Really? Let's see a list of players from the last eleven years who weren't rated on here and turned out to be gems.It’s always a great sign when people on the Caf don’t rate the player
Really? Let's see a list of players from the last eleven years who weren't rated on here and turned out to be gems.It’s always a great sign when people on the Caf don’t rate the player
It’s always a great sign when people on the Caf don’t rate the player
Valencia.Can you even think of a single example of a signing that there was negativity about turning out good?
Because I can only think of the other sort. AWB, Maguire, Antony, Mount etc.
Maybe because he was PSV’s captain who led them to an Eredivisie title and had many caps for The Netherlands including being part of the Dutch team that finished 3rd in the World Cup 2014.How was Wijnaldum a clearly established player when his first season in the prem saw him getting relegated with Newcastle?
We are I the era of ffp where blowing money on someone who isn't good enough as some kind of stop gap will still hurt you in 2-3 years time.
This is what loan signings were invented for. Temporary solutions when you can't get exactly what you want and don't have money to waste on in-betweens
Aren't we currently in a pickle because we keep paying loads of money for sub standard players and then not being able to move them on? What do you think would be the most likely outcome of this signing?
How are people trying to dress this up as not a terrible idea?
Im sorry I don't buy into this idea. We literally have no competent 6. Berge may not be optimal but on paper he'd be a good foil for Mainoo and Bruno.There is no such thing as improving the floor. If you aim to make yourself better at not being good enough then guess what happens?
If we spend say £30m on him, or even half that. This is money we then can't use to fund other transfers. We already know we can't sign players we want because we can't raise funds/sell thr ones we have. So to suggest this wouldn't severely impact that is simply false.
We don't have to pretend every crazy thing the club does is a good idea just because it's a new set up, and again, not one person in this thread this time last week would be arguing that signing a midfielder from Burnley who doesn't stand out in their team, was in any way not a bad idea.
Maybe because he was PSV’s captain who led them to an Eredivisie title and had many caps for The Netherlands including being part of the Dutch team that finished 3rd in the World Cup 2014.
It was hugely surprising at the time that he went to Newcastle. Berge has no such CV.
No matter who we're linked with people will eventually twist themselves in knots to pretend that it's actually a great idea. The cope never ends. (I'm also on the Berge cope train due to my fetish for tall, athletic players)
We could be linked with Jonjo Shelvey and it would play out like:
Monday: This isn't happening
Tuesday: Can't believe we're actually interested in him. He's shit and he's been injured for 3 years.
Wednesday: I guess he was actually good for Newcastle at times... but that was nearly a decade ago
Thursday: He does still have a great switch of play on him. Nice shiny head too
Friday: Here's a YouTube video from his loan at Rizespor: You Won't Believe How Good Jonjo Shelvey Is In 2024 - Amazing Skills, Goals, Passes & Tackles | Technical Elegance | HD
Saturday: This scatter chart shows Jonjo Shelvey is actually still elite. Look at all the green on FBRef. Moneyball?
Sunday: If we don't sign Jonjo Shelvey we're absolutely fecked
I can't take us seriously anymore.
How are people trying to dress this up as not a terrible idea?
We'd be better off suffering and keeping the money for when someone good enough becomes available rather than spending it on someone who might be ok in the championship and leaving ourselves unable to then sign anyone else.
Absloutely batsh*t crazy that its even being thought about.
Just ignoring the opinion of Burnley fans and Norweigans? Who are not opposition fans, they're the fans of the teams he plays for. And I'm yet to see a single one who rates him as a top four Prem calibre player.
The only people who seem to rate him in this thread have never seen him play beyond youtube and twitter montages.
"Nuances" like rightly calling out the comparison as complete bollocks? Wijnaldum had captained PSV to an Eredivisie title, started in a World Cup semi-final and been named Dutch Footballer of the Year before he joined Newcastle. Yet apparently he wasn't any more an "established" player than Sander fecking Berge.You are arguing in bad faith here. You wanted examples, then when you got them you instantly moved goalposts and added nuances.
