SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Pogue Mahone]

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So I posted the below in the vaccine thread but it got lost as last message on the page. Anybody able to enlighten me.



Hypothetically, if the vaccine has mutated to not have an S protein and this was then found in a small percentage of people, would this be an absolute disaster for the vaccines?

Quoting to increase visibility - is this possible through mutation, or do Corona bugs mutate in specific ways?

Two things make this not a big concern. First of all, coronaviruses are fairly stable. They don’t mutate much compared to most other viruses.

The other reason is the nature of mRNA vaccines. They’re very adaptable.

The appeal of mRNA vaccines - and a key secret to their speed - is they are plug-and-play: The mRNA vehicle does not need to change, only the specific genetic instructions it carries. If the virus changes or mutates, the details of the instructions can be altered accordingly.

Taken from this interesting article on the hard work that’s gone into getting us where we are. Hard work and sacrifice by employees of evil big pharma.

Work proceeded so fast that some researchers went weeks without seeing their families. Dormitzer hasn’t seen his wife and kids since March, apart from Zoom calls.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This is good.

 

[gormless]

Two things make this not a big concern. First of all, coronaviruses are fairly stable. They don’t mutate much compared to most other viruses.

The other reason is the nature of mRNA vaccines. They’re very adaptable.



Taken from this interesting article on the hard work that’s gone into getting us where we are. Hard work and sacrifice by employees of evil big pharma.

I hope they’re adaptable.
Without doxxing anyone, I know someone who knows someone pretty high up... who has says they’re already seeing that particular mutation in the lab testing.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I hope they’re adaptable.
Without doxxing anyone, I know someone who knows someone pretty high up... who has says they’re already seeing that particular mutation in the lab testing.

I think you could be a bit more specific than “I know someone who knows someone pretty high up” without worrying about doxxing someone!

Do you know what mutation he/she is talking about?

 

[jojojo]

I hope they’re adaptable.
Without doxxing anyone, I know someone who knows someone pretty high up... who has says they’re already seeing that particular mutation in the lab testing.

The mink cull in Denmark was triggered by observations on mutations in the spike protein. It looks like those mutations weren't significant enough to stop the current trial vaccines from working. The worry is that at some point they might jump again, hence the need for culls and a lot of vigilance. Is that the speculation you're talking about?

 

[Tarrou]

So should he be working for free then? End of the day we wouldn’t have PPE if it wasn’t for his services. Left wing Caf at it again.

The £21m figure is probably not unreasonable given the scales involved, but why on earth is a jewellery designer brokering deals for the NHS?

I mean the NHS spends £100bn a year you'd think they have direct relationships to all major suppliers. And if they didn't, they have such enormous buying power they don't need to pay a finders fee. I don't understand the business obviously but I just find it really weird.

 

[gormless]

I think you could be a bit more specific than “I know someone who knows someone pretty high up” without worrying about doxxing someone!

Do you know what mutation he/she is talking about?

Keeping it as vague as possible: my colleagues partner has been on conference calls with people who have been in the Downing Street news conferences and is involved in the testing process.

my colleague dropped it in passing today that they’ve seen a small percentage of cases in testing without the S protein.Then she started talking about I’m a Celebrity and said she hadn’t asked anything further regarding this.

I’m hoping it’s a miscommunication, but sounded pretty significant to me.

 

[gormless]

The mink cull in Denmark was triggered by observations on mutations in the spike protein. It looks like those mutations weren't significant enough to stop the current trial vaccines from working. The worry is that at some point they might jump again, hence the need for culls and a lot of vigilance. Is that the speculation you're talking about?

Can’t seem to multi quote on my phone but see my other reply. Doesn’t seem like it, but I’m hoping it’s a miscommunication

 

[Andy_Cole]

The £21m figure is probably not unreasonable given the scales involved, but why on earth is a jewellery designer brokering deals for the NHS?

I mean the NHS spends £100bn a year you'd think they have direct relationships to all major suppliers. And if they didn't, they have such enormous buying power they don't need to pay a finders fee. I don't understand the business obviously but I just find it really weird.

This is a very fair comment. I disagree about direct relationships with suppliers though. Their relationship will be with agents.

