SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
It wasn’t a pandemic in November. That’s a fact.
All this finger pointing at China also misses the point. One of the biggest challenges dealing with this has been making sure medical and technical supplies getting to where they’re needed. It’s highlighted how incredibly fragile all our global supply chains are. How do you think shutting all the boarders, all over the world, (presumably what you’re suggesting should have happened?) would have done to those supply chain? And what do you think it would have done to the global economy?
Always glorious to see the spin from the big boys isn't it.
In fairness, there's nothing they could write that'd have most people pleased.
So all they can do is try and keep the "Morale" up with some positives.
Sound logic here by "Dr." Phil
The problem with politics, is that you'll instantly get Tories refuting that this happened. They'll produce some stats that apparently prove you wrong.
EDIT - I actually note someone immediately picked you up on it, and did exactly this!!
in 2005 (inflation adjusted) we spend the 22nd highest amount per capita in the world on health care
in 2010 (inflation adjusted) we spent the 21st highest amount per capita in the world on health care
in 2015 (inflation adjusted) we spent the 17th highest amount per capita in the world on health care
so yeah...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita
also if you look at GDP spend on healthcare
Germany spends 11.25%
France spends 11.31%
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.GD.ZS?most_recent_value_desc=true
look at the outcomes in both countries and clearly there is far more than a simple % spend to be taken into account as to how to get the best results
we should probably be focusing on what we could have done better - and procurement, planning, reacting quicker and having tests available being key ones that jump out... would having had extra funds available for the last 10 years have helped - probably a bit it might - would having reacted a few weeks quicker to the crisis have helped more - probably a lot
In the Nordic countries a lot of people, me included, use Snus instead of smoking. Maybe there are some benefits to that preference then. Snus is something akin to snuff, putting up under the lip. I use one box every day so constantly have nicotine going into the blood stream. Thought of stopping to save money since it is quite expensive but I might just wait a bit longer I think.
New one day record for deaths in US with 4591
https://thehill.com/homenews/news/4...s-hits-record-one-day-total-of-more-than-4500
https://thehill.com/homenews/news/4...s-hits-record-one-day-total-of-more-than-4500
Unrelated to the coronavirus, but doesn't that horrifically ruin your gums?
Belgium death numbers looking horrific and the worst in the world given size of population.
Apr 17, 2020
1. USA : 34,641 (population: 328.2 million)
2. Italy: 22,170 (pop: 60.3 million)
3. Spain: 19,351 (pop: 47 million)
4. France: 17,920 (pop: 67 million)
5. Britain: 13,729 (pop: 66.6 million)
6.Iran: 4,869 (pop: 83 million)
7. Belgium: 4,857 (pop: 11.6 million)
8. China: 4,632 (pop: 1.4 billion).
9. Germany: 4,093 ( pop: 83 million)
10. Netherlands: 3,315 ( pop: 17.2 million)
Apr 17, 2020
1. USA : 34,641 (population: 328.2 million)
2. Italy: 22,170 (pop: 60.3 million)
3. Spain: 19,351 (pop: 47 million)
4. France: 17,920 (pop: 67 million)
5. Britain: 13,729 (pop: 66.6 million)
6.Iran: 4,869 (pop: 83 million)
7. Belgium: 4,857 (pop: 11.6 million)
8. China: 4,632 (pop: 1.4 billion).
9. Germany: 4,093 ( pop: 83 million)
10. Netherlands: 3,315 ( pop: 17.2 million)
It would not be a pandemic unless it becomes a pandemic. But the intelligence was there that this could be a pandemic in the future and the purpose of intelligence is to find out in advance and then be prepared for it when it happens down the line.
No one took the intelligence seriously. Especially Trump who kept calling it a hoax. Shutting the borders is not possible because all citizens have a right to return to their countries. But testing could have been improved a lot and supply chains and distancing improved.
Most importantly good leadership in this time was needed. None of the countries had a good leader who could handle it. Not even Putin who seems to have messed it up too.
The Americans refused to accept the testing kit design by who and did their own thing which was found faulty and it delayed testing by at least more than a week.
No I don't blame the central government of China much. 6 days seems to be a reasonable and acceptable time to make such a huge decision.
Not looking good for the end of the 4th week of lockdown. Time for a mass gathering on Mancunian way.
Should pass Italy soon and we have already with the shift to 5pm cut off.
