You're viewing society as a risk management game then, not people who have equal rights.
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
"All in it together..." til the vaccine is out then everyone for themselves!
Not sure what you mean? None of this is anyone’s fault. Young people will get vaccinated later for exactly the reason you point out. If this means older people get to do certain things sooner than them, so be it. Nobody is being penalised. The sequence is completely fair and rational.
Well unless they give vaccines out to all at the same time, then effectively the younger ages groups are going to be restricted in what/where they can go until they get it done. Something which is largely out of their control.
It's not about empathy or patience here, it's a fact that restricting society on the basis of having a vaccine, where the public have no control over when they can receive isn't workable and creates something of a two tier society.
Which is exactly how it needs to be viewed during a pandemic. Same rationale as a lot of the people who got vaccinated early were forced to shield much more carefully early on in the pandemic, even during the summer, while the rest of us were hanging out in beer gardens. If they get their life back a month or two sooner than me I’m not going to begrudge them or moan about how I’m being penalised through no fault of my own.
There’s been a two tier society throughout this pandemic. Ever since the concept of shielding/cocooning was introduced.
That's not a solid reason to continue a two tier society when the risk profile of the pandemic is at a much lower level thanks to the vaccination programme.
That's so clearly a myopic view. It is still a society and you still should try to maintain most of its functions as well as its cohesion. That cohesion breaks down if one group for whatever reason perceives itself as being unjustly penalized.
Probably didn't word it the beat. Each to their own I suppose with all this. I completely understand the logic and I agree if someone is refusing a vaccine its ridiculously selfish but younger people here haven't refused it they've just not been offered it. The higher risk have been vaccinated and plenty more would of been by the April date for example. If they opened gyms/bars for example then said to people they can't come in through no fault of their own it just seems very harsh and would do plenty more harm to people's houses who are essentially forced to stay in for longer.
In all honesty I've avoided covid conversations for months but now it seems we're getting somewhere it'd just be shite to be told things are open but I can't use them. Probably is somewhat selfish but we've all done our part for a year now despite on a personal level my health being good and I'd obviously be considered low risk hence why I won't get the vaccine straight away
Sure. I hope we don’t need vaccination passports anyway. If all the most vulnerable are properly protected then hopefully the less vulnerable can get back to a much more normal life, with or without a vaccine. In a way, this is all hypothetical. It just grinds my gears when people underestimate how hard this has been for the most elderly/vulnerable. As I said, I certainly wouldn’t begrudge them a return to full normality a month or two earlier than me. They deserve it.
Have you got a link to this study? I can't find anything that says the AstraZeneca has been shown to be effective against the South African variant.
If the early data regarding transmission reduction appears to come true when we have a wider data set, then we shouldn't need a passport. Those young enough it's then up to them about managing their risk with the virus, and the older and most vulnerable have protection. The other part about opening up society, is that the younger generations have been highlighted as critical to the recovery of the economy, and limiting their mobility will only counter that.
On the other hand, by logic, because the benefit of all of these actions (lockdown, restrictions, pushing vaccines) are for the elderly and vulnerable, the balance of benefits-minus-costs should be positive for them. If it's not positive even for them then that's actually an argument that none of the actions should have been taken because young people only pretty much got the costs column and therefore the benefit to total society was less than the cost.
I'm playing devil's advocate a bit in this one, but I do think it's the type of thinking that needs to at least factor into decision making around this.
That's really interesting there is a thread that explains the slide. Have to admit it goes over my head a bit, so I don't know if what they are saying is true or not. it's good if it is true though.
It's just weird how it isn't been reported anywhere, which makes me sceptical that is not the whole story or there are elements people don't understand yet.
The reason there’s doubts about the AZ vaccine and the SA variant is because of results from this study. Which is small patient numbers, so by no means conclusive, but more useful than the info in that Tweet. Which is all in vitro data so won’t necessarily translate to efficacy in clinical practice.
Basically, the jury is still out but there’s definitely a real concern about efficacy against that variant. Which is why South Africa decided not to use the AZ vaccine (yet)
It's interpretation of the data in front of you, it's difficult to say true or false when the data they're showing is that the antigens which the vaccine targets, aren't affected by the virus mutation variant. Eg. so the original mutation that the vaccine was designed for will work with the variants.
What has plagued the AZ vaccine throughout its whole timespan is the poor reporting of the clinical trials. The SA study (not peer reviewed) where they tested it on 2,000 people (average age of 31) of mild/moderate cases, is a study of a similar challenge for AZ. That slide I quoted was on the same published study, but not reported in media.
Are they though? I get what you’re saying, but those people had their youth. Not that anyone is losing all their youth but still. A young, single person losing this time to socialise is probably worse than an older, settled person losing it.
On the topic of the vaccine passport. I get the feeling any domestic use would be incredibly short lived. A compromise to get places open before they slowly stop asking for them.
Fair point. Although their socialisation takes different forms. Not being able to hug your grandkids for a year has to be similarly painful to missing out on a year of dating/partying.