 

[Tony Babangida]

Keeping it as vague as possible: my colleagues partner has been on conference calls with people who have been in the Downing Street news conferences and is involved in the testing process.

my colleague dropped it in passing today that they’ve seen a small percentage of cases in testing without the S protein.Then she started talking about I’m a Celebrity and said she hadn’t asked anything further regarding this.

I’m hoping it’s a miscommunication, but sounded pretty significant to me.

I don’t think the virus could lose the spike protein all together. Perhaps they were talking about the small deletion in the spike found in some mink strains. I think I remember seeing that this has also been picked up independently of mink.

 

[Tarrou]

This is a very fair comment. I disagree about direct relationships with suppliers though. Their relationship will be with agents.

This is probably a dumb question but why do you need agents if your buying power rivals any company in the world?

Surely suppliers will be desperate to have a direct conversation and strike a deal? At the end of the day, no business wants to use an agent and pay extra fees if they can avoid it

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Keeping it as vague as possible: my colleagues partner has been on conference calls with people who have been in the Downing Street news conferences and is involved in the testing process.

my colleague dropped it in passing today that they’ve seen a small percentage of cases in testing without the S protein.Then she started talking about I’m a Celebrity and said she hadn’t asked anything further regarding this.

I’m hoping it’s a miscommunication, but sounded pretty significant to me.

It does sound like a miscommunication. The most worrying mutation I’ve heard about was the mink one. Which was a mutation that affected the spike but certainly didn’t get rid of it altogether. Without the spike protein it’s almost a different virus. Can’t imagine it could be as infectious/dangerous with a mutation that drastic because the spike is needed to bind to our cells. Hence its a target for vaccines. They’re targeting the bit of the virus that is most critical for its function.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don’t think the virus could lose the spike protein all together. Perhaps they were talking about the small deletion in the spike found in some mink strains. I think I remember seeing that this has also been picked up independently of mink.

It’s infected people working in/near mink farms in Denmark. I haven’t heard of it spreading anywhere else yet. Have you?

 

[jojojo]

Keeping it as vague as possible: my colleagues partner has been on conference calls with people who have been in the Downing Street news conferences and is involved in the testing process.

my colleague dropped it in passing today that they’ve seen a small percentage of cases in testing without the S protein.Then she started talking about I’m a Celebrity and said she hadn’t asked anything further regarding this.

I’m hoping it’s a miscommunication, but sounded pretty significant to me.

That just sounds like an output from this kind of work:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ations-which-cause-treatments-to-lose-potency

That leads to results like this mentioned in Nature

Since the start of the pandemic, researchers have identified thousands of viral mutations in the genomes of SARS-CoV-2 samples taken from infected people. David Robertson at the University of Glasgow, UK, Gyorgy Snell at Vir Biotechnology in San Francisco, California, and their colleagues examined a mutation called N439K in a protein that the virus uses to invade cells (E. C. Thomson et al. Preprint at bioRxiv https://doi.org/fhnp; 2020).

They have to monitor changes, but it's the specifics of the changes that matter, when it comes to things like vaccines etc. If it starts mutating as fast as flu does (which it hasn't done so far) it might mean vaccine cocktails that get updated every year, like with flu. Or it might even make it less deadly. Either way, they have to keep looking.

 

[Tony Babangida]

It’s infected people working in/near mink farms in Denmark. I haven’t heard of it spreading anywhere else yet. Have you?

No- I was wrong, double checked and I was thinking of the N439K mutant, not the short deletion.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.04.355842v1

 

[giggs-beckham]

If we have a vaccine which is around 95% effective why can't it be given to the 5-600 people a day that are on deaths door?
It must be more complicated than that i know, but if my mum was on a ventilator with days or hours to go and the doctors said well we've this vaccine but it hasn't been wide spread tested over a long period of time, I'd say give it to her. But again I guess its more complicated than that I just don't see how...

 

[NinjaFletch]

If we have a vaccine which is around 95% effective why can't it be given to the 5-600 people a day that are on deaths door?
It must be more complicated than that i know, but if my mum was on a ventilator with days or hours to go and the doctors said well we've this vaccine but it hasn't been wide spread tested over a long period of time, I'd say give it to her. But again I guess its more complicated than that I just don't see how...

