Still furious that Rafael doesn't get any playtime whatsoever and for god knows what reason Valencia plays. We dont need an RB. We need Rafael to get back in.
Seamus Coleman
- Thread starter Morpheus 7
- Start date
No, he was, that's why he was in the PFA team of the year.
Banging on about him like he's one of the best in Europe? Nope, no one is, you're obviously reading what you want. If you think saying that he is a massive upgrade on Valencia means that he's being made out to be one of the best in Europe, then you obviously wildly overrate Valencia. I don't rate Clyne particularly highly, but he would also be an upgrade. Valencia isn't even a natural RB for feck sake.
You're arguing with yourself here really. You have acknowledged that we need a RB and that Coleman is an upgrade, and that's all everyone else is saying. So, again, what's your point? As I said, I'm not overly fussed on signing him but if we did, then that's fine with me as he is a huge upgrade on Valencia.
He's definitely an upgrade on what we have. How much of an upgrade and whether it's worth the price is another issue however. I would take him though. He's better than Clyne too, especially going forward where he can actually be quite exciting at times. I don't see many more viable options either and it's a position we definitely need to strengthen. Can't say much for this Fabinho guy as I've never seen him play. The fact that Coleman has played well at Premier League level for a few years would mean I'm inclined to choose him over someone from the French League. Plus it never hurts to add more Irish players.
I don't over rate Valencia, I give credit where it's due. I do think we need a specialist RB and if were going to cough up an approx figure of €25-30m I'm sure there are better to be found in any of Europes top leagues.
For me, Coleman is not a massive upgrade on Valencia at all, minimal possibly. Your completely over praising Coleman as far as I'm concerned. He was relatively piss poor last season and your suggesting cause he had a good season the one before last that makes him a "massive" upgrade.
Someone said it above that he if we bought him there's nothing to suggest he could hold down a regular starting place, Valencia and Coleman would probably share the spot equally because there is little to nothing between the two and I've a feeling LVG is quite fond of Valencia at RB.
Final time I'll say it, the only thing that'll improve is our attack down the right flank. We'll still have someone as defensively weak as Valencia though at RB.
Jesus you're tedious, mate. He is a massive upgrade over Valencia and that's not overrating him, it's clear as day. Piss poor last season? Righteo, Everton were woeful but Coleman still had a solid consistent season. What drivel. As I said, I would take or leave him, but he's far better than Valencia who is a makeshift RB.
Coleman is pretty good and Prem hardened, but in all honesty, I don't think there would be a significant improvement in attack or defense over what we have now. We should be going after the best RB in the world, or a player who is on the cusp of becoming world class, much as we did when we landed Evra and Vidic a decade ago.
As are you with your "massive".
Look its an open forum, your going to get different opinions. Just because they aren't the same as your doesn't make them tedious or whatever else you want o add.
Yep, he was very much contrasting to the previous season for me. His performances definitely dropped off last season to the previous, idiotic to suggest otherwise.
For me I've only one gripe with Valencia and that he is a one trick pony and gets on my tits with his insistence of having to get to the by line to drill it aimlessly along the ground.
Anyway, obviously one we'll have to disagree on.
Completely agree.
Alves was always a long shot, had no reason to leave Barca really, anywhere else was a step down. For the money Everton will expect from us I'm sure we could get someone better from Europe.
As are you with your "massive".
Look its an open forum, your going to get different opinions. Just because they aren't the same as your doesn't make them tedious or whatever else you want o add.
Yep, he was very much contrasting to the previous season for me. His performances definitely dropped off last season to the previous, idiotic to suggest otherwise.
For me I've only one gripe with Valencia and that he is a one trick pony and gets on my tits with his insistence of having to get to the by line to drill it aimlessly along the ground.
Anyway, obviously one we'll have to disagree on.
Opinions are all well and good. However, you waded in here accusing people of saying that Coleman is one of the best RB's in Europe. No one, absolutely no one, insinuated such a thing. Then you felt the need for a stupid green smiley when stating that he isn't even the best RB in the league; well he would be in the top 3, so it's hardly outrageous and needs a green smiley. Lets put it into context; there is a serious derth of quality fullbacks in the league, so Coleman being amoungst the best is by default more than anything. You also said he was 'piss poor' last season, again that isn't true, he was a solid 7 I would say and chipped in with 5 goals and 2 assists. So I can only assume you didn't watch him much if you are making such a grandstand statement. Again, his performances weren't as good as 13/14 when he was the best RB in the league, but this has been acknowledged. You then talk about the fee; well this has also been acknowledged that the mooted price is way too much. All in all, you basically said what others have said but chose to do so in an argumentative manner.
