The more pertinent question is what club will take a punt on a extremely gifted ex footballing legend but raw and inexperienced aspiring manager 
Ryan Giggs | United confirm he's left
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Not as in shit perse, just shit if we're using united standard.
The point still stands though, it's not the job that undermines their progress. It's their managerial ceiling that's stopped the rise to top level
What I've said was completed against what you said. Most managers worked they way up. SAF, Simeone, Mourinho, Clough they all had done that. Its not just for the clubs benefit who wouldn't want to leave their club to a rookie but also to the manager himself. Do you think its difficult for someone like Giggs to implement his 'philosophy' at a Championship level Club (ie were football is more physical, simpler and under less pressure)? Its going to get worse when instead of hardworking lads who see Giggs as a hero who made it with..THE GREAT MANCHESTER UNITED. He's got sulking millionaire teenagers who are with the club simply because their agents told them to sign and the media is at his neck.
He doesn't have to go to the championship, he was linked with the Swansea job last year and turned it down. He will get offers for good footballing sides because of his profile, he's Ryan Giggs not Bruce. If he can't get players from Swansea or Sunderland to do well and respect him, how is he going to work with the highest paid players around?
Yes most managers do work their way up and most will peak at Championship level because of this. The gulf in class/money/standards between Championship and Premier league means that the impressive promotion is followed by a season of negative football (because you defend for your life) and relegation. Unfortunately people only remember the relegation (including the owners who sack the manager) and your reputation is tarnished. Bruce has won 4 promotions so we should be talking about his ability to win games over the course of a season, motivate players and see out a full season against tough competition. But no he's a sh*te boring manager and Hull is his level.
As for hardworking lads who see Giggs as a hero, check out Keane's second book. The players don't give a sh*t about who their manager is or what he has done. They're there for a pay cheque just as much as the sulking millionaire teenagers. Some might respect him and play for him but equally players will be looking to get a better payday elsewhere.
Again I reiterate, I am not saying Giggs should ever be manager at United but just don't expect that time in the Championship is likely to have him better prepared for the job; he will more than likely fail (as most managers do) and we wont touch him with a barge poll. He could be worth a shot for a mid table team in flux, do well and then prove himself to be worth a punt.
I don't think we're disagreeing then. I am stating that a championship club is too unpredictable a task and that we will know more if Giggs is united material if he had a team like Southampton to work with.
Ferguson was in charge of many middling sides. St Mirren - he got promoted with a side that had 8
players and no goalkeeper on their books!
Aberdeen he broke Celtic and Rangers and bested Real Madrid in the cup winners cup final.
He was a legendary manager that had ultra success EVERYWHERE he went.
If he went to any side in any league in England, the prime Alex Ferguson would win their league within 2 years. He wouldn't accept this "steadily building foundations" using journeymen.
Ryan Giggs, Steve Bruce, Roy Keane, guys like this - they have to prove they can do similar before being given the reins.
The ironic thing is that the only former player turned manager of ours who has left and won anything is Ole Solskjaer - what he did at Molde was extremely impressive.
Jose Mourinho is the closest thing in world football to Alex Ferguson at his prime which is why he's rightly been given the job.
I love Roy but he has a somehow pessimistic view of life. Unfortunately I wont be surprised if one day he either kills someone or is found hanged in his own house.
Football get simpler the lower it gets. Less media attention, less money involved and less expectations. I don't know what your line is but if Ramsey had to barge in at a local fish and chip restaurant saying he will manage them then the people will be more impressed then if he had to do the same with a high end 3 star michelin star restaurant
The gulf in handicap isnt only money
If giggs went to a championship team all hr has to do was deploy the united standard and it'll already awed the team. It's like a normal soldier watching an ex sas trainer. Every tips and tricks looks like a revelation. But pit him against mourinho, pep, etc they'll have more tricks up their sleeve. But that level is where you need to be, the elite league
If giggs went to a championship team all hr has to do was deploy the united standard and it'll already awed the team. It's like a normal soldier watching an ex sas trainer. Every tips and tricks looks like a revelation. But pit him against mourinho, pep, etc they'll have more tricks up their sleeve. But that level is where you need to be, the elite league
People keep missing the point that working at a championship club isn't supposed to make him ready for United. It's supposed to make him ready for the next step on the journey to being good enough to United, if he has it in him. If he does the job Eddie Howe has done, and being Ryan Giggs, he'd get a bigger club than Bournemouth, why can't he be picked up by a Stoke, or a West Brom? That could lead to an Everton, which could lead to Manchester United. That's just an example of a possible route. If he does really well at one or two clubs instead of 3/4, and our team is in a good place, we might go for him early.
