SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

So many in this thread want to blame the government but not foist any blame on the populace. It’s not all the government. It’s at best half & half with probably more blame on the populace.

There’s absolutely no reason for pictures like this. This picture isn’t due to the idiocy of the government, it’s due to the idiocy of the populace.

When will people finally realize this?

These images are all extremely predictable when you cancel Christmas 4 days before Christmas an d effectively attempt to quarantine people, but only for some of the country. Being surprised at people reacting in an entirely preditctable way is an act of stupidity.

Just like sending Uni students back to Uni and then acting shocked that they behave like Uni students.
 
Sorry if this has been covered but I haven't been in this thread lately.

Do we know if the mutated strain is any weaker symptoms-wise or is it just as bad and more infectious?
Apparently they don't believe (key word) that it creates a stronger immunological response in the lungs. Moreso that people who have it are some 70% more infectious, but again, they don't believe it is anymore deadly or dangerous.....(key word)
 
These images are all extremely predictable when you cancel Christmas 4 days before Christmas an d effectively attempt to quarantine people, but only for some of the country. Being surprised at people reacting in an entirely preditctable way is an act of stupidity.

Just like sending Uni students back to Uni and then acting shocked that they behave like Uni students.
People don’t need to be getting coffee at the local store.

It's childish to absolve these people in the picture of any responsibility. This is 100% hubris & selfishness by the people. Don’t try to blame their idiocy on the government. They’d do it even if christmas wasn’t rightly cancelled.
 
Various people have come out that this mutation in particular, has been known about since Sept and Oct and the transmissibility of it was known then as well.

So you're incorrect.

They knew what about the transmissibility? If they knew that it impacted the spike receptor binding domain they could have had some plausible theories early on. Very difficult to get good data to even test the hypotheses at that stage.

I will happily agree with you that if they knew that it was almost 2x as transmissible based on solid data then it was negligent not to mention that. But if that is the case that is not just about the UK but globally. They were ethically obliged to report something that significant and it would be utterly bizarre if UK scientists, who have participated a lot in global efforts, consciously chose not to do that. They don't need the UK government to do it.

Look at that article from nature summarising their latest understanding of mutations at the end of November. They said all evidence they had suggested mutations hadn't increased transmission, even though theoretically they could. WHO only informed a couple of weeks ago. So the entire scientific community was out of the loop.

So let's see the evidence...
 
Apparently they don't believe (key word) that it creates a stronger immunological response in the lungs. Moreso that people who have it are some 70% more infectious, but again, they don't believe it is anymore deadly or dangerous.....(key word)

Ok thanks. I was hoping there was a chance it would be weaker. I'm sure we'd all take more infectious and less dangerous.
 
Girl in work tested positive. Was in contact with her Tuesday and Wednesday.

Luckily I took a test yesterday, so hopefully that gives me the all clear, but right now not looking likely.
Something similar happened to me, so I had a look into this.

If you are contacted by track and trace you are legally obliged to self isolate. If you aren't then you legally dont have to.

All countries do this different, but it seems like many are saying that 5 days after contact, you could take the test and if you are negative, you are almost definitely fine. But you should give it 5 days. So if you are you were in contact with her Wednesday and you took the test yesterday, that is only 3 days, which isn't ideal. Although I don't know know the chances in percentage that it wouldn't show up yet.
 
They knew what about the transmissibility? If they knew that it impacted the spike receptor binding domain they could have had some plausible theories early on. Very difficult to get good data to even test the hypotheses at that stage.

I will happily agree with you that if they knew that it was almost 2x as transmissible based on solid data then it was negligent not to mention that. But if that is the case that is not just about the UK but globally. They were ethically obliged to report something that significant and it would be utterly bizarre if UK scientists, who have participated a lot in global efforts, consciously chose not to do that. They don't need the UK government to do it.

Look at that article from nature summarising their latest understanding of mutations at the end of November. They said all evidence they had suggested mutations hadn't increased transmission, even though theoretically they could. WHO only informed a couple of weeks ago. So the entire scientific community was out of the loop.