So you basically chose to be extremely pedantic over wording. I said he would be a huge upgrade whereas you said he would be an upgrade, obviously you rate Valencia higher than I do, no big deal. I have no idea why you sought out such a long winded pedantic debate over wording.
I just can't believe how oblivious some posters are to how bad Valencia is at times at RB, he's given such a restricted role and still messes up frequently. I find it even stranger when you consider how great Rafael has been in recent (ish) years.
Coleman isn't world class but he's decent and that's better than a struggling winger converted to RB.
Coleman isn't world class but he's decent and that's better than a struggling winger converted to RB.
Being better than Valencia is no achievement. The 25 million fee is hopefully nonsense. You'd expect one of the world's best for that fee.
I am surprised at the negativity on this one, I think he has a lot to offer and would significantly improve our attack down the right while also offering a better understanding of the role defensively than Valencia. If the market was flooded with great RB's then I could understand as we know Everton will hold us to ransom on the fee, but it's not and I don't see a better choice out there right now personally.
Spot on, on both counts. You would swear saying Coleman is a massive upgrade over Valencia is like saying that Heskey would be a massive upgrade over Messi. Some people are very precious. Valencia isn't cut out to be our starting RB, it's as simple as that. I've lost count of the amount of attacks that break down through Valencia in the final third. I would keep him as he has a role as a squad player but I hope, desperately hope, that we sign a RB this summer. Whether it's Coleman or not, I'm not bothered.
The money mooted for Coleman is ludicrous but part and parcel of buying proven PL talent, unfortunately. For that money I would much rather look elsewhere.
I actually rate Coleman but think we can do much better. On the other hand, LvG seems to often rate players who are below the galactico level, but still represent valuable pieces to his squad philosophy.
People need to realise that there is a distinction between Valencia's technical ability, which is sound, and his poor attacking play. The latter doesn't equal the former. Valencia has extremely consistent ball control, his passing is reliable and he is comfortable under an opposition press.
He's a bit shit too, of course, but technical ability is the least of his problems.
He's a bit shit too, of course, but technical ability is the least of his problems.
Yup, nout wrong with his technical ability. His deficiencies become abundantly clear when he gets into the final third. But yeah, his technical ability is the least of his worries.
We are (seemingly) about to pay that for Schneiderlin, I would say him and Coleman are comparable, both are good players who are PL proven and at the right age to give us their best years, it's merely the going rate these days.
Not for fullbacks.
Well if Clyne is (allegedly) going for £12m - £13m, then Coleman should be in a similar bracket. The quoted price is way too much.
Fullbacks are a huge part of the modern game, Real Madrid just paid €30M for one and we paid £30M for a 19 year old one last summer. Coleman has 4 years left on his deal, we can't expect them to sell one of their main players for £15M when they are under no pressure to do so.
I posted a comparison matrix firstly. This was posted quite early this morning before other posters gave their sentiments to the mornings news.
It was actually other people who "waded" in then saying stats are pointless as they only tell some of the story, which I then agreed with. I think you need to go back and read through the thread again Robbie.
He got 3 goals with 2 assists, where are the other two coming from? The two goals in the Europa? I was comparing league stats, being as that's our bread and butter. Aside from Squawka (which I used originally), Whoscored also have Valencia with a higher rating for the season for his performances over Coleman also. But I'm supposed to take your word for it as him being a massive upgrade? Sorry, but I'm going on data collected throughout the season and using it as a guide AND putting that with what I've also seen from the guy last season myself which wasn't great. But to further prove what I've been saying all along, yes Coleman would give us more attacking options than Valencia has, but defensively Valencia has probably been better.
For me a minimal upgrade is Coleman or Clyne, A massive upgrade is Zabaletta, Alves, Lahm etc etc.... Do you see the difference and why the wording will cause confusion / debate?
Difference is a 1 year or a 4 year contract. There aren't many good rightbacks available, if van Gaal decides Coleman is his best bet I don't care what we pay. Otherwise we'd go for unproven talent and probably see Valencia playing regularly.
