Really? Let's see a list of players from the last eleven years who weren't rated on here and turned out to be gems.It’s always a great sign when people on the Caf don’t rate the player
Sander Berge | Signs for Fulham
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
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It’s always a great sign when people on the Caf don’t rate the player
Can you even think of a single example of a signing that there was negativity about turning out good?
Because I can only think of the other sort. AWB, Maguire, Antony, Mount etc.
Not particularly excited by this one in fact id rather we just got Amrabat at half the price and I don’t rate him that highly either.
Valencia.
People don't want to hear this, but what's likely happening is that we're potentially planning to hold on the starting DM role due to finding it difficult to sell Casemiro. As a result, we are surveying good squad and rotation options that can help us in regard to depth, with the idea to regularly have a constant rotation of Mainoo, Casemiro and the new signing. Similar to how Butt/Scholes or Fletcher/Anderson/Giggs used to rotate.
The idea is probably that in the short term, Casemiro actually still has good playing ability, but cannot be asked to cover as many games and minutes as we have regularly asked of him, which is leading to the appearance of decline. Our approach in the last 2 seasons, would have seen Modric and Kroos looking well and truly past it. So this would protect Casemiro for the time being, with additional support coming from Collyer. Before we assess again and make a decision to find Mainoo's partner, whether that's from within the club or outside of it.
The idea is probably that in the short term, Casemiro actually still has good playing ability, but cannot be asked to cover as many games and minutes as we have regularly asked of him, which is leading to the appearance of decline. Our approach in the last 2 seasons, would have seen Modric and Kroos looking well and truly past it. So this would protect Casemiro for the time being, with additional support coming from Collyer. Before we assess again and make a decision to find Mainoo's partner, whether that's from within the club or outside of it.
Maybe because he was PSV’s captain who led them to an Eredivisie title and had many caps for The Netherlands including being part of the Dutch team that finished 3rd in the World Cup 2014.
It was hugely surprising at the time that he went to Newcastle. Berge has no such CV.
What you're describing is exactly the reason we would be going for Berge this summer, it's funny how you don't realize that.
-Compared to most other options, he's much cheaper
-Arguably a better fit than the more expensive options, like Ugarte, in fact I'd be quite confident in saying that he's an upgrade on him
-Temporary "solution" that allows us to later get exactly who we want, and then Berge is sold, maybe even for a profit, or becomes a good squad player for us. All he has to do for either of these to happen is just be half-decent for United.
It's easier to offload a 20m player on 70k/week when it's time for them to leave, than to offload a 50 million player on 150k/week, who also wouldn't be completely suitable for us (and like I said, I'd argue Berge is a better fit than most of the expensive options anyway)
You're just making the assumption that Berge is a vastly inferior player to the other, fancier names we've been linked to, like Ugarte/Zubimendi/Fofana.
The stuff about "there's no such thing as raising the floor" is just not true, either.
Also, we literally lost out on both Kane and Rice because we signed Casemiro, when we could've just signed someone decent there for 20-30m on a fraction of the 350k/week wages as well.
What if we get Ugarte, he's average for us, but it means we can't get Adam Wharton next summer? Or Branthwaite? Would be the Casemiro mistake all over again, but of course fans don't realize the mistake when we make it, but are very quick to criticize the club 2 years later, in hindsight.
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How are people trying to dress this up as not a terrible idea?
No matter who we're linked with people will eventually twist themselves in knots to pretend that it's actually a great idea. The cope never ends. (I'm also on the Berge cope train due to my fetish for tall, athletic players)
We could be linked with Jonjo Shelvey and it would play out like:
Monday: This isn't happening
Tuesday: Can't believe we're actually interested in him. He's shit and he's been injured for 3 years.
Wednesday: I guess he was actually good for Newcastle at times... but that was nearly a decade ago
Thursday: He does still have a great switch of play on him. Nice shiny head too
Friday: Here's a YouTube video from his loan at Rizespor: You Won't Believe How Good Jonjo Shelvey Is In 2024 - Amazing Skills, Goals, Passes & Tackles | Technical Elegance | HD
Saturday: This scatter chart shows Jonjo Shelvey is actually still elite. Look at all the green on FBRef. Moneyball?