Because it's a vaccine, not a treatment.

They've already got it and their body is already producing antibodies to fight it. Giving them a vaccine is going to do nothing.

 

[Compton22]

If we have a vaccine which is around 95% effective why can't it be given to the 5-600 people a day that are on deaths door?
It must be more complicated than that i know, but if my mum was on a ventilator with days or hours to go and the doctors said well we've this vaccine but it hasn't been wide spread tested over a long period of time, I'd say give it to her. But again I guess its more complicated than that I just don't see how...

Vaccine is a prevention of disease, not a cure unfortunately

 

[sglowrider]

Wrong if you mean 'truthful'. Right if you mean 'official'.

Those two things don't necessarily coincide when it comes to matters of saving face for the CCP.

CCP! You drank the Koolaid? The virus doesn't have a political bias.

In an authoritarian society, it's just easier to do lockdown and do mandatory masking and social distancing. They sent in the army to both do mass testing and enforce lockdowns. The army can swoop in and do 10 million tests on a city.

Singapore has nearly 60,000 cases and only 28 deaths to date.

The inability to do lockdowns or enforce measures like masking/social distancing and a disproportionately higher death count is the price of perceived freedom and liberty. Own it.

 

[sglowrider]

Just note to say that PPE is still comparably pretty basic for most staff in the NHS. Coveralls China-style should ideally be the norm for all healthcare workers in all any form of contact with covid patients + hoods or N95 or FFP3. But we have to make do with visors, flimsy aprons and surgical masks for covid patients unless its in ITU or wards with aerosol generating procedures.

I mean not complaining too much, there was a time we were asked to consider recycling or reusing the stuff. And a lot of community based healthcare providers/teams had to source some of their own materials.

Can't put a number on what the right amount is for that provision is, but I'm not certain its been a personal protective panacea for the NHS.

I have a friend on the frontline in Singapore -- they are decked out in a full kit -- from shoe covers to N95s to face shields, aprons etc every time they see a potential patient.

If they have to pee then they have to remove everything and replace it all. The Health Minister told them that they will not cut any corners to protect the healthcare workers. Lessons learnt from the previous epidemic, SARs.

So she could potentially change a full kit four times per shift -- and the supervisors will not blink an eyelid.

 

[Wibble]

NSW and Victoria have been covid free for 19 and 11 days respectively but South Australia has a cluster of 20 (likely to rise to 22 or a bit more by tomorrow) after a worker at a quarantine hotel was infected and have it to his large family and a few others. Most states have shut the border to SA again and they have just announced a 6 day circuit breaker lock-down to try to kill it before it spreads further and particularly to get on top of contact tracing.


This “circuit breaker” will include a six-day lockdown and a further eight days of lesser restrictions in the state.

Closures in the first six days include:

• All schools except for children of the essential worker and vulnerable children
• Universities
• Takeaway food
• Pubs, cafes, coffee shops and food courts
• Elective surgery except for urgent operations and cancer treatment
• Open inspections and auctions for real estate.
• Outdoor sport and physical activity - You CAN NOT leave you home for exercise
• Regional travel

More to come...

 

[Tony Babangida]

NSW and Victoria have been covid free for 19 and 11 days respectively but South Australia has a cluster of 20 (likely to rise to 22 or a bit more by tomorrow) after a worker at a quarantine hotel was infected and have it to his large family and a few others. Most states have shut the border to SA again and they have just announced a 6 day circuit breaker lock-down to try to kill it before it spreads further and particularly to get on top of contact tracing.


This “circuit breaker” will include a six-day lockdown and a further eight days of lesser restrictions in the state.

Closures in the first six days include:

• All schools except for children of the essential worker and vulnerable children
• Universities
• Takeaway food
• Pubs, cafes, coffee shops and food courts
• Elective surgery except for urgent operations and cancer treatment
• Open inspections and auctions for real estate.
• Outdoor sport and physical activity - You CAN NOT leave you home for exercise
• Regional travel

More to come...

Glad they are taking swift action, better than waiting until it is already too late.

 

[Wibble]

Glad they are taking swift action, better than waiting until it is already too late.