Note France is hospital death figures only
United Kingdom Dates | UK Deaths | Italy Dates | Italy Deaths | Spain Dates | Spain Deaths | France Dates | France Deaths | Germany Dates | Germany Deaths | USA Dates | USA Deaths |
Mar 8th | 3 | Feb-23rd | 3 | Mar 5th | 3 | Mar 2nd | 3 | Mar 11th | 3 | Mar 1st | 2 |
Mar 9th | 5 | Feb 24th | 7 | Mar 6th | 8 | Mar 3rd | 4 | Mar 12th | 5 | Mar 2nd | 6 |
Mar 10th | 6 | Feb 25th | 11 | Mar 7th | 10 | Mar 4th | 4 | Mar 13th | 8 | Mar 3rd | 9 |
Mar 11th | 8 | Feb 26th | 12 | Mar 8th | 17 | Mar 5th | 7 | Mar 14th | 8 | Mar 4th | 11 |
Mar 12th | 10 | Feb 27th | 17 | Mar 9th | 30 | Mar 6th | 9 | Mar 15th | 12 | Mar 5th | 11 |
Mar 13th | 11 | Feb 28th | 21 | Mar 10th | 36 | Mar 7th | 16 | Mar 16th | 12 | Mar 6th | 14 |
Mar 14th | 21 | Feb 29th | 29 | Mar 11th | 55 | Mar 8th | 19 | Mar 17th | 12 | Mar 7th | 19 |
Mar 15th | 35 | Mar 1st | 41 | Mar 12th | 86 | Mar 9th | 30 | Mar 18th | 12 | Mar 8th | 21 |
Mar 16th | 55 | Mar 2nd | 52 | Mar 13th | 133 | Mar 10th | 33 | Mar 19th | 20 | Mar 9th | 26 |
Mar 17th | 71 | Mar 3rd | 79 | Mar 14th | 196 | Mar 11th | 48 | Mar 20th | 31 | Mar 10th | 31 |
Mar 18th | 104 | Mar 4th | 107 | Mar 15th | 294 | Mar 12th | 61 | Mar 21st | 47 | Mar 11th | 37 |
Mar 19th | 144 | Mar 5th | 148 | Mar 16th | 342 | Mar 13th | 79 | Mar-22nd | 55 | Mar 12th | 41 |
Mar 20th | 177 | Mar 6th | 197 | Mar 17th | 533 | Mar 14th | 91 | Mar 23rd | 86 | Mar 13th | 49 |
Mar 21st | 233 | Mar 7th | 233 | Mar 18th | 638 | Mar 15th | 127 | Mar 24th | 114 | Mar 14th | 55 |
Mar 22nd | 281 | Mar 8th | 366 | Mar 19th | 833 | Mar 16th | 148 | Mar 25th | 149 | Mar 15th | 62 |
Mar 23rd | 335 | Mar 9th | 463 | Mar 20th | 1,093 | Mar 17th | 175 | Mar 26th | 198 | Mar 16th | 76 |
Mar 24th | 422 | Mar 10th | 631 | Mar 21st | 1,381 | Mar 18th | 244 | Mar 27th | 253 | Mar 17th | 97 |
Mar 25th | 468 | Mar 11th | 827 | Mar 22nd | 1,813 | Mar 19th | 372 | Mar 28th | 325 | Mar 18th | 123 |
Mar 26th | 578 | Mar 12th | 1,016 | Mar 23rd | 2,207 | Mar 20th | 450 | Mar 29th | 389 | Mar19th | 175 |
Mar 27th | 759 | Mar 13th | 1,266 | Mar 24th | 2,696 | Mar 21st | 562 | Mar 30th | 455 | Mar 20th | 230 |
Mar 28th | 1,019 | Mar 14th | 1,441 | Mar 25th | 3,434 | Mar 22nd | 674 | Mar 31st | 600 | Mar 21st | 298 |
Mar 29th | 1,228 | Mar 15th | 1,809 | Mar 26th | 4,145 | Mar 23rd | 860 | Apr 1st | 732 | Mar 22nd | 408 |
Mar 30th | 1,408 | Mar 16th | 2,158 | Mar 27th | 4,858 | Mar 24th | 1100 | Apr 2nd | 872 | Mar 23rd | 519 |
Mar 31st | 1,789 | Mar 17th | 2,503 | Mar 28th | 5,690 | Mar 25th | 1331 | Apr 3rd | 1,017 | Mar 24th | 681 |