Sunday: If we don't sign Jonjo Shelvey we're absolutely fecked
Im sorry I don't buy into this idea. We literally have no competent 6. Berge may not be optimal but on paper he'd be a good foil for Mainoo and Bruno.
You consider our options it's not very broad. If it's Berge and one other then the value is strong. For example Berge plus Ederson for a combined fee that's similar to one Ugarte is much better business.
I do understand your concern with solely Berge.
You are arguing in bad faith here. You wanted examples, then when you got them you instantly moved goalposts and added nuances.
No matter who we're linked with people will eventually twist themselves in knots to pretend that it's actually a great idea. The cope never ends. (I'm also on the Berge cope train due to my fetish for tall, athletic players)
We could be linked with Jonjo Shelvey and it would play out like:
Monday: This isn't happening
Tuesday: Can't believe we're actually interested in him. He's shit and he's been injured for 3 years.
Wednesday: I guess he was actually good for Newcastle at times... but that was nearly a decade ago
Thursday: He does still have a great switch of play on him. Nice shiny head too
Friday: Here's a YouTube video from his loan at Rizespor: You Won't Believe How Good Jonjo Shelvey Is In 2024 - Amazing Skills, Goals, Passes & Tackles | Technical Elegance | HD
Saturday: This scatter chart shows Jonjo Shelvey is actually still elite. Look at all the green on FBRef. Moneyball?
Sunday: If we don't sign Jonjo Shelvey we're absolutely fecked
This is very true. We could be linked to Andy Carroll and some on here would start making a case for him. Especially a couple of jokers who are constantly surprised that others don't have this great vision that they possess.
I can't take us seriously anymore.
How are people trying to dress this up as not a terrible idea?
We'd be better off suffering and keeping the money for when someone good enough becomes available rather than spending it on someone who might be ok in the championship and leaving ourselves unable to then sign anyone else.
Absloutely batsh*t crazy that its even being thought about.
Sometimes especially in todays football its about finding the right player for the right system rather than always looking for the most standout individuals (in fact you could accuse us of doing precisely that for a number of seasons with mediocre results Sancho ect) .
It looks in this case purely like we've identified a string of attributes/abilities we need in the team, then we've used statistical data to find an available or list of available players who fit the metrics we're looking for e.g. positioning, speed, strength in duels, direct ball playing abilty and more and it would seem if you look at Berge from a statistical perspective he ticks all the right boxes.
Constructing a good squad is sometimes about identifying what's needed attribute and abilty wise and finding the right fit and if you focus solely on what United lack in terms of current cm personel this transfer makes good sense.
As I said you can't always galactico your way to sucess, increasing in the modern game it's about building a playing style/identity/game model and finding players who fit in with that style/identity, that looks like what we're trying to do here and in a way that could prove to be a very shrewd move going by statistics ( I also think he passes the eye test pretty well as he looks a good footballer) .
You look at the squad liverpool had assembled under Kloop and you will find multiple instances of this, with Endo probably being the latest example of a signing who at 30 years old probably left most scratching their heads when he was linked with Liverpool, but has come in and whilst not exactly pulling up trees has still fitting into the squad well and played his role in a team with a set identity.
Sometimes it's just about identifying a square hole in a system and getting a square object to fill it.
I didn't say ignore their opinions, I said it would be unfair on him to judge him based on their opinions. It’s important to base our evaluations of players on our own team's needs and performance rather than solely relying on external opinions. Opposition fans might rate McTominay highly too, that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s the right fit for our squad. They don’t watch us week in and week out to fully understand the strengths and weaknesses of our midfield options.
Moreover, judging a player based on how others perceive them can be misleading. For instance, how many fans initially rated Jordan Henderson as a Premier League or Champions League-winning midfielder, or Nathan Ake as a top-tier defender? There is nuance in assessing a player's value beyond their past affiliations or public perception.
Rather than outright dismissing a player because they’ve played for relegated teams or because other fans might not rate them highly, it’s more constructive to evaluate them based on how they would fit into our system and address our specific needs.
"Nuances" like rightly calling out the comparison as complete bollocks? Wijnaldum had captained PSV to an Eredivisie title, started in a World Cup semi-final and been named Dutch Footballer of the Year before he joined Newcastle. Yet apparently he wasn't any more an "established" player than Sander fecking Berge.