Plenty of strikers in recent years have been there not to score goals but to facilitate players around them. Giroud, Mandzukic come to mind. They may not have had good seasons just because of Weghorst but he definitely helped facilitate. He made a lot of runs that stretched the defence for Rashford to come in and exploit.He’s a striker, he’s supposed to score goals that’s his job and he was terrible at it. Bruno and Rashford didn’t have good seasons because of Weghorst, they had good seasons because they’re good players. Weghorst was literally just there as a body on the pitch because we didn’t have anyone else.
Go on then, tell us exactly why you don't rate Berge? You apparently seem to rate Zubimendi in his thread and judging from the stats there is not a lot in between them. So what makes Berge so terrible and Zubimendi so great? Assuming you have watched them both loads ofcourse.
This is very true. We could be linked to Andy Carroll and some on here would start making a case for him. Especially a couple of jokers who are constantly surprised that others don't have this great vision that they possess.
He wasn't even the OPYou are arguing in bad faith here. You wanted examples, then when you got them you instantly moved goalposts and added nuances.
Perfect example Jorginho who everyone thought was finished, becomes an important player in their team. Everyone scoffed at Havertz transfer and now he's important to the team. Not because they drastically improved as players, but because they suited the role that was needed in the team.Sometimes especially in todays football its about finding the right player for the right system rather than always looking for the most standout individuals (in fact you could accuse us of doing precisely that for a number of seasons with mediocre results Sancho ect) .
It looks in this case purely like we've identified a string of attributes/abilities we need in the team, then we've used statistical data to find an available or list of available players who fit the metrics we're looking for e.g. positioning, speed, strength in duels, direct ball playing abilty and more and it would seem if you look at Berge from a statistical perspective he ticks all the right boxes.
Constructing a good squad is sometimes about identifying what's needed attribute and abilty wise and finding the right fit and if you focus solely on what United lack in terms of current cm personel this transfer makes good sense.
As I said you can't always galactico your way to sucess, increasing in the modern game it's about building a playing style/identity/game model and finding players who fit in with that style/identity, that looks like what we're trying to do here and in a way that could prove to be a very shrewd move going by statistics ( I also think he passes the eye test pretty well as he looks a good footballer) .
You look at the squad liverpool had assembled under Kloop and you will find multiple instances of this, with Endo probably being the latest example of a signing who at 30 years old probably left most scratching their heads when he was linked with Liverpool, but has come in and whilst not exactly pulling up trees has still fitting into the squad well and played his role in a team with a set identity.
Sometimes it's just about identifying a square hole in a system and getting a square object to fill it.
First you go on and give me your detailed scouting report on Berge. Also, tell me how many times have you mentioned him as an option for us in the 4.5 seasons he has been in English football and how many times in the various midfield threads this summer window.Go on then, tell us exactly why you don't rate Berge? You apparently seem to rate Zubimendi in his thread and judging from the stats there is not a lot in between them. So what makes Berge so terrible and Zubimendi so great? Assuming you have watched them both loads ofcourse.
Another aspect that we overlook is that we may have seen that we aren't in a position to spend big money on a player because our recruitment is not yet up and running to the standard we would like so we are spending on what we think are relatively sure bets (Yoro), players with a potentially big upside (Zirkee) and tried to pick up useful bargains from other top teams who, as we found out, want to fleece us.Im sorry I don't buy into this idea. We literally have no competent 6. Berge may not be optimal but on paper he'd be a good foil for Mainoo and Bruno.
You consider our options it's not very broad. If it's Berge and one other then the value is strong. For example Berge plus Ederson for a combined fee that's similar to one Ugarte is much better business.
I do understand your concern with solely Berge.
A very good point. I'm certain Ashworth will have his little birds, for lack of a better term, flown all across the globe. But this takes time, he joined on 1st July. I'm fine with waiting. He's the only underwhelming name in an intake of 4-5.Another aspect that we overlook is that we may have seen that we aren't in a position to spend big money on a player because our recruitment is not yet up and running to the standard we would like so we are spending on what we thing are relatively sure bets (Yoro), players with a potentially big upside (Zirkee) and tried to pick up useful bargains from other top teams who, as we found out, want to fleece us.