Sir Alex didn't start at United or even Aberdeen. Mourinho, while he did begin with a brief 9 game spell at Benfica did have to manage Uniao de Leiria before Porto.
This is SAF showing early promise at St Mirren (first job)
Mourino at that other club
Sir Alex didn't start at United or even Aberdeen. Mourinho, while he did begin with a brief 9 game spell at Benfica did have to manage Uniao de Leiria before Porto.
This is SAF showing early promise at St Mirren (first job)
Mourino at that other club
that's why most managers start at low clubs and then grow
I don't think he will be getting managerial offers anytime soon. Not after his stint in Valencia.
Why would you want Phelan? the guy was literally useless and wore unfashionable shorts.
Ramsey, as the surprise head of the local chipper, says to his staff
So the staff are impressed and give it their best shot to emulate what the highest paid professionals do. But they fail miserably and get trounced by the local chipper that only does fish, chips and mushy peas but does it well. Ramsey gets fired because as much pedigree as he has he has just spent a sh*tload of money trying to get a chipper working like a restaurant, ended up performing worse than before and the owner is not happy.
Does this mean Ramsey is a bad head chef? No he's just not geared towards this level. Even the best of intentions can only go as far as the limits of those carrying out the orders.
Similarly Its like saying Ramsey could only be a Michelin star chef if he first proves himself at the local chip shop. They are the same industry but so far apart in terms of professionalism and money that its just not an accurate barometer.
That'll be the Phelan who just won promotion to the Prem with Bruce's Hull City? Former assistant to one of the greatest managers ever?
Yay! Shorts!
Phelan has been assistant at Hull, Norwich, Blackpool and Stockport. At United he was assistant to the Manchester United reserves and went up the ranks until he replaced Carlos Queroz as SAF's no 2. He certainly got more experience then Gaz and would allow Mou better insight on how the setup at United pre mess used to work
He doesn't need to start from the local chip shop but it certainly helps alot to start from somewhere with minimum pressure and expectations. He can test his ideas without having the critics breathing at his neck. Also note that Ramsey started as a commis chef at Wroston House Hotel (only recently they were given 3 silver stars) and with a mere 60 seat dining room. Its not as if he was handled a Michelin star restaurant and told to manage it from day 1.
If Giggs can't adapt his philosophy to the club's expectations and finances then he's already flawed as manager. There's not many clubs capable of financially back him year in year out like United would do and there's absolutely no guarantee that a big spender club will remain so throughout his career there (ex Inter, Milan and many other clubs)
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Bruce is evaluating his future
Think he would take the hull job.
Think he would take the hull job.
Currently 1/3 to be the next Bolton Manager, any reason why?
I thought he was back from his hols already, just read somewhere he comes back tomorrow?
This has to be my favourite caf myth of all time.
Giggs already has half the battle won. Most new coaches don't have the sort of connections to the footballing world that give them that opportunity to manage a squad on the level of the Premier League. We just don't know whether he has the same passion for managing that Mourinho or Guardiola has which raises the question about his disposition for the job.
Tentatively looking forward to "What does Rui Faria actually do?" if results aren't too good next year.
He goes apeshit crazy on the sidelines from time to time. I thought this was already established?
@devilish @verminater I don't expect Jose to make big changes to his backroom staff. He might recruit older players but their responsibilities would be much limited compared to the core members of his usual staff.
What connection? His cronies?
Do you honestly think people in football world would prefer to deal with giggs rather than pep/mou?
