floor and there to be kicked.

As for the back handed Martin Johnson compliment I live in Ireland for years and was there when he refused to move the team for Mary Robinson and there was no respect for the man then just the usual whingeing about England being arrogant, disrespectful etc etc

Stringer said:
Sour grapes? Hardly. England were deserved victors and it should have been over by halftime. Brown may have been entitled to kick the ball but he still has to take responsibility and actually aim at the thing. He was kicking wildly around Murray's head which led to him going off injured. Brown is a great player but there's plenty of better players who don't feel the need to be such a prick so I don't see why it is necessary or celebrated. He's a fake 'hard man' who usually picks fights with players smaller than him or who are on the ground.
Click to expand...

The problem with Brown is that he picks fights with anyone inc lads twice his size. Fake hard man? I suspect he's extremely hard like pretty much any intrenational rugby player don't you? And that includes Stringer - one of the feistiest and snidest of players to pull on a green jersey in recent years.
 
The quality of the games have been poor up until now.
 
Barca84 said:
Murray was holding onto the ball and if there was an infringement it was that one and he should've been pinged for it. And if I don't understand what I'm watching then neither does the ref, the TMO and both coaches who all agreed the contact was accidental. The "bullshit move" is accusing a player of deliberate violence. We all know a large number of Irish fans have a genuine dislike for Brown and it seems to me these accusations are driven by that agenda. Well I think that's low and it's telling that none of those actually involved in the game see it the way some Irish fans are. No doubt RTE have waded in but you won't get objectivity there.



I'm responding to a gathering of Irish fans here thinking it's ok to call 4 English players cnuts or pricks. I don't think that's on to be honest - it's disrespectful and as I said stinks of sour grapes. I can be defending those kicks as outlined above - the ref, TMO and both coaches saw that as accidental. No one likes seeing people get hurt but that's the game. Murray held onto the ball it was on the floor and there to be kicked.

As for the back handed Martin Johnson compliment I live in Ireland for years and was there when he refused to move the team for Mary Robinson and there was no respect for the man then just the usual whingeing about England being arrogant, disrespectful etc etc
Click to expand...

Rare to see such preciousness these days. Bless.
 
Barca84 said:
I'm responding to a gathering of Irish fans here thinking it's ok to call 4 English players cnuts or pricks. I don't think that's on to be honest - it's disrespectful and as I said stinks of sour grapes. I can be defending those kicks as outlined above - the ref, TMO and both coaches saw that as accidental. No one likes seeing people get hurt but that's the game. Murray held onto the ball it was on the floor and there to be kicked.

As for the back handed Martin Johnson compliment I live in Ireland for years and was there when he refused to move the team for Mary Robinson and there was no respect for the man then just the usual whingeing about England being arrogant, disrespectful etc etc
Click to expand...

Which one is it? Was he holding on to the ball, or was it on the ground to be kicked? :confused::confused: Can't be both.

What was backhanded about it? We all remember that incident. We all hated him for it. But we also all would have wanted him in our team, because he won that day.
 
diarm said:
Rare to see such preciousness these days. Bless.
Click to expand...

What a lame response. The only preciousness on display here is yours and others post match bleating so you've had some balance. Don't like it? Tough. This is the 6 Nations thread and if you don't want opposition fans popping up with a different take to yours go cosy up in a thread for Irish rugby fans only eh?

unchanged_lineup said:
Which one is it? Was he holding on to the ball, or was it on the ground to be kicked? :confused::confused: Can't be both.

What was backhanded about it? We all remember that incident. We all hated him for it. But we also all would have wanted him in our team, because he won that day.
Click to expand...

in what physical world can't the ball be on the ground and simultaneously being held by someone? As it was during this incident by a player holding on to the ball, against the rules, attempting to prevent it being kicked away and catching a boot that wouldn't have been anywhere near his face if he hadn't been doing just that. Murray was doing his job, as was Brown, and if there is a citing (although time seems to be running out) it would be for recklessness not the deliberate premeditated guff that's been spouted in this thread. Schmidt has called it right but that's with the benefit of objectivity and not out of dislike of a particular individual which is what's colouring the conversation here for some.