No it was you wading in, at least where I'm concerned anyway. Yep, I'm giving overall stats. Valencia did indeed score a higher average rating, but Coleman scored 6.93 on Whoscored, so that's hardly 'piss poor', Ricky lad, is it?
I'm still failing to see your point. You have just reiterated what others have said but in an argumentative manner. You're genuinely baffling me. No one said Coleman is anything other than a good player and an upgrade over Valencia. I am standing by my wording of a 'massive' upgrade as I don't rate Valencia as a RB. There's not much of a difference between Zabaleta and Coleman so that's a poor choice, to be honest. No I don't see how there was confusion at all, I genuinely think you're seriously pedantic. I think you need to accept that a-lot of people clearly don't rate Tony V quite as highly as you.
The feck is a comparison matrix?!
It's on Squawka, you can compare players.
"What's a squawka" - I'm waiting for that reply!
Oh I agree. It's par for the course as I said. You want PL proven talent, you pay the price. If we did pay £20m or so for Coleman, we could potentially have a very good RB for the next 6/7 seasons. People would look back and call it great business. Alternatively it could go the other way. If we do end up with him, the fee will be heavily scrutinised, for the first few months anyway.
Basically compares players by stats I think. Pointless
Basically compares players by stats I think. Pointless
It's become the new tool to 'win' a good ouel Internet forum debate. Terrible invention.
I get that I just think if we are not going to be able to get a player in that top bracket we are better sticking with what we have. I'm not a huge fan of Valencia at right back, I don't see him as the huge gaping hole in our defence he is made out to be though.
That wasn't actually my original question that was after the comment about 99% of players being better technically than Valencia. My original point was that the number one complaint I see about Valencia normally is his crossing yet we are going to spend all that money to upgrade to a player who isn't exactly top drawer at it himself which seems stupid to me, especially at the price mentioned. I'm still to see an answer on that apart from you saying who cares about the money but the fact is we don't have an endless pot of money and spending that money will be expected to sort that position out for the next 3/4 years at least.
Or let me guess next year when another slight improvement on Coleman comes along we just blow another £25 million because we don't care it's not our money? I'd hate to see us become like that
If we could get Coleman for £15m it would be a good deal. But Everton are sure to be looking £25-30m now that he signed a new contract for some reason.
At that price we could surely find a better Right Back than Coleman.
At that price we could surely find a better Right Back than Coleman.
No winning, just people expressing their opinions.
I didn't use it as a tool to win at all, simply posted it because it can be a quick fire guide to a players performance. By no means is it the be all and end all of the debate.
Anyway's I'm not going to continue debating over Coleman with you as we obviously see things differently.
Calm down, it was obviously said in jest. I'm not a big fan of the whole stats lark, for future reference. Stats can be skewed to suit either side of a debate and don't tell the whole story.
No Valencia's main draw back is by far his defensive positioning, then his defensive capabilities. He's not the worst crosser, but he's a bit shit. Coleman is a good crosser, I don't understand why you don't think he is.
I never said I don't care about the money, I said it isn't our concern. If the people in charge of transfers at our club think parting with £20m+ for Coleman is wise then I'll be happy with that too. The money shouldn't be our concern because truth be told we could easily afford £20m on Coleman.
Aye I know! You get defenders like Terry being at the bottom of a 4 way comparison with Fonte, Jones and Shawcross or something
Aye I know! You get defenders like Terry being at the bottom of a 4 way comparison with Fonte, Jones and Shawcross or something
It's mental. I'm slowly starting to rather dislike it. It's being used to 'prove' all sorts.
Those are exorbitant prices. Everyone knows we overpaid for Shaw.
I just dont see this happening. Is coleman superior defensively to valencia? Is he better at attacking than rafael? Is he more of a talent than Mcnair?
Even if he is; its a very marginal upgrade and will only be given benefits over doubts due to him being a new signing. I believe that Van Gaal sees something in Mcnair; someone who i believe could be a top player within a year or two max.
Even if he is; its a very marginal upgrade and will only be given benefits over doubts due to him being a new signing. I believe that Van Gaal sees something in Mcnair; someone who i believe could be a top player within a year or two max.
Those are simply the going prices when big clubs come calling, the smaller teams are most likely sick of constantly losing their best players so they are going to get their pound of flesh.
Cracking username.