Yeah, probably rooney and carrick would prefer dealing with him. He's their buddies after all
I think he's referring to the comparison between Giggs and other first time managers.
I agree that failure at a small club could destroy his reputation, keano and ole are prime examples of that, and i also know that failure isn't always the manager's fault, but it just happens that life isn't fair. Having said that, if giggs is really good, eventually he'll succeed at some level and end up a good premier league manager, which is really a great achievement, after all there's only a small number of top tier clubs in europe, chances are that 99% of people going into management now aren't gonna make it anywhere near that top tier.
I think it's been proven beyond any doubt that there's no relation between being a top player and being a good manager, giggs needs to prove himself all over again, it's that simple and i really wish him the best of luck.
I think it's been proven beyond any doubt that there's no relation between being a top player and being a good manager, giggs needs to prove himself all over again, it's that simple and i really wish him the best of luck.
Sky Bet: Ryan Giggs has been cut to 1/4 to be the manager of Bolton on the first day of the 2016/17 season.
Malcolm Allison, Peter Taylor, Don Howe, Bob Paisley?
Tito Villanova, Carlos Quieroz and maybe Rui Faria?
Neither Pep or Fergie struggled without Tito and Queiroz, so they were hardly crucial. Peter Taylor is probably the best example of a crucial assistant, since Clough never really hit the same heights without Taylor as he did with him.
Our defence got worse without Queiroz
I never understood this former player hype in the backroom staff either especially in today's age were managers come, they do great changes into the system (including sacking coaches) and then they leave. I mean lets say Mou hired Rio. What exactly does he know about United now? Most of the people he worked with are gone. What's the point of having him around? What coaching experience does he have to know that this coaching technique is better then that coaching technique?
What a new manager needs is someone whose been a coach for a long time and can therefore appreciate the improvement the previous manager had brought in while highlighting any weaknesses in the system that he may have caused. Mou seem to think it the same way when he promoted Giuseppe Baresi. He was an experienced coach at Inter who went up the Inter coaching ranks, he had outlived many managers and he knew the club inside out.
If I was Mou I would go for either Joyce or Butt (the latter as second option). They know the structure of the club inside out and how it had evolved or regressed throughout the past few years. Joyce would be able to give Mou a detailed report of all promising youths and can easily tell him who is ready to be blooded or not.
Regarding ex players, the only roles I can see for them is
a- at low end (ex Under 8s) were a former player would be able to inspire kids to join and do the extra mile and may convince parents to have their kids sign with that club. Dont take me wrong if they are successful in what they do then they should get promoted to higher end jobs just like anybody else would do.
b- as club ambassadors
c- as a director (Charlton style) to make sure there is always a representative of our values in every decision taken by the club (ex Zanetti at Inter or Nedved at Juventus).
Has he left yet?
Yeah. Let's face it, most managers had to work their way up to get noticed by the big clubs to manage at the biggest stage. Mourinho got his break translating for Robson and even after coaching at Barcelona, he had to start his managing career at Uniao de Leira. Sir Alex proved himself in the SPL, winning an unprecedented number of trophies with Aberdeen. Of course there are exceptions like Pep (who is by all accounts a brilliant manager), but really if you're coaching at Barcelona the style of play, caliber of players, and footballing culture are there to help guide you to managerial success.
Guess he really does want to be the Warden of the North.
After he left in 2003? Well yes, but the whole team ended up in transition after the league title in 2003. You could also say McClaren was crucial, since we won the league three times in a row (and the treble) with him as assistant, and when he left in 2001, we only won the league once in the next five seasons.
They didn't struggle as they were great managers but things were never as good after parting of the ways.
As good? I know the 2008 team is very glorified, but it was the '99 team that won the treble, without Queiroz. About Pep I think it's a cheap shot to say things wasn't as good for him without Tito, he missed Messi more at Bayern than Tito.
Ah. My bad
99 team while that achievement can't be taken away had a charmed life to win it. There's been better United side's than that one IMO.
Who wouldn't miss Messi hugely but that's not the point under discussion?
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