McNair has a good future in front of him I agree, but not as a RB, he was exposed for lack of pace in the role when he played it in the PL, I actually think he could become a very good #6 if LVG chooses not to develop him as a CB. I love Rafael but realistically he's done here IMO and Coleman is comfortably better than Valencia offensively and defensively.
Seamus Coleman
- Thread starter Morpheus 7
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McNair has a good future in front of him I agree, but not as a RB, he was exposed for lack of pace in the role when he played it in the PL, I actually think he could become a very good #6 if LVG chooses not to develop him as a CB. I love Rafael but realistically he's done here IMO and Coleman is comfortably better than Valencia offensively and defensively.
How anyone could think he wouldn't be an upgrade on Valencia astounds me.
This thread is making my head hurt. 
Is Coleman top class? No. Does he have defensive flaws? Yes. Would he be my first choice RB to bring in? No. Will he be overpriced? Yes.
If I had been in charge we'd have gone for all of Alves, Darmian and Clyne over Coleman, if only because the latter two would be much cheaper.
So, with all that said, I don't really think I overrate Coleman. Yet even at that he is still a) one of the best right backs in the league, b) a clear and definite improvement on Valencia.
I don't think those are extravagant claims, especially since Valencia still doesn't even look comfortable playing in his new role as a fullback.
If you think Valencia is on par with Coleman then you are basically saying that the relatively average winger we've pushed into a fullback role out of necessity is now actually one of the best fullbacks in the league. That strikes me as a classically Rawkish argument that nobody outside this forum would make, so I ain't buying it.
Is Coleman top class? No. Does he have defensive flaws? Yes. Would he be my first choice RB to bring in? No. Will he be overpriced? Yes.
If I had been in charge we'd have gone for all of Alves, Darmian and Clyne over Coleman, if only because the latter two would be much cheaper.
So, with all that said, I don't really think I overrate Coleman. Yet even at that he is still a) one of the best right backs in the league, b) a clear and definite improvement on Valencia.
I don't think those are extravagant claims, especially since Valencia still doesn't even look comfortable playing in his new role as a fullback.
If you think Valencia is on par with Coleman then you are basically saying that the relatively average winger we've pushed into a fullback role out of necessity is now actually one of the best fullbacks in the league. That strikes me as a classically Rawkish argument that nobody outside this forum would make, so I ain't buying it.
This thread is making my head hurt.
Is Coleman top class? No. Does he have defensive flaws? Yes. Would he be my first choice RB to bring in? No. Will he be overpriced? Yes.
If I had been in charge we'd have gone for all of Alves, Darmian and Clyne over Coleman, if only because the latter two would be much cheaper.
So, with all that said, I don't really think I overrate Coleman. Yet even at that he is still a) one of the best right backs in the league, b) a clear and definite improvement on Valencia.
I don't think those are extravagant claims, especially since Valencia still doesn't even look comfortable playing in his new role as a fullback.
If you think Valencia is on par with Coleman then you are basically saying that the relatively average winger we've pushed into a fullback role out of necessity is now actually one of the best fullbacks in the league. That strikes me as a classically Rawkish argument that nobody outside this forum would make, so I ain't buying it.
Sense.
He will be a great buy.
This thread is making my head hurt.
Is Coleman top class? No. Does he have defensive flaws? Yes. Would he be my first choice RB to bring in? No. Will he be overpriced? Yes.
If I had been in charge we'd have gone for all of Alves, Darmian and Clyne over Coleman, if only because the latter two would be much cheaper.
So, with all that said, I don't really think I overrate Coleman. Yet even at that he is still a) one of the best right backs in the league, b) a clear and definite improvement on Valencia.
I don't think those are extravagant claims, especially since Valencia still doesn't even look comfortable playing in his new role as a fullback.
If you think Valencia is on par with Coleman then you are basically saying that the relatively average winger we've pushed into a fullback role out of necessity is now actually one of the best fullbacks in the league. That strikes me as a classically Rawkish argument that nobody outside this forum would make, so I ain't buying it.