Some people have completely lost their heads in here.
Plenty of strikers in recent years have been there not to score goals but to facilitate players around them. Giroud, Mandzukic come to mind. They may not have had good seasons just because of Weghorst but he definitely helped facilitate. He made a lot of runs that stretched the defence for Rashford to come in and exploit.
Anyway the point is many times I've seen average players play pivotal roles in a great team because they fit what the team needs. You can have better players in the same role and they would be less effective. I think this applies to Berge, from what I have seen.
Go on then, tell us exactly why you don't rate Berge? You apparently seem to rate Zubimendi in his thread and judging from the stats there is not a lot in between them. So what makes Berge so terrible and Zubimendi so great? Assuming you have watched them both loads ofcourse.
This is very true. We could be linked to Andy Carroll and some on here would start making a case for him. Especially a couple of jokers who are constantly surprised that others don't have this great vision that they possess.
a big fat no from me
He wasn't even the OP
Perfect example Jorginho who everyone thought was finished, becomes an important player in their team. Everyone scoffed at Havertz transfer and now he's important to the team. Not because they drastically improved as players, but because they suited the role that was needed in the team.
I get that these two in particular are greater quality than Berge, but it's about the principle behind it. Akanji is another example - wasn't anything special at Dortmund got let go for £15m - but he had the right physical and technical attributes and he fit the system - so he looked much better.
People seem to forget that the difference between majority of Top 5 league level players is not 20/30% but 2/3%. That 3% can be made up when they fit the role/system.
First you go on and give me your detailed scouting report on Berge. Also, tell me how many times have you mentioned him as an option for us in the 4.5 seasons he has been in English football and how many times in the various midfield threads this summer window.
Another aspect that we overlook is that we may have seen that we aren't in a position to spend big money on a player because our recruitment is not yet up and running to the standard we would like so we are spending on what we think are relatively sure bets (Yoro), players with a potentially big upside (Zirkee) and tried to pick up useful bargains from other top teams who, as we found out, want to fleece us.
In this situation, it's better to spend on a journey man who will do a job for a couple of seasons (most likely one) whilst alternating with Casemiro and Collyer. In this period a few questions will be answered; does Collyer have it? Is Casemiro's decline terminal? Has the punt on Berge worked?
During that period the Football Structure is building up it's own scouting database, scouts are being recruited and players are getting assessed properly. Come summer of 25, we are ready to move in on a big signing for the DM. So spending 25m to get a player who serves as a transitional player at worst but who has the tools to make the role his, if we are extremely lucky, makes sense.
A very good point. I'm certain Ashworth will have his little birds, for lack of a better term, flown all across the globe. But this takes time, he joined on 1st July. I'm fine with waiting. He's the only underwhelming name in an intake of 4-5.
Are Sander Berge and fofana similar players or different? From little I know of them fofana is more box to box and Berge is more of a holding midfielder. If that's the case, could Utd sign both of they were cheap enough? Or would it be one of the other?
Agreed, and all better examples than the one I used. If a coach has an identity in the modern game, he normally just needs good options capable of fitting in with that identity.
I do not know about Zubemendi, I have not watched him alot (except for the euros where I was really impressed by him), but I have seen very much of Berge and he is not very good, he is ok for a team between 8-15 in the table, his passing is okay, but most of it sideways or backwards, very slow and not uncommon to let his CB's exposed in defensive positions in counter attacks, his positioning is good while he tries to be available for his teammates when beating the press but his positioning in defensive setups is not that good which makes him not a good asset to intercept balls. Overall he is ok for teams like Everton and CP but not Manchester united.
This is key, it's risky to authorise big moves that will have implications over the next three or more seasons, financially and on the pitch, within one month of getting the job. Players like Berge won't have trouble attracting buyers if we ensure that he earns below 80k/week. He becomes another body to count on, he was highly rated a few years back and a challenge as big as this one could spur him.
At worst he buys us time, it could be time to buy another one next season or to nurture one of our young DMs (Collyer or Gore) and it's not as big a risk as handing out Rabiot a 5 year, 200k/wk contract with maybe 10m signing on bonus. If he is overwhelmed by the task we can loan him out until he is sold but we won't be worse off. If we can negotiate a 20m plus add ons fee and wages of circa 70k he won't be difficult to shift. If he does decently Ashworth and Co look like rainmakers.
