Sander Berge | Signs for Fulham

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nakpodiareuben said:
The problem is money!
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Money is indeed the problem but quite frankly it shouldn't be the case.

A- United need to accept their financial situation. I love Yoro and he's a generational talent. However does it really made sense spending so much for an 18 year old considering that we're in a financial mess and we have so many positions to fill?

B- We literally have an army of scouts. Should we start using them rather then relying on ETH's whatsapp group? Does it make sense to go for De Ligt and Mazraoui considering their injury record?

C- We need to be realistic. McT for 20m make sense and it represent pure profit, if AWB is determined to go to Inter then Id rather get Dumfries as a swap then let him go for a free in 6 months time or give him 7m for him to leave

Quite frankly I was expecting more 'Anselmino' type of signings ie young players on the cheap who represent low risk and can fill the positions we need. The likes of Shaw might be good but he can't be relied upon as he's always injure
 
Champ said:
It's all relative, United have received a huge amount of service from Maguire and probably has facilitated his fee from what we have recouped from him, whereas United got next to nothing from Djemba Djemba, in fact I'd go so far as to say United were at a detriment every time he was on the pitch.

Personally I have nothing against Berge, decent steady player who could do a job, not sure of that's enough for what United needs but it's better than an unpredictable Casemiro right now.
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Now lets analyze the cost. We spent 80m on him. Rumors back then were that Leicester insisted that we bought him at one go. That's makes the fee worse then its actually is because having it broken in installments give the club breathing space financially. Then he signed a 7 deal contract on €11,586,235.00 per year. That's 81m give and take. In total it become 161m. Do you think that it makes sense for a player who was only really quality first team material for how much 1-2 seasons at best?

Djemba was a low risk transfer. He came, he failed, he left and barely anyone noticed financially wise and pitch wise. If you sign 7 players like that and 2 succeed then its still a success because the benefit of the last 2 heavily outweigh the loss of the rest.
 
devilish said:
Money is indeed the problem but quite frankly it shouldn't be the case.

A- United need to accept their financial situation. I love Yoro and he's a generational talent. However does it really made sense spending so much for an 18 year old considering that we're in a financial mess and we have so many positions to fill?

B- We literally have an army of scouts. Should we start using them rather then relying on ETH's whatsapp group? Does it make sense to go for De Ligt and Mazraoui considering their injury record?

C- We need to be realistic. McT for 20m make sense and it represent pure profit, if AWB is determined to go to Inter then Id rather get Dumfries as a swap then let him go for a free in 6 months time or give him 7m for him to leave

Quite frankly I was expecting more 'Anselmino' type of signings ie young players on the cheap who represent low risk and can fill the positions we need. The likes of Shaw might be good but he can't be relied upon as he's always injure
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I don't think we overpaid for yoro at that age. Also knowing he is a first choice centre back in a position we need. I think a lot of us would have been a lot calmer if he is fit at this stage. I agree our scouts are shite. Wonder why we want to hurry and sell Scott while Erickson, pellistri, Maguire, Hannibal, Sancho and maybe lindelof are still on our wage bill. These guys are surplus to requirement
 
devilish said:
Money is indeed the problem but quite frankly it shouldn't be the case.

A- United need to accept their financial situation. I love Yoro and he's a generational talent. However does it really made sense spending so much for an 18 year old considering that we're in a financial mess and we have so many positions to fill?

B- We literally have an army of scouts. Should we start using them rather then relying on ETH's whatsapp group? Does it make sense to go for De Ligt and Mazraoui considering their injury record?

C- We need to be realistic. McT for 20m make sense and it represent pure profit, if AWB is determined to go to Inter then Id rather get Dumfries as a swap then let him go for a free in 6 months time or give him 7m for him to leave

Quite frankly I was expecting more 'Anselmino' type of signings ie young players on the cheap who represent low risk and can fill the positions we need. The likes of Shaw might be good but he can't be relied upon as he's always injure
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It’s a fair point, why haven’t we tapped the South American and African markets
 
saik said:
So you actually have no point then. I have acknowledged below that I haven't watched both much but based on stats there isn't much in between them. But you apparently rate Zubimendi and don't rate Berge so can you explain how these stats would be misleading that they appear similar? Keep in mind Berge played for a much less dominant team which makes it a bit more harder for him. Also, you second point is rubbish. There could be lot of reasons for him to not be an option as would be the case for a lot of other players. Zubimendi isn't a kid either, he's 25. Why wasn't he on any clubs radar until now?
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No, I don't have to answer to the nonsense Zubimendi strawman from someone who hasn't watched both players and thinks he is some kind of authority in this thread.
 