So let's see the evidence...

Dr Susan Hopkins from Public Health England, and Dr Maria Van Kerkhove, Covid-19 technical lead at the World Health Organisation were on Marr this morning, and unless I misheard they were aware of and researching this new strain from Kent, UK in September and October, during this time understanding how the mutations affected transmissibility of the virus.

Available on iPlayer.
 
Some of the early posts in this thread haven’t aged well
The other day I somehow found myself on the first page of this thread thinking it was an entirely new one. For those few minutes, I really thought the world was ending. How could a 2nd SARS virus be found in China
 
Do these countries banning flights from the UK.... are they still allowing them to go to the UK?
 
Ok thanks. I was hoping there was a chance it would be weaker. I'm sure we'd all take more infectious and less dangerous.
Issue is, more infections means more deaths.

If it's 70% more infectious, you'll have more people getting the virus than would before, so more deaths.

Ebola for example is 50% fatal (citation needed) but it's transmissibility is very low.
 
Tested positive today, got to self isolate until 27th.

Living alone and not able to get out for food etc and Xmas completely cancelled. Brilliant.
 
It depends what you mean by personal judgement. There is a difference between someone wanting to go to a party for example, and wanting to see their loved ones at Christmas becuase they are worried about how they will cope otherwise. If someone self isolates for 2 weeks, then sees another household who have self isolated for 2 weeks, the risk is literally zero. The problem is that if you let everyone make that judegment, a lot of people would just skip out the self isolating bit. I don't think it's a good idea at all for everyonto just be making their own mind up, but I just don't think you can judge people particularly harshly for coming to their own conclusions at this point. With the exception of the just obviously ignorant ones, and even then, who knows what they are going through.

If the rules were clear, and the message was consistent, and the relevant science was made available to back it up, I think then you can judge people or expect them to stick to guidelines. But for example, if I went and saw my family in Derby, I have no idea if I even would be breaking the rules, because the rules are all over the fecking place. Technically I could say I have formed a support bubble with them, then go up there and infect them all with covid, and not be breaking the rules. I'm still expected to go into people's homes as part of my job but am told it's ok to then go and see my dad...but I can't see my less vulnerable brother or sister, and they also can't see my dad, even though they pose significantly less of a risk to him than I do. I'd be legally obliged to send my kids into school at a time when infection is spreading mostly among school aged people, and a time of year when minimal actual learning in school occurs, even if a vulnerable person was living with them at home...but then they get told 4 days before christmas that christmas is cancelled and they can't see anyone, because we have to do everything we can to stop people transmitting the virus.. When the rules are that idiotic it's hard to pin infection rises on people ignoring them. For a start its impossible to even prove who is and isn't ignoring them. It also becomes harder to stop people making personal ill judgements, because the last thing anyone wants to do in a crisis is follow the advice of an idiot, and unfortunately the scientists are relying on Boris to relay messages for them, which is a bit like Homer Simpson telling you how to avert a nuclear meltdown.

I mean at the start of all this I'd assumed it would drag on for quite a long time but I also assumed our government would get better at handling it. They actually seem to be making more and more of a mess of it. Cancelling Christmas this late is going to have such a limited effect of damage limitation that it will more than likely be outweighed by the damage that decision will cause through people panicking, ignoring it, or being hit mentally or financially. I don't see how this "we only found out on Friday" excuse washes at all. If the new strain was 70% more transmittable the data would have been quite clearly showing that for some considerable time now...and you suspect it probably has and that Boris and co have just chosen to ignore it and hope it goes away.

I agree with you that communication has been rubbish. I don't agree with you that rules are inconsistent and there are reasons that explain why similar situations are handled differently, based on different sets of societal priorities. But let's accept your position on that too.

We now know this is a dangerous time. We also know the vaccine is a legitimate exit strategy. Let's say we stop paying attention to government rules and instead make judgments bases purely on what is the best way to handle this pandemic as a society. If you choose to see your friends, your family, etc. you are taking a risk that you will spread the virus. Every one of those interactions counts, not just the parties. The motivations can provide individual justification but that doesn't change the epidemiological outcome. The self isolation is only plausible in very specific circumstances for a few people. People gotta eat.