In this situation, it's better to spend on a journey man who will do a job for a couple of seasons (most likely one) whilst alternating with Casemiro and Collyer. In this period a few questions will be answered; does Collyer have it? Is Casemiro's decline terminal? Has the punt on Berge worked?
During that period the Football Structure is building up it's own scouting database, should couts are being recruited and players are getting assessed properly. Come summer of 25, we are ready to move in on a big signing for the DM. So spending 25m to get a player who serves as a transitional player at worst but who has the tools to make the role his, makes sense.
Agreed, and all better examples than the one I used. If a coach has an identity in the modern game, he normally just needs good options capable of fitting in with that identity.Perfect example Jorginho who everyone thought was finished, becomes an important player in their team. Everyone scoffed at Havertz transfer and now he's important to the team. Not because they drastically improved as players, but because they suited the role that was needed in the team.
I get that these two in particular are greater quality than Berge, but it's about the principle behind it. Akanji is another example - wasn't anything special at Dortmund got let go for £15m - but he had the right physical and technical attributes and he fit the system - so he looked much better.
People seem to forget that the difference between majority of Top 5 league level players is not 20/30% but 2/3%. That 3% can be made up when they fit the role/system.
Go on then, tell us exactly why you don't rate Berge? You apparently seem to rate Zubimendi in his thread and judging from the stats there is not a lot in between them. So what makes Berge so terrible and Zubimendi so great? Assuming you have watched them both loads ofcourse.
This is key, it's risky to authorise big moves that will have implications over the next three or more seasons, financially and on the pitch, within one month of getting the job. Players like Berge won't have trouble attracting buyers if we ensure that he earns below 80k/week. He becomes another body to count on, he was highly rated a few years back and a challenge as big as this one could spur him.A very good point. I'm certain Ashworth will have his little birds, for lack of a better term, flown all across the globe. But this takes time, he joined on 1st July. I'm fine with waiting. He's the only underwhelming name in an intake of 4-5.
Palace played better football than we did last season so let's not go there.I do not know about Zubemendi, I have not watched him alot (except for the euros where I was really impressed by him), but I have seen very much of Berge and he is not very good, he is ok for a team between 8-15 in the table, his passing is okay, but most of it sideways or backwards, very slow and not uncommon to let his CB's exposed in defensive positions in counter attacks, his positioning is good while he tries to be available for his teammates when beating the press but his positioning in defensive setups is not that good which makes him not a good asset to intercept balls. Overall he is ok for teams like Everton and CP but not Manchester united.
Valencia.
I feel like I've been transported back to 2011.So you think he replaced Ronaldo well?
Aye he's also 26. If he doesn't work out we sell in 1-2 years.This is key, it's risky to authorise big moves that will have implications over the next three or more seasons, financially and on the pitch, within one month of getting the job. Players like Berge won't have trouble attracting buyers if we ensure that he earns below 80k/week. He becomes another body to count on, he was highly rated a few years back and a challenge as big as this one could spur him.
At worst he buys us time, it could be time to buy another one next season or to nurture one of our young DMs (Collyer or Gore) and it's not as big a risk as handing out Rabiot a 5 year, 200k/wk contract with maybe 10m signing on bonus. If he is overwhelmed by the task we can loan him out until he is sold but we won't be worse off. If we can negotiate a 20m plus add ons fee and wages of circa 70k he won't be difficult to shift. If he does decently Ashworth and Co look like rainmakers.
Palace played better football than we did last season so let's not go there.
I do not know about Zubemendi, I have not watched him alot (except for the euros where I was really impressed by him), but I have seen very much of Berge and he is not very good, he is ok for a team between 8-15 in the table, his passing is okay, but most of it sideways or backwards, very slow and not uncommon to let his CB's exposed in defensive positions in counter attacks, his positioning is good while he tries to be available for his teammates when beating the press but his positioning in defensive setups is not that good which makes him not a good asset to intercept balls. Overall he is ok for teams like Everton and CP but not Manchester united.