Palace played better football than we did last season so let's not go there.
So you think he replaced Ronaldo well?
I feel like I've been transported back to 2011.
Aye he's also 26. If he doesn't work out we sell in 1-2 years.
A good way to miss the main point.
Are you talking about the instances where he receives under pressure from his keeper, or defenders, and he passes it backwards or sideways? Because that's what his job is in those situations. And he's actually very impressive at receiving under pressure and retaining possession. He's also good at passing forward when the opportunity presents itself, as well as carrying the ball forward. You might be wrongly expecting things from him that he isn't supposed to do.
So given his prolific form in Germany and his international exploits with the Netherlands, Weghorst must’ve been a good pickup for us, going by your metrics…
So you actually have no point then. I have acknowledged below that I haven't watched both much but based on stats there isn't much in between them. But you apparently rate Zubimendi and don't rate Berge so can you explain how these stats would be misleading that they appear similar? Keep in mind Berge played for a much less dominant team which makes it a bit more harder for him. Also, you second point is rubbish. There could be lot of reasons for him to not be an option as would be the case for a lot of other players. Zubimendi isn't a kid either, he's 25. Why wasn't he on any clubs radar until now?
I'm for signing Berger but this is fecking brilliantNo matter who we're linked with people will eventually twist themselves in knots to pretend that it's actually a great idea. The cope never ends. (I'm also on the Berge cope train due to my fetish for tall, athletic players)
We could be linked with Jonjo Shelvey and it would play out like:
Monday: This isn't happening
Tuesday: Can't believe we're actually interested in him. He's shit and he's been injured for 3 years.
Wednesday: I guess he was actually good for Newcastle at times... but that was nearly a decade ago
Thursday: He does still have a great switch of play on him. Nice shiny head too
Friday: Here's a YouTube video from his loan at Rizespor: You Won't Believe How Good Jonjo Shelvey Is In 2024 - Amazing Skills, Goals, Passes & Tackles | Technical Elegance | HD
Saturday: This scatter chart shows Jonjo Shelvey is actually still elite. Look at all the green on FBRef. Moneyball?
Sunday: If we don't sign Jonjo Shelvey we're absolutely fecked
Not only that situation, but also where he should pass forward, unfortunately I do not have a very accurate stat to compare because it is also dependable on the other players of the team to give passing options, but roughly he averages only 10 passes per 90 minutes forward, that is a very small number, compared to Rice 16 per 90 min and compared to Casemiro 24 per 90 minutes.
Well I've seen him play for both Burnley and Sheff Utd and I think he's a good player. Was easily the best player in both teams. Let's not pretend that most of the people against the signing have seen him play. They see he played for 2 relegated teams and maybe watched Goldbridge's rant and assume he must be crap.
He's not going to be world class but he'd suit what we need in midfield. The only dm that would have actually improved the first xi significantly was Neves imo. All the rest are just squad rotation options. I'd prefer this to spending the crazy amounts being suggested for Ugarte when we don't even have the funds to finance it.
This would be less of a concern than many other players we've been linked with imo. How we haven't invested in a starting lb is mind boggling
He actually has a decent passing completion % while attempting decent number of passes. And that's while playing for Burnley. Playing with good players around him should improve those numbers one would hope. I don't mind his sideways passes if it helps us retain possession a bit more while letting the attackers do their work. My point is he appears to be better at the midfield things that help a team retain possession than the likes of McT and Casemiro. So, in that case I don't mind him here as a squad player.
Well, Rice isn't known for his passing, and a lot of people wrongly expect him to be world class at is as well, but it's not his job either. Still, 16/90 at Arsenal doesn't seem that impressive compared to 10/90 at Burnley, does it? Berge could probably reach Rice's number at United, and recycling possession is an important thing I think Berge could probably help us with, compared to Casemiro or McTominay.
I have a feeling we are looking at Adam Wharton as our long-term target, and see no point in splashing 50m on a midfielder we don't truly want, when alternatives for half that, like Berge, are able to do a decent job too, until the long-term target is obtained, be that Wharton or someone else.
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