You said it all.
He'd be a great signing. No debate.
It's interesting but ultimately pointless hahaha!
Look at it this way: Over the last three seasons Coleman has had better attacking output as a fullback than Valencia has had as winger/fullback. He has managed this while playing fewer games and surrounded by inferior teammates. I don't get why you are focusing on crossing in particular when the two players' general attacking play is surely more relevant?
Plus, Coleman could be quite weak at crossing and still be an improvement on Valencia. Surely you should be highlighting something Valencia is actually better at?
Isn't he the one who is really good going forward and can take out a few defenders using his pace? Sorry, I've not seen much of him.
Seriously? Rafael? He's finished and rightfully so. Can't stay fit, still rash...just as he was when he first came. Time to move on and get someone reliable.
Same with Anderson, Nani, Welbeck etc etc. You give them the chance to stake a claim. If they don't take it after years of having a chance, they never will. Have to move on.
I don't think anyone doubts his attacking ability being better, that's without question.
However he hasn't played fewer games, he's actually played more often than any of our defenders the last two seasons. People wonder why stats are brought into the argument? It's because false statements are made (purposefully or inadvertently it doesn't matter), but when you make statements to suit your own agenda to attempt to discredit anothers then it's to be expected. Just for the record, Coleman played an extra ten games more than Valencia, 5 of those in the league.
As for crossing, Valencia actually has more assists than Coleman, that's something he is better at, no doubt people here will discredit him that as well now. I think its more than fair to assume with them both being RB's that those assits came from crosses. Coleman just happens to get himself into better scoring opportunities quite clearly, hence he scores more often.
Give them Rafa plus a bit of cash
I understand why you might think that but theres a movement in football where fullbacks are slowly adapting to be defensive midfielders. The likes of alaba and lahm in particular have adapted to cover the defensive midfield areas. When van gaal said that mcnair could be our RB i assumed it was due to his past as a defensive midfielder.
The way both blind and mcnair play are similar; covering everything up to the half line, heads up approach and passing to the best possible player. That is whats important now IMO.
I recall the game against chelsea this season; alot of our fans were very happy with shaw's performance because he was tearing up the flanks and crossing the ball every 5 mins.
However, we as a team dont play like that and we as a possesion team cant afford our fullbacks to cross the ball and possibly lose possesion especially since all 3 of our strikers play better football on the floor.
Thanks mate. Would love to crack the bernabeau like a chocolate bar over their constant annoyance!
The whoscored stats I'm looking at have Coleman playing fewer games than Valencia since 12/13. Unless they're wrong...
Also, Valencia was crossing the ball in for the likes of Rooney and RvP whereas Coleman was crossing the ball in for Lukaku and Christ knows who else. Valencia *should* be getting more assists given he played as a winger and in a better team.
I don't think Coleman would be remotely worth the 20m+ fee Everton would rip us off for.
Anyone want to answer this for me?
If we are playing possesion football and in particular playing without a targetman such as benteke etc; why exactly do we need a fullback who excels in bombarding the flanks and crossing?
If we are playing possesion football and in particular playing without a targetman such as benteke etc; why exactly do we need a fullback who excels in bombarding the flanks and crossing?
Quite ironic because you've just done that. Valencia has made 5 more appearances the last 3 seasons. Don't know why you are talking about two season as he never said that. And you've just made a false statement about Coleman playing 10 more games, 5 in the league. Now did you do this on purpose or inadvertently? Never mind, it doesn't matter.
That's an interesting comparison with Blind and there are 2 or 3 fullbacks that are doubling in midfield these days, but I think LvG just got carried away with the good cup performance McNair had at RB, and whichever position he ends up in I think he's a ways off being a regular for us. The Shaw performance was a good one I think as his balls were on the ground and accurate for our runners, he wasn't smashing aerial balls over, that to me is good modern fullback play, the type you see from Carvajal, Alves and Rodriguez to name a few.