Apr 1st | 2,352 | Mar 18th | 2,978 | Mar 29th | 6,528 | Mar 26th | 1,696 | Apr 4th | 1,158 | Mar 25th | 906 |
Apr 2nd | 2,921 | Mar 19th | 3,405 | Mar 30th | 7,340 | Mar 27th | 1,995 | Apr 5th | 1,342 | Mar 26th | 1,159 |
Apr 3rd | 3,605 | Mar 20th | 4,032 | Mar 31st | 8,189 | Mar 28th | 2,314 | Apr 6th | 1,434 | Mar 27th | 1,592 |
Apr 4th | 4,313 | Mar 21st | 4,825 | Apr 1st | 9,053 | Mar 29th | 2,606 | Apr 7th | 1,607 | Mar 28th | 2,039 |
Apr 5th | 4,934 | Mar 22nd | 5,475 | Apr 2nd | 10,003 | Mar 30th | 3,024 | Apr 8th | 1,861 | Mar 29th | 2,431 |
Apr 6th | 5,373 | Mar 23rd | 6,077 | Apr 3rd | 10,935 | Mar 31st | 3,523 | Apr 9th | 2,107 | Mar 30th | 2,985 |
Apr 7th | 6,159 | Mar 24th | 6,820 | Apr 4th | 11,744 | Apr 1st | 4,032 | Apr 10th | 2,373 | Mar 31st | 3,806 |
Apr 8th | 7,097 | Mar 25th | 7,503 | Apr 5th | 12,418 | Apr 2nd | 4,503 | Apr 11th | 2,544 | Apr 1st | 4,746 |
Apr 9th | 7,978 | Mar 26th | 8,215 | Apr 6th | 13,055 | Apr 3rd | 5,091 | Apr 12th | 2,673 | Apr 2nd | 5,821 |
Apr 10th | 8,958 | Mar 27th | 9,134 | Apr 7th | 13,798 | Apr 4th | 5,532 | Apr 13th | 2,799 | Apr 3rd | 7,007 |
Apr 11th | 9,875 | Mar 28th | 10,023 | Apr 8th | 14,555 | Apr 5th | 5,889 | Apr 14th | 2,969 | Apr 4th | 8,359 |
Apr 12th | 10,612 | Mar 29th | 10,779 | Apr 9th | 15,238 | Apr 6th | 6,494 | Apr 15th | 3,254 | Apr 5th | 9,534 |
Apr 13th | 11,329 | Mar 30th | 11,591 | Apr 10th | 15,843 | Apr 7th | 7,091 | Apr 16th | 3,569 | Apr 6th | 10,748 |
Apr 14th | 12,107 | Mar 31st | 12,428 | Apr 11th | 16,353 | Apr 8th | 7,632 | Apr 17th | 3,868 | Apr 7th | 12,674 |
Apr 15th | 12,868 | Apr 1st | 13,155 | Apr 12th | 16,972 | Apr 9th | 8,044 | Apr 18th | | Apr 8th | 14,610 |
Apr 16th | 13,729 | Apr 2nd | 13,915 | Apr 13th | 17,489 | Apr 10th | 8,598 | Apr 19th | | Apr 9th | 16,466 |
Apr 17th | 14,576 | Apr 3rd | 14,681 | Apr 14th | 18,056 | Apr 11th | 8,943 | Apr 20th | | Apr 10th | 18,544 |
Apr 18th | | Apr 4th | 15,362 | Apr 15th | 18,579 | Apr 12th | 9,258 | Apr 21st | | Apr 11th | 20,454 |
Apr 19th | | Apr 5th | 15,887 | Apr 16th | 19,130 | Apr 13th | 9,588 | Apr 22nd | | Apr 12th | 21,936 |
Apr 20th | | Apr 6th | 16,523 | Apr 17th | | Apr 14th | 10,129 | Apr 23rd | | Apr 13th | 23,398 |
Apr 21st | | Apr 7th | 17,127 | Apr 18th | | Apr 15th | 10,643 | Apr 24th | | Apr 14th | 25,776 |
| | Apr 8th | 17,669 | Apr 19th | | Apr 16th | 11,060 | Apr 25th | | Apr 15th | 28,214 |
| | Apr 9th | 18,279 | Apr 20th | | Apr 17th | | | | Apr 16th | 30,355 |
Should pass Italy soon and we have already with the shift to 5pm cut off.