Yes. Can't believe Gladys has been bullied into leaving the NSW border open by Scotty from Marketing.

Have you also noticed how differently the Feds are talking about the SA Premier compared to how they (disgracefully) talked about Dan Andrews?

 

[calodo2003]

900 Mayo Clinic employees have contracted the virus in the past two weeks, a third of the staff.

When will people realize that this is a crucial issue, the collapse of the healthcare systems in any country? Isn’t forgoing a Thanksgiving, a night out, or even a few months of staying in worth it in the long run?

 

[Wibble]

Glad they are taking swift action, better than waiting until it is already too late.

Update on measure coming in at midnight

To recap, from midnight tonight the following restrictions apply in South Australia:

• All South Australians will have to stay put in their house for six days. Wherever they are at midnight tonight, that’s where they have to remain.
• All schools will be shut except for children of essential workers and vulnerable children;
• Childcare will be open only to essential workers, and shut to everyone else;
• People will not be permitted to leave their home to exercise.
• Takeaway food will be shut;
• Universities will be closed;
• Pubs, cafe’s, food courts and other food venues will be closed;
• Elective surgery will be closed, except for urgent operations;
• Cancer treatment will be closed;
• Real estate inspections will be closed;
• All outdoor sport and physical activity will not be permitted.
• Regional travel is not approved. Holiday houses are closed. Schoolies, which police commissioner Grant Stevens said yesterday was still on, is now off;
• Aged care and residential disability care is in lockdown;
• Factories other than for food and medical products are closed, apart from essential maintenance;
• The construction industry is closed;
• Weddings and funerals will be banned for six days;
• Face masks are required when outside the home, although it’s just encouraged not mandatory as many in SA do not yet have masks;
• Families with joint custody arrangements have been asked to find an arrangement that works for the next six days, without moving between houses.

Remaining open:

• Supermarkets will remain open for one visit from one person per household per day;
• Critical infrastructure — power, telecommunications — will remain open;
• Medical services including mental health services will remain open;
• Public transport will remain open;
• Airport and freight services will remain open;
• Petrol stations will remain open;
• Banks and financial institutions will remain open;
• Post offices will remain open;
• Mining, smelting, and large factories will be allowed to continue to operate at a level required to ensure continuity of service delivery or to prevent damage, but not for anything else;
• Veterinary surgeons will remain open;
• Agriculture workers will be able to move around to ensure the safety, welfare and processing of animals and animal products, like dairy

 

[Tony Babangida]

Yes. Can't believe Gladys has been bullied into leaving the NSW border open by Scotty from Marketing.

Have you also noticed how differently the Feds are talking about the SA Premier compared to how they (disgracefully) talked about Dan Andrews?

Think the Vic border is still open too. Although they are basically confined to their houses for 6 days so I hope not many people will be going interstate.

Liberals looking after one of their own. I enjoyed the WA premier calling out the Feds for their treatment of Dan Andrews.

 

[Carolina Red]

900 Mayo Clinic employees have contracted the virus in the past two weeks, a third of the staff.

When will people realize that this is a crucial issue, the collapse of the healthcare systems in any country? Isn’t forgoing a Thanksgiving, a night out, or even a few months of staying in worth it in the long run?

And their Covid ICU is at 100% capacity at the same time.

 

[Carolina Red]

SC has been ranging between 1100-1900 new cases per day, with % positives at 13-18%.

In the meantime, more and more schools are going to 100% capacity, 5 days per week, and all winter sports have been told to begin practice... including my sport - wrestling. So yeah... this should be interesting.

 

[Wibble]

Think the Vic border is still open too. Although they are basically confined to their houses for 6 days so I hope not many people will be going interstate.

Liberals looking after one of their own. I enjoyed the WA premier calling out the Feds for their treatment of Dan Andrews.

Scotty and his evil clown posse are utterly despicable. Hopefully SA have in effect shut the border from within and that will help prevent the spread.

 

[Andy_Cole]

This is probably a dumb question but why do you need agents if your buying power rivals any company in the world?

Surely suppliers will be desperate to have a direct conversation and strike a deal? At the end of the day, no business wants to use an agent and pay extra fees if they can avoid it

I have experience with the procurement of one of the biggest fashion companies in UK.