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nakpodiareuben said:
I don't think we overpaid for yoro at that age. Also knowing he is a first choice centre back in a position we need. I think a lot of us would have been a lot calmer if he is fit at this stage. I agree our scouts are shite. Wonder why we want to hurry and sell Scott while Erickson, pellistri, Maguire, Hannibal, Sancho and maybe lindelof are still on our wage bill. These guys are surplus to requirement
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I am not suggesting that we overpaid. He is a generational talent and we paid a relatively good price for him especially since its probably broken down in installments. However we're in a mess. We have a limited budget and we've got so many positions that need to be filled. I do question if its wise to spend so much on one player
 
the days when we can go out and spunk £80 odd million are gone so we have to face the reality of buying 'cheap' players. We cannot have a team of galacticos - in fact we probably never have - but our most successful period is when we had a bunch of kids out of our Academy that cost us nowt. Throw in one or two big money signings and bingo! But we don't have the patience any more to see the like of Amass, Collyer, Oyedele , Jackson etc etc coming through . So, yeah, Berge makes sense
 
devilish said:
Now lets analyze the cost. We spent 80m on him. Rumors back then were that Leicester insisted that we bought him at one go. That's makes the fee worse then its actually is because having it broken in installments give the club breathing space financially. Then he signed a 7 deal contract on €11,586,235.00 per year. That's 81m give and take. In total it become 161m. Do you think that it makes sense for a player who was only really quality first team material for how much 1-2 seasons at best?

Djemba was a low risk transfer. He came, he failed, he left and barely anyone noticed financially wise and pitch wise. If you sign 7 players like that and 2 succeed then its still a success because the benefit of the last 2 heavily outweigh the loss of the rest.
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Maguire is not a bad defender. But he just can't play a high line. We are all seeing his weakness because we are exposing his only weakness ( pace). At the time we bought him, it was a good deal. But immediately we started laying progressive football, it was catastrophy
 
golden_blunder said:
It’s a fair point, why haven’t we tapped the South American and African markets
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Ashworth and Berrada started last month. Ashworth in particular is key as he'll be the one judging how various football departments work and supervise the changes in each department. Thus I believe that this summer we're pretty much working with a similar structure to last season. Which kind of explain why most of the players we bided for have experience in the Eredivisie.
 
nakpodiareuben said:
Maguire is not a bad defender. But he just can't play a high line. We are all seeing his weakness because we are exposing his only weakness ( pace). At the time we bought him, it was a good deal. But immediately we started laying progressive football, it was catastrophy
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I am not suggesting that he's shit. We're not talking of a Prunier here. However ask yourself, does it make sense to spend 161m (fee and salary) on someone like him? If he walks on a free next season (which he probably will), would he represent a bigger loss then let say a 10m CB on 40k a week who failed at United and was sold to let's say, Everton for 5m?
 
trevor newnham said:
the days when we can go out and spunk £80 odd million are gone so we have to face the reality of buying 'cheap' players. We cannot have a team of galacticos - in fact we probably never have - but our most successful period is when we had a bunch of kids out of our Academy that cost us nowt. Throw in one or two big money signings and bingo! But we don't have the patience any more to see the like of Amass, Collyer, Oyedele , Jackson etc etc coming through . So, yeah, Berge makes sense
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What INEOS seem to want to achieve is to bring us back to the SAF glory days when we only bid big for players with some serious high potential (ex Rooney, Rio, Ronaldo etc). I agree with that notion though I do believe that for this summer alone we can't even afford that as well. But yes, the time when we spent 80m for a Maguire are over. Let's face it SAF wouldn't even dream to spend that money on Maguire either
 
devilish said:
Money is indeed the problem but quite frankly it shouldn't be the case.

A- United need to accept their financial situation. I love Yoro and he's a generational talent. However does it really made sense spending so much for an 18 year old considering that we're in a financial mess and we have so many positions to fill?

B- We literally have an army of scouts. Should we start using them rather then relying on ETH's whatsapp group? Does it make sense to go for De Ligt and Mazraoui considering their injury record?

C- We need to be realistic. McT for 20m make sense and it represent pure profit, if AWB is determined to go to Inter then Id rather get Dumfries as a swap then let him go for a free in 6 months time or give him 7m for him to leave

Quite frankly I was expecting more 'Anselmino' type of signings ie young players on the cheap who represent low risk and can fill the positions we need. The likes of Shaw might be good but he can't be relied upon as he's always injure
Click to expand...