If people weigh up their own individual risk of catching and passing on the virus, don't you think they'll end up making decisions that are an acceptable level of risk for them as individuals, but an unacceptable risk for society? Is there any reason to believe that if people were left to rely on their own judgment, they would be able to manage things in a way that prevent hospital capacity going over 90%?

If not, then choosing not to judge those decisions therefore encourages individuals to take actions that cause more societal harm. I don't see any way around that.
 
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I did a bit of reading on this myself. The concern is legitimate. The mutations are in regions which could plausibly cause the virus to be more virulent. And there’s hard evidence that it’s involved in a very big outbreak. However, what we know about super-spreaders and exponential growth means we still can’t separate correlation and causation.

There was similar discussions earlier in the pandemic when a new strain seemed to spread much more rapidly in Europe than any previous strains had in China but that turned out to be a property of the society it was infecting, rather than any change in the way the virus itself behaved. And it’s not hard to think of less sinister reasons for explosive outbreaks when you see images of those maskless crowds in London shops.

We’ll know for certain soon enough, after the long suffering meeces have been put through the ringer once again.

The infection rate here is soaring but has been very low compared to other areas for the whole pandemic until now. It's a bit daft not to attribute some of the speed of the infection rate to the fact a lot more people here simply wont have had it at all yet.

Regardless, surely the overall transmission patterns would give a fairly accurate idea that there was a problem before this fecking Friday. For example, I knew there was a problem before then, because I looked at the publicly available data and saw that there very obviously was. We've crept up from 40 cases per 100,000 to nearly 500 per 100,000 in under 2 months. It hasn't just suddenly happened this week, no matter what it's attributed to.


Do you really believe all of that post?

If people aren't stupid then why do they need to be told to cancel xmas at all? They would use common sense and cancel it themselves.

We dont actually need rules and tiers, the numbers should be coming down with personal fear of catching the feckin virus. My mrs hasn't given her dad a hug for nearly a year because its unwise. Govts aren't to blame for stupidity but maybe for relaxing the rules when numbers were decreasing.


We need rules for something like this because it's a crisis, and most people lack common sense at the best of times, never mind when they are in survival or reactionary mode. Give people guidance that helps them get through a crisis and they will generally stick to it rather than take risks.Give them guidance that keeps changing, often contradicts itselfm and at times obviously makes no sense, and people will end up all over the place or making their own decisions.

It's like being in a burning building and having to choose whether you let someone guide you out. If they're dressed as a firefighter and appear to be leading you to where they think the exit is, then you're probably going to follow them. If they're dressed as a circus clown and keep changing their mind about which way to go, and occasionally try to make you walk through things that are on fire, you're probably going to start thinking about finding your own way out, or at the very least start getting very angry at them when you notice your arm is burning.
 
Dr Susan Hopkins from Public Health England, and Dr Maria Van Kerkhove, Covid-19 technical lead at the World Health Organisation were on Marr this morning, and unless I misheard they were aware of and researching this new strain from Kent, UK in September and October, during this time understanding how the mutations affected transmissibility of the virus.

Available on iPlayer.

I just listened to Kerkhove talk about it and she definitely did not say that. The fact that they were conducting studies to understand the transmissiblity since September does not at all mean that this one raised any alarms at that point. It's just the process. They are legitimately difficult and time consuming tasks that need to be balanced against a whole host of other critical tasks. Just like they're still running studies now to understand all of those factors. We still don't have conclusive answers on those four key elements, in her words, but we have some interim findings from very recently. I will listen to it all and PHE will have a different level of involvement but there was nothing in her words that suggested they knew this was serious and didn't alert them quickly enough, even though they knew the strain was first identified in September, and things only escalated last month. She couldn't provide a specific date but I'm sure that will come.
 
Sorry to hear this mate. Shit at any time, but the week before Christmas sucks.