So given his prolific form in Germany and his international exploits with the Netherlands, Weghorst must’ve been a good pickup for us, going by your metrics…"Nuances" like rightly calling out the comparison as complete bollocks? Wijnaldum had captained PSV to an Eredivisie title, started in a World Cup semi-final and been named Dutch Footballer of the Year before he joined Newcastle. Yet apparently he wasn't any more an "established" player than Sander fecking Berge.
Some people have completely lost their heads in here.
So you actually have no point then. I have acknowledged below that I haven't watched both much but based on stats there isn't much in between them. But you apparently rate Zubimendi and don't rate Berge so can you explain how these stats would be misleading that they appear similar? Keep in mind Berge played for a much less dominant team which makes it a bit more harder for him. Also, you second point is rubbish. There could be lot of reasons for him to not be an option as would be the case for a lot of other players. Zubimendi isn't a kid either, he's 25. Why wasn't he on any clubs radar until now?First you go on and give me your detailed scouting report on Berge. Also, tell me how many times have you mentioned him as an option for us in the 4.5 seasons he has been in English football and how many times in the various midfield threads this summer window.
So anyone here actually watched him play for Real Sociedad last year or is everyone losing their shit because:
- He's Spanish
- Had a good 45mins playing for a dominant Spain team against an England team who where ultra defensive?
I haven't watched him play or Berge either but looking at the stats there doesn't appear to be an awful lot between them. So can anyone who watched Zubimendi play extensively explain how he is better and worth €60m and if any of the stats are misleading?
FBref Comparison(fbref actually suggested Berge as one of the players who is similar to Zubimendi so I didn't even have to go out of my way to compare them) : https://fbref.com/tiny/gPDre
Passing
Total Short Medium Long Expected Player Span Nation Pos Squad 90s Cmp Att Cmp% TotDist PrgDist Cmp Att Cmp% Cmp Att Cmp% Cmp Att Cmp% Ast xAG xA A-xAG KP 1/3 PPA CrsPA PrgP Martín Zubimendi 2023-24 es ESP MF Real Sociedad 29.5 1321 1542 85.7 22165 6269 607 677 89.7 607 677 89.7 86 126 68.3 1 1.5 2.0 -0.5 16 136 15 1 152 Sander Berge 2023-24 no NOR MF Burnley 33.4 1376 1562 88.1 24429 5168 568 637 89.2 658 711 92.5 125 154 81.2 2 2.4 1.6 -0.4 29 129 16 1 164
Pass Types
Pass Types Corner Kicks Outcomes Player Span Nation Pos Squad 90s Att Live Dead FK TB Sw Crs TI CK In Out Str Cmp Off Blocks Martín Zubimendi 2023-24 es ESP MF Real Sociedad 29.5 1542 1473 62 59 4 4 7 2 0 0 0 0 1321 7 13 Sander Berge 2023-24 no NOR MF Burnley 33.4 1562 1529 31 21 7 10 12 1 0 0 0 0 1376 2 14
Goal and Shot Creation
SCA SCA Types GCA GCA Types Player Span Nation Pos Squad 90s SCA SCA90 PassLive PassDead TO Sh Fld Def GCA GCA90 PassLive PassDead TO Sh Fld Def Martín Zubimendi 2023-24 es ESP MF Real Sociedad 29.5 55 1.87 47 0 3 4 0 1 4 0.14 4 0 0 0 0 0 Sander Berge 2023-24 no NOR MF Burnley 33.4 67 2.01 63 0 3 0 1 0 8 0.24 7 0 1 0 0 0
Defensive Actions
Tackles Challenges Blocks Player Span Nation Pos Squad 90s Tkl TklW Def 3rd Mid 3rd Att 3rd Tkl Att Tkl% Lost Blocks Sh Pass Int Tkl+Int Clr Err Martín Zubimendi 2023-24 es ESP MF Real Sociedad 29.5 49 27 18 29 2 23 42 54.8 19 33 9 24 37 86 54 0 Sander Berge 2023-24 no NOR MF Burnley 33.4 76 46 35 36 5 34 58 58.6 24 49 20 29 23 99 60 2
Possession
Touches Take-Ons Carries Receiving Player Span Nation Pos Squad 90s Touches Def Pen Def 3rd Mid 3rd Att 3rd Att Pen Live Att Succ Succ% Tkld Tkld% Carries TotDist PrgDist PrgC 1/3 CPA Mis Dis Rec PrgR Martín Zubimendi 2023-24 es ESP MF Real Sociedad 29.5 1793 91 397 1144 267 32 1793 18 12 66.7 5 27.8 942 5305 2671 34 41 5 26 16 1185 27 Sander Berge 2023-24 no NOR MF Burnley 33.4 1887 133 494 997 414 41 1887 41 20 48.8 16 39.0 1076 6419 3091 64 57 9 23 23 1233 29