Re Johnson. A few years on and this line that you'd all want him in your team is quite a rewrite of the mood of the time. The bile and invective launched by the Irish media and public at the England team and Johnson back then was way out of proportion and bordering on hate speech.

Gol123 said:
The quality of the games have been poor up until now.
Click to expand...

Yes definitely and it suffers in comparison to the WC. Hopefully it will pick up and I think the Eng v Ire game was getting there. Eng v Wales could be epic - let's hope it's not over reffed and the game is allowed to flow. At the moment I think the Welsh defense might be too strong for England but England do have momentum and there's a welcome abrasiveness about them that was missing under Lancaster. Huge game.
 
Shamlessly stealing from someone who knows the rules better than me from this from the comments of an article here, but I'm providing the link so you can see where it comes from. "Bill McHale" is the commenter and he replies to people's questions about his points. I think these are good points, you probably don't, and I'm going to leave it at that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...mping-after-Mike-Brown-hurt-Conor-Murray.html

World Rugby:
"Players are rucking when they are in a ruck and using their feet to try to win or keep possession of the ball, without being guilty of foul play".
Foul play can be deliberate, accidental, or reckless in nature.

Question: Was Brown trying to "win" possession of the ball during the incident?
In attempting to kick the ball forwards, towards the Irish players, it must reasonably be accepted that he was not trying to win possession, rather he was attempting to disrupt/interfere with Irish possession. All fine, as the game is now being played by everyone.

I say this in one context only- This is what Joe Schmidt was speaking about becoming prevalent in the game. We have all had a proper shoeing for lying offside, in the way, on the wrong side etc, and World Rugby have tried to limit this happening (everything is now a stamp), rucking may be mentioned in the Laws, but in reality it no longer occurs in connection with the feet.
However, the boot flying through is NOT rucking, as described in the Laws of the game, rather it is something that has crept in, with no provision for it within the Laws, and no clarity as a result.Players do it, and to avoid incidents as occurred on Saturday, World Rugby should simply enforce the rucking Laws.

Law 16.2 (b)
"A player joining a ruck must bind on a team mate or an opponent, using the whole arm,
The bind must either precede, or be simultaneous with, contact with any other part of the body of the player joining the ruck".

Question, in order for Brown to have been legitimately (see above) kicking the ball through from the ruck (rucking) he MUST have been bound on "a team mate, or an opponent" using his WHOLE arm.
Was he? No.
He was doing what all players do, he was standing , in an onside position, but was NOT part of the ruck, as he was not bound onto the ruck (or any player in the ruck) with his whole arm, Penalty- this becomes significant later..
As mentioned elsewhere, Care was pinged for "lying over" , penalty.
Murray himself was guilty of subsequently handling in the ruck, penalty.
However, as Cares was the first offence, what Murray subsequently did was immaterial, as advantage was being played.

10.4 (c)
"A player must not must not kick an opponent".
It should be noted that the law does not provide any definition of "kick".
It should also be noted that the law makes no reference to "deliberate", and therefore by said lack of definition, must include accidental/reckless, (which sadly covers almost every event).

10.4 (h)
'A player must not charge into a ruck or maul.
Charging includes ANY contact (my emphasis) made without the use of the arms or without grasping the player.
There was contact between Brown and the player (Murray), as pointed out above, (Law 16.2 (b)), Brown was not part of the ruck as he had not bound with his whole arm, and could therefore be considered to have been guilty of an offence under this law also, depending on how they wish to apply it.- Can you "charge" feet first?
Common sense would say 'No, of course not", but hey, this is Rugby.