Yeah won’t be able to see my kids or anyone and as I live alone it’s going to be tough getting food in and stuff but at least I’m seemingly getting over the symptoms. Cheers.
 
Do these countries banning flights from the UK.... are they still allowing them to go to the UK?

Probably not, a plane has to return and commercially it makes sense to fly a plane on the proviso that it earns money on the way home. I can't see the bans changing for at least a month.
 
The defence of government makes no sense, we as individuals can all blame the public because we don't have an influence but the government does. They told people x,y,z were illegal and then announced x,y,z was now legal. What exactly did they expect to happen? Those who don't follow in detail will have assumed their behaviours if no longer banned were now safe.

Until i see some data that shows me an infection trend that doesn't fit loosening behaviours then I'm blaming the government. You only have to look at google mobility reports to see the uptick matches travel especially to retail.


It depends what you mean by personal judgement. There is a difference between someone wanting to go to a party for example, and wanting to see their loved ones at Christmas becuase they are worried about how they will cope otherwise. If someone self isolates for 2 weeks, then sees another household who have self isolated for 2 weeks, the risk is literally zero. The problem is that if you let everyone make that judegment, a lot of people would just skip out the self isolating bit. I don't think it's a good idea at all for everyonto just be making their own mind up, but I just don't think you can judge people particularly harshly for coming to their own conclusions at this point. With the exception of the just obviously ignorant ones, and even then, who knows what they are going through.

If the rules were clear, and the message was consistent, and the relevant science was made available to back it up, I think then you can judge people or expect them to stick to guidelines. But for example, if I went and saw my family in Derby, I have no idea if I even would be breaking the rules, because the rules are all over the fecking place. Technically I could say I have formed a support bubble with them, then go up there and infect them all with covid, and not be breaking the rules. I'm still expected to go into people's homes as part of my job but am told it's ok to then go and see my dad...but I can't see my less vulnerable brother or sister, and they also can't see my dad, even though they pose significantly less of a risk to him than I do. I'd be legally obliged to send my kids into school at a time when infection is spreading mostly among school aged people, and a time of year when minimal actual learning in school occurs, even if a vulnerable person was living with them at home...but then they get told 4 days before christmas that christmas is cancelled and they can't see anyone, because we have to do everything we can to stop people transmitting the virus.. When the rules are that idiotic it's hard to pin infection rises on people ignoring them. For a start its impossible to even prove who is and isn't ignoring them. It also becomes harder to stop people making personal ill judgements, because the last thing anyone wants to do in a crisis is follow the advice of an idiot, and unfortunately the scientists are relying on Boris to relay messages for them, which is a bit like Homer Simpson telling you how to avert a nuclear meltdown.

I mean at the start of all this I'd assumed it would drag on for quite a long time but I also assumed our government would get better at handling it. They actually seem to be making more and more of a mess of it. Cancelling Christmas this late is going to have such a limited effect of damage limitation that it will more than likely be outweighed by the damage that decision will cause through people panicking, ignoring it, or being hit mentally or financially. I don't see how this "we only found out on Friday" excuse washes at all. If the new strain was 70% more transmittable the data would have been quite clearly showing that for some considerable time now...and you suspect it probably has and that Boris and co have just chosen to ignore it and hope it goes away.


With opinions such as this being so prevalent we hav’nt got a chance and the U.K. is well and truly fecked. Talk about ‘it’s not my responsibility’. Its at times like this that it crosses my mind that a ‘police state’ might not be a bad idea.
 
Sorry I don't have time to read through dozens of pages but could somebody please confirm to me that these vacancies have efficacy against this more infectius strain of covid? :nervous:
 
Sorry I don't have time to read through dozens of pages but could somebody please tell me that these vacancies have efficacy against this more infectius strain of covid? :nervous:

Whilst scientists won’t say something definitely does something without it being studied, they have said there is no reason to believe it wouldn’t
 
Probably not, a plane has to return and commercially it makes sense to fly a plane on the proviso that it earns money on the way home. I can't see the bans changing for at least a month.

feck, I didn't think of that
 
Regardless, surely the overall transmission patterns would give a fairly accurate idea that there was a problem before this fecking Friday. For example, I knew there was a problem before then, because I looked at the publicly available data and saw that there very obviously was. We've crept up from 40 cases per 100,000 to nearly 500 per 100,000 in under 2 months. It hasn't just suddenly happened this week, no matter what it's attributed to.