He's a decent passer too, but yeah that is a frightening comparison if anyone actually thinks they are alike and vastly underestimates what Rodri does. Not only has he filled the hard working and exceptional positioning role left by Fernandinho to keep City's midfield and defence from falling apart, but now he's getting forward and scoring goals too - 8 goals and 9 assists last season
I'm for signing Berger but this is fecking brilliantNo matter who we're linked with people will eventually twist themselves in knots to pretend that it's actually a great idea. The cope never ends. (I'm also on the Berge cope train due to my fetish for tall, athletic players)
We could be linked with Jonjo Shelvey and it would play out like:
Monday: This isn't happening
Tuesday: Can't believe we're actually interested in him. He's shit and he's been injured for 3 years.
Wednesday: I guess he was actually good for Newcastle at times... but that was nearly a decade ago
Thursday: He does still have a great switch of play on him. Nice shiny head too
Friday: Here's a YouTube video from his loan at Rizespor: You Won't Believe How Good Jonjo Shelvey Is In 2024 - Amazing Skills, Goals, Passes & Tackles | Technical Elegance | HD
Saturday: This scatter chart shows Jonjo Shelvey is actually still elite. Look at all the green on FBRef. Moneyball?
Sunday: If we don't sign Jonjo Shelvey we're absolutely fecked
Are you talking about the instances where he receives under pressure from his keeper and he passes it backwards or sideways? Because that's what his job is in those situations. He's good at passing forward when the opportunity presents itself, as well as carrying the ball forward. You might be wrongly expecting things from him that he isn't supposed to do.
Well I've seen him play for both Burnley and Sheff Utd and I think he's a good player. Was easily the best player in both teams. Let's not pretend that most of the people against the signing have seen him play. They see he played for 2 relegated teams and maybe watched Goldbridge's rant and assume he must be crap.Just ignoring the opinion of Burnley fans and Norweigans? Who are not opposition fans, they're the fans of the teams he plays for. And I'm yet to see a single one who rates him as a top four Prem calibre player.
The only people who seem to rate him in this thread have never seen him play beyond youtube and twitter montages.
He actually has a decent passing completion % while attempting decent number of passes. And that's while playing for Burnley. Playing with good players around him should improve those numbers one would hope. I don't mind his sideways passes if it helps us retain possession a bit more while letting the attackers do their work. My point is he appears to be better at the midfield things that help a team retain possession than the likes of McT and Casemiro. So, in that case I don't mind him here as a squad player.I do not know about Zubemendi, I have not watched him alot (except for the euros where I was really impressed by him), but I have seen very much of Berge and he is not very good, he is ok for a team between 8-15 in the table, his passing is okay, but most of it sideways or backwards, very slow and not uncommon to let his CB's exposed in defensive positions in counter attacks, his positioning is good while he tries to be available for his teammates when beating the press but his positioning in defensive setups is not that good which makes him not a good asset to intercept balls. Overall he is ok for teams like Everton and CP but not Manchester united.
Not only that situation, but also where he should pass forward, unfortunately I do not have a very accurate stat to compare because it is also dependable on the other players of the team to give passing options, but roughly he averages only 10 passes per 90 minutes forward, that is a very small number, compared to Rice 16 per 90 min and compared to Casemiro 24 per 90 minutes.