Note France is hospital death figures only
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Yeah, they look past the peak to me.
You sure about that?
The NHS does not have a problem with it's overall budget.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ou...o-to-the-nhs-and-how-has-he-got-away-with-it/
BMA website - “The NHS is overstretched and underfunded, putting health services under unsustainable pressure. The BMA is calling on the government to close the NHS funding gap and bring the UK’s health spend in line with that of other European nations”
The NHS will no longer be financially sustainable and patients will continue to face “dangerously” long waiting times for cancer treatment and emergency care under the government’s plans for the health service, Boris Johnson has been warned.
A decade of underfunding has resulted in a “dire situation”: hospital bed numbers are at a record low, waiting lists are the longest since records began and staff are working in an “intolerable climate of stress”.
The stark warning was issued in a two-page memo sent to the prime minister by Dr Chaand Nagpaul, chairman of the British Medical Association (BMA)
You seriously want to argue overall funding for the NHS has not been a problem?
Again, this has been explained tons of times. Belgium counts a different way from most of it's neighbors. People who die in nursing homes and show a sympton, but aren't tested; are counted as a Covid-19 death too. So there are a lot of deaths in nursing homes that aren't actually confirmed as Covid-19 deaths, but nonetheless counted. Deaths in nursing homes are more than 70% of all Covid 19 deaths here.
If we wouldn't count them, as say the Netherlands do, we'd have a smaller amount of Covid 19 deaths per capita than them.
I posted this a while ago (numbers have changed):
Current deaths
BE: 3600
NL: 2740
IF both countries would have the same way of registring COVID-19 deaths:
BE: 1900
NL: 2740
The expert groups in Belgium say that they rather exagerate the number than take it too lighthearted.
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That number from the US today is horrific.
It eats away little by little at the gums but not very much.I have used it like this for 15 years and you can not see anything except maybe in the bak of the corner teeth. Compared to when I smoked, the side effects are very small overall. My uncles have used snus their whole lives and no diseases, heart problems or anything. Still have their gums as well. But they did not use portions but the loose weight stuff. I think Portion snuff is harder on the gums so maybe it will show more effect after another 15 years.
Those two statements don't necessarily contradict themselves, I think: could be that smoking makes it harder for the virus to take a hold, but once it does you get the effect you'd expect in someone who damaged their lungs?!
Slovenia's institute for public health has pretty much said that we have managed to control the epidemic with the public distancing measures in place. There are 365 active cases and most of the spread has been limited to health care facilities. They will also start a random testing program with 1000 participants which should give us a decent idea of how the nation has been affected.
Big numbers again but slightly down from yesterday which seems like it'll be the biggest number of the week/weekend. We'll likely see a decline until Tuesday now, however small.
What's he doing now?
I've been ignoring anything to do with him for years but inadvertently saw a bit of that horrible 'lets go Ireland, let's go rest of the world' coked-up cringefest.
The problem with politics, is that you'll instantly get Tories refuting that this happened. They'll produce some stats that apparently prove you wrong.
EDIT - I actually note someone immediately picked you up on it, and did exactly this!!
It’s beyond a parody. Denying Tory austerity is up there with flat earthers. Apparently the cuts and decimated services haven’t happened. All the doctors, healthcare workers, think tanks, studies that say otherwise must be mistaken or lying. We have always been at war with Eastasia, or something.
The bolded is what it really comes down to. You have already seen that spending is up near an all time high, and as per @sun_tzu 's post since 2005 we have risen up the global ranks in terms of healthcare spending. We have matched the EU average to within 0.2% over the last 5 years. So why is the performance dropping so much? That is the question that needs to be addressed, and if you forget politics for a second it's clearly not down to the overall budget.
3 deaths is a very arbitrary start date though... why not one... why not 5?
If for example you look at at day 1 being the first day to record over 100 deaths then look 10 days forward you would have:
UK 759 .... add another ten days and you have 5373
Italy 1266... add another ten days and you have 6077
Spain 1813... add another ten days and you have 9053
France 1100... add another ten days and you have 5091
Germany 872... add another ten days and you have 2673
USA 1592... add another ten days and you have 10748
lies, damn lies and statistics
But until all countries have statistics that can be compared totally and we have seen the virus brought under control its going to be very hard to really compare properly
Belgium do add in care home deaths.