Case rate, potentially not, but you shouldn't be solely looking at cases in isolation. The motivation for the restrictions is all related to ICU and hospital capacity, the stricter the measure should give an indication as to the severity of the capacity issues. Wales had last week one day where they had 10 free ICU beds across the whole country. So they can balance an increase of case rate, as long as the hospital's capacity is in a healthy status.

The transmission pattern for the tier 4 areas, has grown at an extremely sharp rate over the past week. You can't see the data in one or two days due to the fact that the current turn around time on tests is about 3.1 days and increasing daily. So in reality the decisions being made on Friday/Saturday is based off tests that were taken on Tuesday at the latest.
 
Whilst scientists won’t say something definitely does something without it being studied, they have said there is no reason to believe it wouldn’t
Okay thank you. We can all hope.
 
It's tough, I would certainly speak to the airlines to see what options. You could re-route to a country where they haven't banned travel and fly into the UK that way?

Yeah true. It's for my fiance. She is on a fiance visa and visiting her family before moving here. She is due to come on 10 Jan and I know India hasn't banned entry/exit or BA have made no changes but I'm worried it will be a chain reaction with one country after another
 
With opinions such as this being so prevalent we hav’nt got a chance and the U.K. is well and truly fecked. Talk about ‘it’s not my responsibility’. Its at times like this that it crosses my mind that a ‘police state’ might not be a bad idea.

You can have personal responsibility and at the same time have government responsibility. Much of society is based on both being a reality but it's clear why some want no responsibility on the government right now.
 
So 35,000 infected today, without any error like a few days ago.

Chances it will go up to 50,000 by Christmas day? Especially with all the moving around in the last 24 hours..
 
It's like being in a burning building and having to choose whether you let someone guide you out. If they're dressed as a firefighter and appear to be leading you to where they think the exit is, then you're probably going to follow them. If they're dressed as a circus clown and keep changing their mind about which way to go, and occasionally try to make you walk through things that are on fire, you're probably going to start thinking about finding your own way out, or at the very least start getting very angry at them when you notice your arm is burning.

Beautifully put.
 
Okay thank you. We can all hope.

The other thing is the mRNA vaccines are relatively easy to adapt so we have good reason to believe that if this a minor adjustment to the spike protein that changes the immune response, we can just make a minor change to the mRNA to match it. It wouldn't be anything like starting from 0 again. We adapt the flu virus every year on similar principles, and this technology is easier to adjust. Costs a fair bit of money and time but not something to despair about.
 
The other thing is the mRNA vaccines are relatively easy to adapt so we have good reason to believe that if this a minor adjustment to the spike protein that changes the immune response, we can just make a minor change to the mRNA to match it. It wouldn't be anything like starting from 0 again. We adapt the flu virus every year on similar principles, and this technology is easier to adjust. Costs a fair bit of money and time but not something to despair about.
Yeah I gathered that at worst we wouldn't have to start from scratch.
 
2000 patients admitted to hospital and the total is climbing all the time. We'll probably see daily deaths rise a lot more in the coming weeks.

With the new possible strain and hospitals near the limit it's hard to not see why the whole country is not under tier 4 to limit the spread as it will be out there across the UK and I wonder when "elite sport" will be stopped.
 
Both Grandparents just arrived back from their first jab. Second one scheduled for 10th January.
 
So 35,000 infected today, without any error like a few days ago.

Chances it will go up to 50,000 by Christmas day? Especially with all the moving around in the last 24 hours..

1,500 every hour. No health system can tolerate that. Especially when the majority and in the south east. We have gone from euphoria when the vaccine was approved to despair in a few weeks.
This is very far from over.