The main thing though is we need to buy for the here and now in a few positions, it can't all be potential. McNair will get games and progress while Coleman is the starting RB and a big upgrade on Valencia there for a few seasons.
This thread is making my head hurt.
Is Coleman top class? No. Does he have defensive flaws? Yes. Would he be my first choice RB to bring in? No. Will he be overpriced? Yes.
If I had been in charge we'd have gone for all of Alves, Darmian and Clyne over Coleman, if only because the latter two would be much cheaper.
So, with all that said, I don't really think I overrate Coleman. Yet even at that he is still a) one of the best right backs in the league, b) a clear and definite improvement on Valencia.
I don't think those are extravagant claims, especially since Valencia still doesn't even look comfortable playing in his new role as a fullback.
If you think Valencia is on par with Coleman then you are basically saying that the relatively average winger we've pushed into a fullback role out of necessity is now actually one of the best fullbacks in the league. That strikes me as a classically Rawkish argument that nobody outside this forum would make, so I ain't buying it.
Well said. I dont mind Valencia as a backup.
Darmain would be really worth a close look, they would sell him for 20m Euros, thats what they (someone from Torino i think) said earlier in the summer.
Can't say I've seen much / any of Darmain. What type of fullback is he? Would you say he's better than Coleman?
As @LilRicky so helpfully pointed out, he is more of a goalscoring threat than he is a crosser. Though I maintain that I have never seen Coleman repeatedly smash the ball off the nearest defender as often as I have Valencia.
meant Darmian
Didn't even realise you misspelled it. Have you seen much of him?
Dunno why everyone is getting stressed about this, firstly I can't see Everton selling and IF they did it would be for top dollar which Woody wouldn't entertain.
Coleman
12/13 - 24 - assists - 5
13/14 - 34 - assists - 2
14/15 - 36 - assists - 2
5 European Games
Total - 94 (99 incl. Europe) -
http://www.whoscored.com/Players/31826/History/Seamus-Coleman
Valencia
12/13 - 24 - assists - 5
13/14 - 29 - assists - 3
15/15 - 20 - assists - 2
11 European games
Total 73 (84)
http://www.whoscored.com/Players/18296/History/Antonio-Valencia
Pretty sure you're missing substitute appearances for a start. Add them in and get back to me.
Pretty sure you're missing substitute appearances for a start. Add them in and get back to me.
sure didn't I know you were going to say that
Think I'd prefer to go off starts rather than sub apps that could be in injury time for example. They are counted individually for a reason sully. If you want, go dig run through those sub apps and you'll see how effective they are.
Something around 10 games including some Italy games. I basically watched him against the top teams from the Seria A and Palermo ( because we got linked with Dybala).
I like him, it is funny that he reminds me offensively of Coleman. He really has a similar drive and a good acceleration, can cross, shoot or pick a pass. He often goes to the byline before crossing or picking someone out. Defensively he is better in my opinion. I havent seen him doing much wrong defensively, although i havent seen him that often. He just doesnt make this mistakes that i have seen from Coleman.
He would be much cheaper and is a bit younger too. I really think he would be the best option for us this summer, i said it months ago when everybody wanted Clyne. But it seems we arent interested or we do it behind the scenes. This transfer should be wrapped up pretty quickly if we wanted him, there isnt much to do.
I thought he was Bayern bound, but they just offered 15m.
Not looking to get involved in this debate and sorry if you already mentioned it, but who do you want us to get as RB?
Cheers, thanks for that. Sounds like a proper fullback and I'm surprised we haven't been linked with him; well no proper links anyway. I've heard good things about him for a while now but haven't got to see him play as of yet. All things considered, it's highly unlikely he'll be at Torino at the end of the summer, by the sounds of it. Hopefully behind the scenes we are interested.
I know it was long shot but Alves was the ideal candidate, always a long shot of course. As it stands right now the options are slim, admittedly I've not seen much of Fabinho, so I can't say there.
