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Thats the thing though. Y'all assume he is playing the traditional second man in midfield who is involved in the build up. Its been beyond obvious for months now that is NOT how we set up! Yet folks go on and on pretend that it is!
This the point where statistics can't help you. You are yet again comparing chalk and cheese. Bissouma for Spurs is employed as a traditional second man in midfield with a brief to dominate ball winning. United in comparison have been employing this season a vertical very high press. Resulting in amongst the highest PPDA in the league and also different people winning and intercepting balls regularly due to the collective press. It is why for example Casemiro's tackle statistics are down from last season because he and his partner are not the sole focus of ball winning. Plus why when the press is breached, if we make the mistake of bombing both fullbacks on he has gottem isolated trying to shield the defence. Mctominay is heavily involved in this collective pressing and has been more effective at it than an Eriksen.
The here is people want to insist on acting like what other players do for other clubs iin completely different tactic set up to ours are ground to judge our players. Mctominay is just the lattest victim. People do it with our fullbacks, both our center midfield postikns and even Bruno's role in the team.
Exactly. It bothers me no end that many of our fans prefer to concentrate on our player weaknesses in a tactical set ups we don't even employ, rather than our strengths in what we do employ and how that can be bettered.It is lazy, instead of adapting their critique to his new role it is the same old tired cliches. That fellow who took issue with the "hiding from the ball" phrase was correct.
The annoying thing is there are plenty of things to criticize him for and really we would be better off with him out of the team and a better player involved but he is contributing what he can with what he is being asked to do. As said before hold your nose until he is out of the team.
Im not arguing, thats why I went with the poundshop version analysis.
But he’s not a good squad player. Good squad players are those that can fit into how your first XI plays and brings similar qualities but at a lower level. He’s a completely different style of player that brings no real quality into a top level aspiring midfield. Being able to pop up in the box from midfield and being a good finisher is so far down the list of what you need as a higher quality side looking to play modern football and control games.
Players in which you have to completely alter tactics or aren’t good squad players.
Fellaini was actually a nuisance and threat to opponents. if McT was under 6ft he wouldnt have had a career hereTo me he’s basically Fellaini except the goals come mostly from his feet than his head. Obviously a more technical player, but the value and what both brought to the table is incredibly similar. Big midfielders that aren’t actually good defensively and are mostly foul merchants. Most effective in the opponents box. Absolute 0’s if asked to distribute the ball progressively.
This have been said so many times but there are still those who keep with their agenda. McTominay is a part of this team with his qualities. They are different to other players qualities. Nothing strange about that. You can't ask from him what you ask from Fernandes. You can't ask from him what you ask from Rashford. You can't ask from him what you sak from Shaw. I don't understand how hard it is to understand that.His job and skill set have NEVER been to control midfield. He has always been employed for his physicality, ball winning and ball carrying. By every manager who has employed him. Even ETH currently doesn't use him in the build up tactically. Yet it does'nt stop people in here. The way folks constantly moan that "he can't control games" or "show for the ball" is classic case of insisting on judging a fish on tree climbing. Not on what it is actually capable of doing
I don't really understand that argumentation line. I don't really want to see United become a team that is trying to set up to maximize the output of limited players like McTominay. You act as if his stats mostly originate from his role, but those stats never looked good to begin with. They didn't even look good next to Fred. I can understand being defensive against overly harsh criticism but I don't really see it going away with this sort of explanations as it falls short so obviously.His job and skill set have NEVER been to control midfield. He has always been employed for his physicality, ball winning and ball carrying. By every manager who has employed him. Even ETH currently doesn't use him in the build up tactically. Yet it does'nt stop people in here. The way folks constantly moan that "he can't control games" or "show for the ball" is classic case of insisting on judging a fish on tree climbing. Not on what it is actually capable of doing.
Very good post. Only one thing to add - second part of the sentence reads as if McTominay had some great strength that would be worth it catering too. But he really doesn't.He's playing as the second man in midfield, when all his strengths are geared towards playing as the third man.
...
You look into a different era of football. Times have changed. Fitness levels increased dramatically. Organisation improved, synchronized pressing structures are more or less the default mode now. Look how Pep comes up with new ideas every 1.5 years who to drag into midfield to increase numbers there - false 9, inverting fullbacks, Stones pushing up... United should in no case try to replicate a system from 15 years ago just because it used to work. Midfield is where games are won and lost. We are losing since more than 10 years because we seem to think 2 midfielders should be enough to win the battle. It isn't! I'd understand it, if we had Gullit and Vidal playing there, but we are as far away from that as it gets. Based on our players, we probably should play 4 midfielders. Considering the "quality" of our wingers, it might even be a net win...This isn't completly accurrate at all though.