Apply the rucking law. Enforce it, if you're trying to kick the ball in the direction of the opposition, then you are not rucking, ergo penalty.
Brown was doing what every player now does, ban it, end of, this was always going to happen to someone, and Brown is the unfortunate to be the one who kicked, and Murray the one to be kicked, once again the game has a problem.
Maybe this one will be fixed before someone dies or loses an eye.
that'd be good.
Click to expand...
 
An excellent interpretation of the rules there that I have little issue with. An interpretation though it remains as does the referee's and the TMO's.

That analysis however has little to do with accusations of players deliberately kicking opposition players in the head, as evidenced in this thread, and more to do with the needed clarification of what is allowed and what isn't in the ruck. I've called you out, and the others, for those accusations which I'll remind you are not shared by the ref, the TMO, or the Irish coach.

Thankfully no one was seriously hurt and I've no doubt that Mike Brown, Dylan Hartley, Owen Farrell, Courtney Lawes (and possibly one or two other English cnuts and pricks) will be looking forward to a warm welcome in Dublin next time around if selected.
 
I've nothing against this English side and was actually sticking up for Brown before you entered this thread with ham fists flying.

You've come across as a bad winner here Barca84. You've also totally taken the wrong end of the stick in terms of Lawes, Hartley, Farrell etc. We never called them cnuts but I did say there were probably players on his side you'd call a dick ahead of Brown.

I also said there were one or two on our side and there's no harm in that. Great players for both our countries (Back, Clohessy, Quinlan, Rog, Healy etc) were complete arseholes to play against. Most of them, and I include the current crop apart from maybe Hartley, managed to do so in the large part without being thugs.
 
diarm said:
I've nothing against this English side and was actually sticking up for Brown before you entered this thread with ham fists flying.

You've come across as a bad winner here Barca84. You've also totally taken the wrong end of the stick in terms of Lawes, Hartley, Farrell etc. We never called them cnuts but I did say there were probably players on his side you'd call a dick ahead of Brown.

I also said there were one or two on our side and there's no harm in that. Great players for both our countries (Back, Clohessy, Quinlan, Rog, Healy etc) were complete arseholes to play against. Most of them, and I include the current crop apart from maybe Hartley, managed to do so in the large part without being thugs.
Click to expand...

The ham fists were flying long before I entered with a different perspective..

diarm said:
I like Mike Brown, possibly my favourite English player but that was thuggery, right in front of the referee today. He must have flung 6 kicks into that crowd of bodies without a flying feck for who or what he hit.
Click to expand...

Think on before accusing any player of deliberately trying to hurt and maim a rival. Poor form that and you, and the others here, needed pulling up.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
From your own Suarez thread:
Click to expand...

You've trawled my posts looking for something to hang me with and this is it? Are you arguing Suarez is otherwise?

Desperate stuff lads.

Meanwhile the Citing Commissioner also thinks you're all in the wrong.
 
Barca84 said:
You've trawled my posts looking for something to hang me with and this is it? Are you arguing Suarez is otherwise?

Desperate stuff lads.

Meanwhile the Citing Commissioner also thinks you're all in the wrong.
Click to expand...

"Trawled" - You've got four threads :rolleyes: I'm not saying anything about Suarez, just holding up a mirror.

Wouldn't be the first time a citing officer has made a disputable call

"Wood hugely fortunate to escape without a ban for reckless play, similar boots in the past have seen bigger bans. Intent irrelevant."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...view-of-each-citing-from-the-pool-stages.html
 
Don't really care what a citing commissioner says, I've been saying the raking law needs an overhaul for a long time now.

Brown on Saturday was making no legitimate to rake the ball. There was no England player over the ball and making a legal effort to steal it. Murray was presenting the ball because of this. Yes he had hands on it but you see that in every ruck. It's not holding if no one is attempting a steal, it's just presenting.

Then Brown steps in in an upright position, makes no effort to drive over the ball and just starts throwing his foot into the ruck. You can dress it up anyway you like but it was a thug move from a player I like and who should know better.