If the club and the scouting department believe Yoro is generational then should we not go for him if we believe this may be our only chance? If we do end up bringing in De Ligt and Mazraoui, even for the fees that Bayern want that is a significant defensive upgrade to the squad for around €130mil which would include a first 11 CB, a generational talent and an upgrade in squad depth at lb and rb. We were likely never going to be able to overhaul both the defence and midfield just this summer, and its clear from last season the defence was the pressing issue.

In regards to Berge, a lot of fans have asked for more shrewd signings. It seems like Berge might fall into that category, as would De Ligt and Mazraoui to be frank. A CB who when fit (which his injury record is overblown) is a starter for bayern and was probably the best CB for Juve for €50mil or less, a backup fullback who can cover lb and rb while being a massive upgrade on the ball compared to AWB and a young CB who looks like he could probably challenge for a starting spot straight away and was coveted by the big clubs. They all seem like smart signings whether they played for Ten Hag or not.
 
devilish said:
I am not suggesting that we overpaid. He is a generational talent and we paid a relatively good price for him especially since its probably broken down in installments. However we're in a mess. We have a limited budget and we've got so many positions that need to be filled. I do question if its wise to spend so much on one player
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Are we really in a financial mess? Or are we just assuming that based on leaks the club is sending out.

I haven't seen any reliable analysis to suggest that we have cash flow or PSR problems. Seems like INEOS trying to set standards and getting us out of the mess which made buyers fleece us and sellers take us for mugs.

However, how that has led us to Berge I don't know. Seems like the bar is "is he better than Amrabat?"

I am guessing our inability to get of rid Casemiro and his high wages has a thrown a spanner in the works of our desire to go for a top class defensive midfielder.
 
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Almost funny comparing Sander Berge statistically with a few other midfielders that people in here have been very excited about. If we compare him to flavour of the summer, Martin Zubimendi, there is really not much between them at all.

There is two areas where Zubimendi looks significantly better. Progressive yards he move the ball with each pass and interceptions. Zubi moves the ball approx 4,75 yards forward with each pass. Berge is at 3,75. There is a similar difference in terms of number of passes into the final third 4,61 vs 3,86.

But there is very little between them looking at number of progressive passes 4,91 vs 5,15. Furthermore, Sander Berge has a higher accuracy of his passing at 88,1 % compared to 85,7 % for Zubimendi. Sander Berge also makes way more shot creating actions from passing and goal creating actions from passing (18 and 40 percent).

But this could also be down to the way a team set up or quality of the team. Zubimendi plays in a top six team in Spain. In a side he has played for years. Sander Berge played his first season in a new club in a relegation side. Real Socidad are more dominating and makes more passes in the final third than Burnley. It will probably be easier for Zubimendi to find team mates higher up the pitch and in the final third than for Berge.

I was really surprised to see Berge «better» Zubimendi at completion rate as the Burnley team has way significantly lower average overall. Same with creating.

The other area where Zubi excel compared to Berge is interceptions. But this too is much of a style thing. Sandef Berge makes more ball recoveries overall than Zubimendi. He also makes more tackles, and their tackles + interception numbers are basically identical 2,96 vs 2,92 in favour of Berge. You might expect Berge to make more recoveries than Zubimendi as Burnley have the ball less. But it is actually the other way around. Real Sociedad are more aggressive and makes more recoveries as a team than Burnley.

Another area where Berge really stands out is progressive carries, carries into the final third and penalty box. He also lose the ball less than Zubimendi.

I also think Berge looks way stronger in duels. That is really not surprising considering his pace and size.

I dont think this imply that their quality and potential is the same. Zubimendi might be a lot better. But I’ve seen people using stats against Berge. That makes little sense in my opinion.
 
andersj said:
Berge are one of the quickest players in the PL.
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You got any form of evidence or even indications to back this claim up?
I can’t imagine he is anywhere near the quickest players in the PL (based on “the eye test” from watching him play for both club and country).
 
userman said:
You got any form of evidence or even indications to back this claim up?
I can’t imagine he is anywhere near the quickest players in the PL (based on “the eye test” from watching him play for both club and country).
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There was a stat kicking about earlier this week (don't know where from) that he clocked an extremely fast pace last season, one of the quickest in the league.

Cheers @Samid couldn't think where the stat would be.
 
Samid said:
https://www.premierleague.com/news/3787214
https://www.premierleague.com/news/4025726

At 35.90 km/h he's faster than the fastest United player (Dalot at 35.46 km/h).
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Vault Dweller said:
There was a stat kicking about earlier this week (don't know where from) that he clocked an extremely fast pace last season, one of the quickest in the league.