But yeah, this is all probably a moot point.
Yeah something like 2-6 months seems ok to me, depending on country's situation. Many are thinking of it in the wrong way. It isn't punishing anyone, but helping to open earlier. The choice is either to keep closed for everyone or to use vaccine passports and open to some. Unfortunately in many places opening up for everyone is still possible.
The entire workforce in the pharmaceutical warehouse I work in were offered the vaccine at the beginning of this month. An email went around this week containing data about the take-up, which has been pretty good: 500 out of 600 employees consented and have received their first jab, with the second booked in for April/May.
Only 10 employees turned it down due to "not trusting the contents", with a few more waiting on a doctor to confirm it's safe for them.
In my team, around 50% of us had some form of side effects. Younger people tended to get flu-like symptoms such as constant shivering the night of, whilst others (like me) just had some mild back and arm pain.
My folks, who I'm currently staying with, had their jabs the week before me too, so this has been a massively encouraging month after the uncertainty of the last year.
Only 10 employees turned it down due to "not trusting the contents", with a few more waiting on a doctor to confirm it's safe for them.
In my team, around 50% of us had some form of side effects. Younger people tended to get flu-like symptoms such as constant shivering the night of, whilst others (like me) just had some mild back and arm pain.
My folks, who I'm currently staying with, had their jabs the week before me too, so this has been a massively encouraging month after the uncertainty of the last year.
Deaths per day down to 323, down from 454 last Thursday.
Mandatory quarantine voted down in the South. What is the point.
https://www.regenhealthsolutions.in...-pfizer-novavax-and-janssen-vaccine-efficacy/
Not great reading (I say reading, somebody simplified it on Reddit).
Not great reading (I say reading, somebody simplified it on Reddit).
In the UK this sucks. Society has given everything to those over 40, and cut the legs off of people younger than that.
Young people staying home, working, paying rent to vaccinated landlords is just wank.
The young pay for the old. Vaccinating them second, and forcing them to stay home until they’re jabbed... it’s shit.
I’m old. I’ll ‘win’. But it’s shit.
It is what it is. The sequence the vaccine is being rolled out makes sense. And it would obviously be nuts to continue to lock people out of society who could be contributing to getting things back to normal, just because some of them are landlords and their tenants might take offence.
Besides, the most meaningful gap is likely to be between the elderly and the young. So we won’t see huge swathes of middle-aged folk living it large, while Gen Z/Millenials watch enviously on.
Exactly.
Although I suppose that you could make an argument to vaccinate the young first as they spread it more than other age demographics the selfish socialising super spreading snowflakes that they are.
Yes. That last bit was a joke
Rates going up in nl but time to open up, amazing
Might be a joke but that’s the plan in Ireland. 18-35 ahead of 35-50 in the queue because they socialise more. Means I slip down a place in the queue, personally, but that’s fine by me. Like I said, so long as there’s sensible rationale for the sequence then it’s all good. And if vaccine passports are a safe way to accelerate the return to normal then whinging about being denied one of those documents “through no fault of my own” just seems churlish.
Only the insults at the end were meant as a joke.
If your hospitals aren't overwhelmed you could start with the young as that will probably reduce R faster. A hard sell to deny those who might well die if they get covid though.
And agreed in general. Someone has to be first and if that isn't you then suck it up princess. I'd like it tomorrow but I won't get it until July/August I suspect.
I don't agree. I am 40, right in the middle and I believe that the young people live on what it had been built for the older generation. And if we do have a moral compass, vaccinating the ones at risk should be a priority and if it needs to be complemented with restrictions, I welcome it.
The none access to affordable housing because the old generation might hoard houses as a moneymaking capital accumulation is something unrelated to that and we probably would agree that is not fair
The young stayed inside for the last 12 months to protect the old. There is a smaller chance that young people will die from the virus but it is still more than capable of fecking them up. As far as I'm concerned the newly vaccinated old can return the favour and stay inside for those who are still waiting for their turn. Vaccine passports can come in only once everybody has had the opportunity to get the vaccine.
The young did not stay inside thats why everyone is still in the shit
What world are you living in?
The whole world stayed inside. A few rulebreakers here and there doesn't change the enormous impact the lockdowns and restrictions had.
The young staying inside this week
https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/vid...k-amsterdam-drukte-corona-maatregelen-politie
Blaming the young
Kin ell, when does the blame game stop for some of you lot? It’s a virus ffs, doing it’s thing.
The young are the worst, well except for the elderly. Luckily I'm middle aged.
I'm just disproving the other poster's claim, as the video quite clearly shows hundreds of young people not staying inside, would you like to prove otherwise?Blaming the young
Kin ell, when does the blame game stop for some of you lot? It’s a virus ffs, doing it’s thing.
Us middle aged have had tonnes of home parties, we’re just sneakier.
Blaming the young for why a virus is still around just sums up the past year, people spending the entire time trying to find someone to blame for a completely natural phenomenon.