Of the right backs I've seen, I'd probably go for Carvajal, in the midst of a transfer war with Madrid at the moment. Make sense to bring up his name I'd of thought? Darmian is good shout too. Juan Fran probably a very long shot.
I think on the whole Valencia wasn't bad. One thing I noticed in Everton games was that their back line was extremely bad this season and Coleman and Baines were a shadow of 2 years back. Coleman lost his winger a lot of times. One such case was the Di Maria goal vs them at OT. Also the Chelsea game in which they conceded 6 come to mind.
Valencia needs to benched. I don't deny it. But I think he has Been harshly criticised. From what I've seen he was defensively good. He made a lot of crucial interceptions and tackles. One I remember him holding off aguero in the Derby when aguero was through on goal(even though aguero had a heavy touch he would have normally got to the ball). Unlike Rafael he doesn't get bullied off the ball and he is very strong. He obviously made mistakes but other than the arsenal f a cup game and the Everton game nothing else major comes to mind. Jones smalling rojo blind have made equal if not more mistakes in sure. I thought he even handled the likes of Sanchez hazard and all reasonably well compared to Clyne and many other regular full backs. He hadn't got caught out many times at least not since this year beginning.
Valencia is pretty shit at crossing though and that is why I want him replaced but I think we need an upgrade and I don't think Clyne or Coleman is one. why waste 25 mill for something you already have?
Valencia needs to benched. I don't deny it. But I think he has Been harshly criticised. From what I've seen he was defensively good. He made a lot of crucial interceptions and tackles. One I remember him holding off aguero in the Derby when aguero was through on goal(even though aguero had a heavy touch he would have normally got to the ball). Unlike Rafael he doesn't get bullied off the ball and he is very strong. He obviously made mistakes but other than the arsenal f a cup game and the Everton game nothing else major comes to mind. Jones smalling rojo blind have made equal if not more mistakes in sure. I thought he even handled the likes of Sanchez hazard and all reasonably well compared to Clyne and many other regular full backs. He hadn't got caught out many times at least not since this year beginning.
Valencia is pretty shit at crossing though and that is why I want him replaced but I think we need an upgrade and I don't think Clyne or Coleman is one. why waste 25 mill for something you already have?
I dont know if you remember neville doing an analysis on our games vs liverpool and city and paid particular attention to how narrow we played. Although it could be just a one off formation based on the personnel; however i think its to do with keeping the defence compact.
Its one of the reasons why even if rafael was fit; i think he woukd struggle to get in to the team because he is all about width.
Remember that most of his career has been
Coleman and Baines looked like very good defenders under Moyes
This is pure martinez. He looked okay building on Moyes' defence. The more they get used to his style the more they lose defensive discipline. Anyone who saw Martinez' erratic wigan side will know that a good defence on paper can look like one of the worst units in the history of the premiership
Coleman and Baines looked like very good defenders under Moyes
The idea of Alves grew on me and he would have been the ideal stop-gap. Fabinho is quite good , similar in his approach to the role as Valencia, more defensive than offensive, good passer.
I always thought Carvajal was the best shout of getting a player in the De Gea deal, but instead it seems we have went full tilt for Ramos, can't see us taking two players off them in one summer. I like Darmian, he's always looked good for Italy, I would be happy enough with him.
Shouldn't probably bring it up but Ramos can play RB also. I suggested it on the Ramos thread that he could be cover for when Valencia was injured or was in need of rest and of course people flipped the lid!
Wings backs- shooting and crossing dont really go well with a possesion based team. I just really doubt van gaal looked at coleman and thought " yep coleman is the man we have needed all along". I mean valencia is constantly brutalised because he doesnt take his man on and passes the ball to the nearest player.
When every other player on the pitch does it- its fine; when valencia does it- its because he can't take a man on. We are told to keep possesion and not lose the ball needlessly.
When every other player on the pitch does it- its fine; when valencia does it- its because he can't take a man on. We are told to keep possesion and not lose the ball needlessly.