If it was a Munster or Irish player I would, and have said the same
 
diarm said:
Don't really care what a citing commissioner says, I've been saying the raking law needs an overhaul for a long time now.

Brown on Saturday was making no legitimate to rake the ball. There was no England player over the ball and making a legal effort to steal it. Murray was presenting the ball because of this. Yes he had hands on it but you see that in every ruck. It's not holding if no one is attempting a steal, it's just presenting.

Then Brown steps in in an upright position, makes no effort to drive over the ball and just starts throwing his foot into the ruck. You can dress it up anyway you like but it was a thug move from a player I like and who should know better.

If it was a Munster or Irish player I would, and have said the same
Click to expand...

Or the ref, or the TMO, or your own coach? Doesn't really leave anyone else does it? Blinkered.

Nothing else to add lads I'll leave you to your version of events.
 
The Irish fella probably was asking for it for handling the ball on the ground, but my first reaction was that Brown deliberately kicked him several times. Brown should have been cited, and I'm an England fan.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Not much enthusiasm for today :( I hope Marmion gets a go, in the game nowadays he probably will.
Click to expand...
The team picked is just hugely uninspiring. This felt like a chance to stick with McCloskey, maybe having Payne at full back, as well as giving Dillane, Gilroy and Jackson a game. The bench has several players who clearly aren't the best back-up options and this is clearly the best opportunity we have this year to try new players given the Championship is gone, we go to South Africa in the summer and play New Zealand twice in the autumn.
 
Ha, typical Caf rugby thread post England v Ireland.

Bigg game today, decider.
 
Phil said:
Ha, typical Caf rugby thread post England v Ireland.

Bigg game today, decider.
Click to expand...

:D

New ref. Funny to hear him saying "Yeah, cool" when explaining his decisions.

RORY65 said:
The team picked is just hugely uninspiring. This felt like a chance to stick with McCloskey, maybe having Payne at full back, as well as giving Dillane, Gilroy and Jackson a game. The bench has several players who clearly aren't the best back-up options and this is clearly the best opportunity we have this year to try new players given the Championship is gone, we go to South Africa in the summer and play New Zealand twice in the autumn.
Click to expand...

Why not. That'll be quite a big question for Schmidt if we have just an average game today. It's a dead rubber which we're going to win regardless and new players needed to be tried. He said he put Payne in to coordinate the defence with his experience, but why not chuck McCloskey into the fire today and see how he gets on. It feels like a lost opportunity.

Edit: Paddy Jackson too. That is really, really baffling.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
:D

New ref. Funny to hear him saying "Yeah, cool" when explaining his decisions.



Why not. That'll be quite a big question for Schmidt if we have just an average game today. It's a dead rubber which we're going to win regardless and new players needed to be tried. He said he put Payne in to coordinate the defence with his experience, but why not chuck McCloskey into the fire today and see how he gets on. It feels like a lost opportunity.

Edit: Paddy Jackson too. That is really, really baffling.
Click to expand...
Good to see an up and coming Aussie ref in the 6 nations.
 
Mitchell Nicholas said:
So, England vs Wales, is it basically winner takes all?
Click to expand...
Yep, pretty much decides who'll win this year.

If England win they'll win the Triple Crown as well for beating the 3 other teams of the British Isles.
 
Joemo said:
Yep, pretty much decides who'll win this year.

If England win they'll win the Triple Crown as well for beating the 3 other teams of the British Isles.
Click to expand...
And they'd back themselves to seal a grand slam in Paris next week if they beat Wales.
 
Craig Joubert returns to Twickenham since that decision in the World Cup quarter final between AUS and Scotland.
 
That was the best try we've scored in years. See what happens when you have talented players in your backline and they're allowed to take risks!

That said, Fergus McFadden did his very best to butcher it. Heaslip did extremely well in the end, to finish was should've been a simple run in if Fergie had simply straightened and passed.
 
Cuthbert is horrendous. How the hell is he back in the Welsh team?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.