In a 4-3-3 for example you don't need all 3 midfielders to be involved in build up to control midfield. Just the deepest and one of the side midfielders. Mourinho set up like that for years first at Porto then at Chelsea
Even in a 4-3-1-2 that Ancelotti famously employed a Milan. You can play one elite deep lying controller flanked by two dedicated ball carrying destroyers either side with a number 10 or two just ahead. You'd control it just the same. Milan proved this for years with Gatusso and Ambrosini flanking an elite deep playmaker like Pirlo
And yet we are not doing it. Why? Because our fullbacks aren't really doing it nor is there anything more than hope that they are capable of it. And Bruno is way better closer to opposition goal. Feck, if we had the exact same debate but with Bruno instead of McTominay, I'd kind of get it as Bruno does produce danger almost all the time. But for McTominay??? This is just wrong. To me, this indicates that ETH is in hard survival mode but I'd put my money that this bet is not going to pay off. Because McTominay will not produce the output needed to be worth the toll we pay for it.Control can also be established by the starting DM, one of our fullbacks becoming a second pivot player and Bruno.
Casemiro doesn't really run a game from deep, never had to do it. Mainoo has played two games and while I certainly want to see more from him, he can't be the single pivot player behind two others because he isn't as strong defensively and physically.Right now United's true issue is our utter absense of a player who can consistently run a game from deep in Casemiro and Mainoo's absence on pitch, who doesn't become an utter defensive liability in defensive transitions.
This is the current crux, isn't it? It might be alright to have one midfielder take high positions all the time, but why would that be McTominay who is alright at best but is contributing next to nothing but the odd run in the penalty box? He is a non entity in tight spaces and his passing is underwhelming. If we'd be Brentford, Westham or Burnley, I'd consider it alright to make use of a players quality like that but for United, it is awful. Especially because we have a player already (who is also limited in terms of skillset but the things he is good at he is really really good at) in Bruno. He should be the one to take McTominays position while Amrabat, Hannibal, Mount, Mainoo and Casemiro (and in very easy games Eriksen) take the other two spots. It aint great but that is the way to go.If we are going for that setup, Bruno has to move to the most advanced midfielder position while Mount is the one connecting midfield with attack - and we pray he can do that effectively. And then it's ok if Mount occasionally (20%) goes up and Bruno covers for him, but it can't be the other way around that Bruno is pushed to CM role 80% of the time.
Just my 2 cents but it rather feels like you are angry about other peoples dislike and criticism and your way of dealing with it, is declaring it nonsensical or agenda driven. At the end of the day, it is beautiful how artful the explanations are for why we suck, especially in midfield but there is one obvious answer here. I am sure most people are happy to admit that McTominay surely isn't playing like that out of mean spirit. Maybe is incapable, maybe he is instructed - but it is a factor in an equasion that produces shit. Shit results, shit football.The issue here is people want to insist on acting like what other players do for other clubs in completely different tactical set ups to ours are grounds to judge our players. Mctominay is just the lattest victim. People do it with our fullbacks, both our center midfield postions and even Bruno's role in the team.
Thats a fair comparison in terms of playing for us.To me he’s basically Fellaini except the goals come mostly from his feet than his head. Obviously a more technical player, but the value and what both brought to the table is incredibly similar. Big midfielders that aren’t actually good defensively and are mostly foul merchants. Most effective in the opponents box. Absolute 0’s if asked to distribute the ball progressively.
That is because you haven't got what I'm arguing for. You are still conflating your idealized notion of what United should be without what is being done on the ground with the tools available. Which is YOUR problem entirely. I just draw the line when the likes of you use it to throw groundless criticism at our players let lone how our manager employs them. Like your idealized template is being used.I don't really understand that argumentation line. I don't really want to see United become a team that is trying to set up to maximize the output of limited players like McTominay.
A false accusation. First, I haven't once used statistics as a basis for my argument. So I can't "put on an act" over what I not using.You act as if his stats mostly originate from his role, but those stats never looked good to begin with. They didn't even look good next to Fred.
First of all, this "recent times are different/better" doesn't fly. Tactically football has not changed very much from the era when Rinus Michel's showed up coaching the Cruyff's. Tactically there is nothing new Pep has implemented. False 9s were around since Puskas, inverted fullbacks from the time of Nilton Santos, advancing into midfield cbs from the time of Beckenbauer up to Baresi in the early 90s. The ONLY thing that improves are the fitness of the players and their understanding of tactics thanks to the improved coaching methods that allow better understanding of those timeless coaching principles. In addition every era has a group of coaches who implement those things the best.You look into a different era of football. Times have changed. Fitness levels increased dramatically. Organisation improved, synchronized pressing structures are more or less the default mode now. Look how Pep comes up with new ideas every 1.5 years who to drag into midfield to increase numbers there - false 9, inverting fullbacks, Stones pushing up... United should in no case try to replicate a system from 15 years ago just because it used to work
I strongly disagree. . We did it last season with Eriksen in the Mctominay role and one of our fullbacks alternating with Martinez to act as the second pivot. Consistently. The biggest issue this season has been injury. It has completely robbed us of the ability to consistently employ the same deep 6 to make it work consistently.And yet we are not doing it. Why? Because our fullbacks aren't really doing it nor is there anything more than hope that they are capable of it.