The reason for this is simply because they use a high number small factories in China that they need an agent there to first, find the factories that supply, but secondly because they have the relationship with the factories, the price provided by the agent beats the price provided if they went directly to supplier.

So everyone kicking off about £21m, would you prefer we paid £100m more direct to supplier?

 

[giggs-beckham]

A vaccine cant provoke the immune system any more than the actual disease does. And if it's at the point of being on a ventilator and probable organ failure there's nothing that can be done.

Ah yes I see, thanks.

 

[FireballXL5]

Head of NHS Test and Trace self-isolating

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54985232

Thought and prayers.

 

[Pexbo]

 

[finneh]

I have experience with the procurement of one of the biggest fashion companies in UK.

The reason for this is simply because they use a high number small factories in China that they need an agent there to first, find the factories that supply, but secondly because they have the relationship with the factories, the price provided by the agent beats the price provided if they went directly to supplier.

So everyone kicking off about £21m, would you prefer we paid £100m more direct to supplier?

This is true. In the private sector agents are used frequently because they add more value than they charge (whether that's to the supplier or the customer).

I think when discussing central government though there is always the potential for cronyism where agents happen to be connected to government and are taking a cut whilst not adding commercial value.

I've no doubt that during the floundering pandemic months there will be instances of opportunist cronyism, outright governmental ineptitude (it's easy to spend someone else's money without prudence) but also commercially equitable agent costs that sound ridiculously exorbitant to the general public.

Where this £21m falls, along with every other pound of pandemic spending, will hopefully be known in the fullness of time via an inquiry.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Don’t want to ruin his burn but I’m fairly sure she should only be self isolating for 10 days.

 

[Santos J]

Don’t want to ruin his burn but I’m fairly sure she should only be self isolating for 10 days.

Nope, it's 14 days from last contact with the positive case

 

[golden_blunder]

900 Mayo Clinic employees have contracted the virus in the past two weeks, a third of the staff.

When will people realize that this is a crucial issue, the collapse of the healthcare systems in any country? Isn’t forgoing a Thanksgiving, a night out, or even a few months of staying in worth it in the long run?

Is that from one hospital or seperate campus?

 

[golden_blunder]

Update on measure coming in at midnight

To recap, from midnight tonight the following restrictions apply in South Australia:

• All South Australians will have to stay put in their house for six days. Wherever they are at midnight tonight, that’s where they have to remain.
• All schools will be shut except for children of essential workers and vulnerable children;
• Childcare will be open only to essential workers, and shut to everyone else;
• People will not be permitted to leave their home to exercise.
• Takeaway food will be shut;
• Universities will be closed;
• Pubs, cafe’s, food courts and other food venues will be closed;
• Elective surgery will be closed, except for urgent operations;
• Cancer treatment will be closed;
• Real estate inspections will be closed;
• All outdoor sport and physical activity will not be permitted.
• Regional travel is not approved. Holiday houses are closed. Schoolies, which police commissioner Grant Stevens said yesterday was still on, is now off;
• Aged care and residential disability care is in lockdown;
• Factories other than for food and medical products are closed, apart from essential maintenance;
• The construction industry is closed;
• Weddings and funerals will be banned for six days;
• Face masks are required when outside the home, although it’s just encouraged not mandatory as many in SA do not yet have masks;
• Families with joint custody arrangements have been asked to find an arrangement that works for the next six days, without moving between houses.

Remaining open:

• Supermarkets will remain open for one visit from one person per household per day;
• Critical infrastructure — power, telecommunications — will remain open;
• Medical services including mental health services will remain open;
• Public transport will remain open;
• Airport and freight services will remain open;
• Petrol stations will remain open;
• Banks and financial institutions will remain open;
• Post offices will remain open;
• Mining, smelting, and large factories will be allowed to continue to operate at a level required to ensure continuity of service delivery or to prevent damage, but not for anything else;
• Veterinary surgeons will remain open;
• Agriculture workers will be able to move around to ensure the safety, welfare and processing of animals and animal products, like dairy

Wow! Proper lockdown.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Nope, it's 14 days from last contact with the positive case

Ah. Ok. Got mixed up with the 10 days self isolation when you test positive.