I read just in Barcelona it's 3500 care home deaths to add, could be 10k to add for Spain.
Staffing is one of the big issues - thousands of nursing vacancies for a start - massive use of agency and locum staff also which in itself is a massive amount of money. You need to train the right amount of staff nationally and then have an environment that is attractive enough (including pay and conditions) that makes the vast majority of them want to stay and work in the NHS rather than emigrate to the likes of Australia to work in better paid, better work-life balance jobs. It is incredibly stressful to work in NHS in part because of the pressure that staff shortages have on those who are in the job trying to cover for 2 or more staff that can't be recruited.
Updated graph of deaths in England by day of death. An unwelcome rise of 89 in reported cases today to 740. Still not the big increase in cases I thought would happen though. One more tiny data point that timorously suggests we might've already passed peak deaths and are beginning the long, slow, wobbly slide.
Orange is a 5 day trailing average (last 5-7 days will see large to moderate upward changes):
Updated graph of deaths in England by day of death. Deaths in England remained flat today with 738 being reported (-2). This again lends weak support to the idea that we might've seen peak deaths on 8th April. More concerning is the sudden surge in new cases to 5,600 (+1k from yesterday). This is the highest single day total since April 5th. I wonder if Easter shenanigans might've had something to do with it.
Orange is a 5 day trailing average (last 5-7 days will see large to moderate upward changes):
More of the same, with added xenophobia. Plus cyber-bullying a Stena Sealink employee for daring to work for a company that allowed Irish citizens drive home from abroad.
increase in testing? ...Updated graph of deaths in England by day of death. Deaths in England remained flat today with 738 being reported (-2). This again lends weak support to the idea that we might've seen peak deaths on 8th April. More concerning is the sudden surge in new cases to 5,600 (+1k from yesterday). This is the highest single day total since April 5th. I wonder if Easter shenanigans might've had something to do with it.
Orange is a 5 day trailing average (last 5-7 days will see large to moderate upward changes):
Oh.... you think that it’s an either/or switch.
If people clap they support cuts to the NHS and think the doctors should just get on with it.
If people sit indoors, all the NHS workers are recognising silence as being helpful to getting more PPE.
That’s a special kind of stupid. Even in This thread.
I didn't start the table, it was probably used as a similar starting point figure early on but you'd have to ask user RedSky.
Should go without saying that of bloody course until we get all the numbers months if not years later. This is just early tracking and has been topical at one point in the media and social media to have UK and Italy aligned side by side at 233 deaths a while back. The numbers looked ominous as they align very similar and work back to 3 each. Make your own table or graph and post it if you like.
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You do realise the sentence right before the part you made bold is the chairman of the BMA attributing this to ‘a decade of underfunding’? Hilariously you’ve somehow chosen to ignore that part.
For me the issues for the Country are far wider than the NHS. Just one area of many that crosses my mind. The pandemic once again has proved that in a Worldwide crisis generally speaking nations look after their own first and feck everyone else. Nowt wrong with that but, given this pandemic is not likely to be the last, I do so hope that we have the guts to say that some industries e.g. textile manufacturing and research labs must be promoted and protected. The constant drive for everything to be cheaper is not always wise. Why the feck the NHS yearly supply of face masks was sourced from France rather than produced in house so to speak was just plain daft.
Slight. Similar to yesterday, +2-3k people tested than early this week, +1k tested compared to over the weekend.
What, the chairman of the doctor's trade union calling for doctors to get more funding? I for one am stunned he would do such a thing.
I don't know what more proof you can be shown that NHS funding is at or near it's highest ever levels, on absolute terms, per capita, PPP, percentage of GDP, inflation adjusted, non inflation adjusted. I actually cannot find a single metric where this is not the case.
You sure about that?
The NHS does not have a problem with it's overall budget.
That graph does not in anyway back up your assertion. It shows what we all know that healths services across the globe have increasing needs in funding, it does not address the funding gap.
https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/
Yesterday he announced that we had lost two members of staff to Covid19 last weekend and that the safety of all employees and customers was most important. Then today we get that it will be business as usual in three weeks with people returning to offices etc.