Nah Im not angry. Just exasperated. Ive seen our fans do this dance since the days of Fletcher, and when CR7 was classed as a one trick pony. Judging players and our tactical system based on idealized versions in their heads, and how other teams use players in those roles, rather than what actually is going on with United tacticallyJust my 2 cents but it rather feels like you are angry about other peoples dislike and criticism and your way of dealing with it, is declaring it nonsensical or agenda driven@
I haven't paid to much attention about some other threads where you have written. Where I may or may not agree with you. But I do like the look how you talk about tactics and present it. Even if it is in a very short way.That is because you haven't got what I'm arguing for. You are still conflating your idealized notion of what United should be without what is being done on the ground with the tools available. Which is YOUR problem entirely. I just draw the line when the likes of you use it to throw groundless criticism at our players let lone how our manager employs them. Like your idealized template is being used.
A false accusation. First, I haven't once used statistics as a basis for my argument. So I can't "put on an act" over what I not using.
Second, now Fred has left a host of new myth that he supposedly carried Mctominay statistically or Mctominay made him look worse has sprung up. Fred and Mctominay as a pair had similar statistics for ages. A reason they were our go to pair for big games before we signed a natural 6 like Casemiro because they offered reliable protetection. Infact of the pair Fred was more loose in possession and the original complaint about the pair was their side ways, unimaginative passing. Not emptying midfield, not positioning, not their defensive capability. All these new myths have sprung up since ETH arrived, broke up the pair and changed how they are tactically employed. Their detractors simply refuse to acknowledge the tactical instruction changes and go on pretending we are using the same traditional set up that previous bosses employed.
First of all, this "recent times are different/better" doesn't fly. Tactically football has not changed very much from the era when Rinus Michel's showed up coaching the Cruyff's. Tactically there is nothing new Pep has implemented. False 9s were around since Puskas, inverted fullbacks from the time of Nilton Santos, advancing into midfield cbs from the time of Beckenbauer up to Baresi in the early 90s. The ONLY thing that improves are the fitness of the players and their understanding of tactics thanks to the improved coaching methods that allow better understanding of those timeless coaching principles. In addition every era has a group of coaches who implement those things the best.
Second, the footballing principle that the players available dictate how a given formation is systemized has NEVER changed. You are conflating that principle with the era of football. The systems I'm talking about didn't just work 'because it was 15 years ago'. They worked because the fitted the players on hand with the tactical formation chosen. That's how for example Ancelotti recently won a UCL playing 4-3-3 in a none traditional way. Employing a combative midfielder in a front three and having his left back inverted. ETH in similar vein utilizes his 4-2-3-1 in a none conventional way!
The issue with many of you detractors of our players is not only do you have idealized versions of the formations we use and the tactical set up that acompany's them. You are convinced NO other way exists to set them up.
That is why many of you look at us play 4-2-3-1 and readily assume the second player in the 2 operates as a traditional pivot player/second midfielder. ETH never used that set up at Ajax with better technchal players. He won't start now neither. His second midfielder was always more of a 10 than a typical second midfielder. With his control of midfield being implemented by either a fullback imverting to become the second pivot player or a cb pushing into midfield, supporting a deep lying controller like De jong. Depending on how the game unfolds. That is why he so desperately wanted De Jong and why when he was forced to get Casemiro instead he chose to utilize Eriksen deeper than he would ideally have liked in his ideal set up.
I strongly disagree. . We did it last season with Eriksen in the Mctominay role and one of our fullbacks alternating with Martinez to act as the second pivot. Consistently. The biggest issue this season has been injury. It has completely robbed us of the ability to consistently employ the same deep 6 to make it work consistently.
Make no mistake about it. This system has worked before and WILL work again.
Nah Im not angry. Just exasperated. Ive seen our fans do this dance since the days of Fletcher, and when CR7 was classed as a one trick pony. Judging players and our tactical system based on idealized versions in their heads, and how other teams use players in those roles, rather than what actually is going on with United tactically
Thanks for the reply. Will get back to you in detail.Make no mistake about it. This system has worked before and WILL work again.
Spot onHe doesnt have one quality that a midfielder needs to make a midfield better. Doesnt like to have the ball, cant track runners and not a good passer.
He can end up near the goal and score but nothing else. He isnt a shit Lampard but a shit Fellaini.
He's going to be the new Phil Jones.Why is he still starting games? Why is Scott fecking mctominay still a United player? It's infuriating how we keep shite players around for years
It literally only ‘works’ if he scores. Which, for a ‘central midfielder’ is a joke. How can a midfielder need to score a goal to have ‘played well’?