Cheers @Samid couldn't think where the stat would be.
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Thanks - I stand corrected. Genuinely surprised by this.
 
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3KDré said:


Plays like a DM should. Right pass at the right time. Right position at the right time. £15-20m would be solid.
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How can anyone watch comps like this and not see how he would be useful to us?
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Mainoo, Berge, Martinez and De ligt is really slow for a team that wants to play transition football
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How is Berge slow? Or Mainoo for that matter? Why does it matter how fast your centrebacks are during a transition when they aren't the forwards who are going to exploit the spaces ?
 
Sunny Jim said:
We need a Marko Arnautovic level of on-line backslash if this is indeed moving forward
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Some of this kind of stuff cracks me up.

We spend years signing high profile 'superstars' and there's constant backlash on here and enquiries why we can't identify perceived lesser players who could come and do a job for us like liverpool were doing when they were plucking the likes of mane (who people also moaned about when we were linked to him), robertson, etc.

We have a footballing structure now (which people have been crying out for) and they have identified Berge as someone who can come in and do a job for us. None of us know how he's going to turn out for us in our system, it's laughable that people are writing him off because he's not some high profile signing.
 
andersj said:
Not only that, he is really, really fast at short sprints too. At Genk he was the quickest players at 10 and 20 meter. He was also the most agile one being the quickest in an obstacle course. I saw an norwegian article on on X the other day (use chatgpt for translation).

https://www.vg.no/sport/fotball/i/2EOEx/sander-berge-tester-vekker-oppsikt-veldig-uvant
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That surprises me, because that's what I doubt him on. Maybe this is real moneyball stuff and bias at play.
 
flameinthesun said:
If the club and the scouting department believe Yoro is generational then should we not go for him if we believe this may be our only chance? If we do end up bringing in De Ligt and Mazraoui, even for the fees that Bayern want that is a significant defensive upgrade to the squad for around €130mil which would include a first 11 CB, a generational talent and an upgrade in squad depth at lb and rb. We were likely never going to be able to overhaul both the defence and midfield just this summer, and its clear from last season the defence was the pressing issue.

In regards to Berge, a lot of fans have asked for more shrewd signings. It seems like Berge might fall into that category, as would De Ligt and Mazraoui to be frank. A CB who when fit (which his injury record is overblown) is a starter for bayern and was probably the best CB for Juve for €50mil or less, a backup fullback who can cover lb and rb while being a massive upgrade on the ball compared to AWB and a young CB who looks like he could probably challenge for a starting spot straight away and was coveted by the big clubs. They all seem like smart signings whether they played for Ten Hag or not.
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I am not against yoro deal. He's a generational talent and if done correctly (multiple installments) then he will represent a shrewd signing. The devil will lie in the details of how the deal was made. I am pleased with the salary offered so on that part we did a good job

Regarding de ligt again the devil lie in the details. The guy is decent but he is also injury prone and he's on silly salary. For that deal to make sense then the feeling must be lowered to 35m-40m and he should be willing to accept a salary cut to around 150k-160k. That would put him between the Martinez and the saliba bracket

Mazraoui is a weird one with his set of strengths (ex versatility) and one huge weakness (injury prone) . I understand that he is cheap but that means nothing if he vanishes in the treatment room

Berge I have no issues with if done correctly

I am slightly miffed that we are still relying on Eth WhatsApp group for signings. I understand why it's happening and I am sure that it will change next summer but we need to also acknowledge how important this transfer window is. With 5+1 contracts being dished for almost every new signing then mistakes done at this stage might cost us big down the line

We need to start tapping more in the SA/Northern European/ African markets. There are some, very shrewd, signings to be done there. Meanwhile I suggest that we hire better fitness people+ someone who is an expert with dealing with ME clubs. We need them to get rid of the deadwood
 
Santos J said:
Not been one mentioned. The Sun said £30m which loads got their arse in a tangle about but can't see it being that high.
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Transfermrkt says £17mil. Under contract till 2027. £17mil would be a steal.
 
dinostar77 said:
How is Berge slow? Or Mainoo for that matter? Why does it matter how fast your centrebacks are during a transition when they aren't the forwards who are going to exploit the spaces ?
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The question is in your own response. If we're playing a transitional game we have to be prepared for transition too. If we want to deal with THEIR forwards exploting the space we need the people staying back to be capable of defending that.

Liverpool were probably the best transition team of recent times and they were full of athletes: Robertson, Van Dijk, Konate, Matip, Gomez, Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Henderson. City made a conscious effort to become a more athletic team (hence 4CBs) and that's how they won the treble. Arsenal, too. Madrid have a crazy athletic base, I could go on.

A backline of Shaw Martinez Yoro Dalot is athletic enough. Problem is Lindelof, Maguire, Evans aren't and we use them regularly. Our current RB backup is AWB who is being sold and Amass, a child. This is why I would be opposed to the De Ligt signing. He's not a bad player at all I just think we need more athletes in the backline + CDM.
 
andersj said:
Not only that, he is really, really fast at short sprints too. At Genk he was the quickest players at 10 and 20 meter. He was also the most agile one being the quickest in an obstacle course. I saw an norwegian article on on X the other day (use chatgpt for translation).

https://www.vg.no/sport/fotball/i/2EOEx/sander-berge-tester-vekker-oppsikt-veldig-uvant
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Yes I remember reading this back then, and I also remember that he had a nice spring in his step when he played for Vålerenga - also in his Genk/early Sheffield United days. Just felt that he had lost some of his pace, but apparently not (though his pace could have been more visible when he played more of a roaming b2b role back then rather then a DM now).
 
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Walters_19_MuFc said:
What metrics are United looking for?

You mentioned ball retention and winning the ball back? What are the others?
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They are looking for a player who can stop the turnovers from the opposition. Both centrally and in the half-positions of each flank when our full-backs advance. If we lose the ball high up, we need a disciplined reader of the game who is adept at shielding our defensive line and winning that ball back, then recycling possession for us.

Berge and Collyer and Casemiro will play this role for us next season. One position. Three players to choose from. At three different ages. We are looking for this balance of age-range across every position on the pitch. Eventually. This is why Ratcliffe admits it will take four transfer windows.

Mount/Mainoo/Bruno/McTom/Diallo/Gore will be the options to be the two playmakers playing slightly ahead of this No.6 position.

Let's also remember - and this is KEY - that United just bought Yoro and will buy De Ligt. These are central defenders, but they are CRUCIAL to our midfield. As this will allow our defensive line to play on the half-way line when in possession. So Berge/Collyer/Case will sit just in front, shielding them.

It won't be like last year where, because we had Maguire/Evans/Awb/Lindelof in our backline which meant we couldn't defend on the half-way line, so had to defend 20-yards from goal.

With the defensive line pushed up, there will not be that acre of space in midfield which was so evident last year.

Signing high-line defenders in Yoro, De Ligt and Mazrouri does SO MUCH for our midfield before we even buy a mid-aged no.6.
 
3KDré said:
The question is in your own response. If we're playing a transitional game we have to be prepared for transition too. If we want to deal with THEIR forwards exploting the space we need the people staying back to be capable of defending that.

Liverpool were probably the best transition team of recent times and they were full of athletes: Robertson, Van Dijk, Konate, Matip, Gomez, Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Henderson. City made a conscious effort to become a more athletic team (hence 4CBs) and that's how they won the treble. Arsenal, too. Madrid have a crazy athletic base, I could go on.

A backline of Shaw Martinez Yoro Dalot is athletic enough. Problem is Lindelof, Maguire, Evans aren't and we use them regularly. Our current RB backup is AWB who is being sold and Amass, a child. This is why I would be opposed to the De Ligt signing. He's not a bad player at all I just think we need more athletes in the backline + CDM.
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Shaw is non existent at this point. He only turn out for England

The issue isn't just athleticism but height. That's because corners and set pieces needs to be defended against/exploited. Martinez is a disaster on that aerial duel won (0.5). Yoro is better (1.4) but not as good as saliba (1.8) let alone a Maguire. We need inches and berge (1.8) can help. We need tall players in the defence else we have to rely on the likes of McT
 
I love how YouTube can make any player look like a world beater

 
I know people are very upset about this, and I'm not feeling that positive about it either after thinking we were getting Ugarte.

However, I do think he's the profile of player that would fit in well next to Mainoo and allow him to focus on the strong part of his game. Against the best midfields in the league it's probably going to be found wanting, especially if our defenders and attackers aren't on it, but it would probably see us through this season. You can probably play Casemiro with him as well as more of an #8 and he won't be as exposed as he was last season.

For £20-25m I would be ok with it. Go big next summer if you can and then make Berge a usable rotation option. At least this way you won't end up in a situation like with Maguire, where he's a good player but cost £80m and is now effectively 3rd choice at CB and on £200k+ a week.
 
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