RvP Transfer | Signed with Fenerbahce | See thread in the footy forum

[Pogue Mahone]

You're missing his point: while a team that's functional and disciplined might well deliver continued success, effectively becoming Chelsea is a far cry from United's tradition of flair and imagination. Success is great, of course, but it isn't the reason why many of us began to supprt United.

Well that's an issue you have with the manager, yet you seem to be blaming the player(s) who are delivering what he wants on the pitch?

 

[Mister Ed]

You're missing his point: while a team that's functional and disciplined might well deliver continued success, effectively becoming Chelsea is a far cry from United's tradition of flair and imagination. Success is great, of course, but it isn't the reason why many of us began to supprt United.

Maybay you didn't but the vast part of the United fanbase did. The club has become succesfull both sportively and commercially because SAF was able to win trophies on a consistent basis and not because of beckham's hair or cantona's swagger. None of that has any importance if the team isn't functioning properly and competiting for trophies on the highest level. It is off inferior importance.

 

[SteveJ]

Like the rest of us, I just don't know how it will turn out, chief. Sorry for derailing the thread a bit.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Maybay you didn't but the vast part of the United fanbase did. The club has become succesfull both sportively and commercially because SAF was able to win trophies on a consistent basis and not because of beckham's hair or cantona's swagger. None of that has any importance if the team isn't functioning properly and competiting for trophies on the highest level. It is off inferior importance.

Utter crap with all due respect. If that is the case then why throughout the 70s and 80s when we couldnt win more than the occasional FA Cup did we still have the highest attendances in the country. People are attracted to Utd because of our history, image, style of play and many many factors, a certain type of supporter is attracted because of trophies, granted, but to claim its the vast majority is horse shit.

 

[SteveJ]

Maybay you didn't but the vast part of the United fanbase did. The club has become succesfull both sportively and commercially because SAF was able to win trophies on a consistent basis and not because of beckham's hair or cantona's swagger. None of that has any importance if the team isn't functioning properly and competiting for trophies on the highest level. It is off inferior importance.

Manchester United were famous and celebrated for years before SAF's success. A great part of the club's fame is due to the Romance of the club and its players.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Utter crap with all due respect. If that is the case then why throughout the 70s and 80s when we couldnt win more than the occasional FA Cup did we still have the highest attendances in the country. People are attracted to Utd because of our history, image, style of play and many many factors, a certain type of supporter is attracted because of trophies, granted, but to claim its the vast majority is horse shit.

To be fair, I reckon the vast majority of our current fan-base was attracted by our success. United have a global fan-base now and you can be absolutely certain that almost all of them are following the club as the result of the success achieved under Fergie.

I do agree with you about our traditions of exciting attacking football also being a draw but you only need to look at the massive increase in the global appeal of Chelsea and City in recent years to see that winning trophies is really the most important factor in winning new fans.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

To be fair, I reckon the vast majority of our current fan-base was attracted by our success. United have a global fan-base now and you can be absolutely certain that almost all of them are following the club as the result of the success achieved under Fergie.

I do agree with you about our traditions of exciting attacking football also being a draw but you only need to look at the massive increase in the global appeal of Chelsea and City in recent years to see that winning trophies is really the most important factor in winning new fans.

A certain type of fan maybe, I have my doubts about the loyalty of "supporters" like that though, if we were to go into a Liverpool type decline I wonder how many of them would stick with the club?

 

[Mister Ed]

Utter crap with all due respect. If that is the case then why throughout the 70s and 80s when we couldnt win more than the occasional FA Cup did we still have the highest attendances in the country. People are attracted to Utd because of our history, image, style of play and many many factors, a certain type of supporter is attracted because of trophies, granted, but to claim its the vast majority is horse shit.

If you think Uniteds success and current commercial status comes from the local support in england...

I'am not talking about the thousands of english supporters who have been supporting United because their grand dad did and told them about the old days. I'am talking about the millions of supporters who follow United on the tele and the social media. You know the ones we are going for on tour to pay a visit and that addidas and chevrolet want to pay us billions for because we are the worlds most watched billboard.

Those fans support us because we have had an era of success which is down to Fergie and a smart team of business people that commercialised it. We could have had a team full of beckhams and cantonas and if they didn't win trophies those people couldn't have cared less for United.

There is other teams who have had real mavericks of the english football playing for them but they weren't good teams that won stuff year in year out for decades. They don't have 600million fans worldwide following them and they couldn't get a sponsorship deal chevy or addidas in their wildest dreams and as a consequence they also can't pay millions in transfer fees and wages to bring top class players in.

 

[Mister Ed]

A certain type of fan maybe, I have my doubts about the loyalty of "supporters" like that though, if we were to go into a Liverpool type decline I wonder how many of them would stick with the club?

The vast majority

And once they start supporting you alot of them turn out to be quite loyal but if you aren't succesfull it is difficult if not impossible to keep attaining new fans around the globe.

If you are not a local lad you don't tend to start supporting a team that isn't succesfull, you just don't. And if you think United could have any of what it has now with just its local support you are sorely mistaken.

 

[SteveW]

I can't fault RVP's attitude. He's a class act for me, and always speaks intelligently. And @Pogue Mahone you are indeed right about his decline and I agree with selling him but the it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that a player like him who is reliant mainly in technical ability and finishing can have a few very good years still in him, like Terry has just had. Which is why we need to replace him well.

He could have tried a bit harder last season. He didn't look arsed for the most part.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

The vast majority

And once they start supporting you alot of them turn out to be quite loyal but if you aren't succesfull it is difficult if not impossible to keep attaining new fans around the globe.

If you are not a local lad you don't tend to start supporting a team that isn't succesfull, you just don't. And if you think United could have any of what it has now with just its local support you are sorely mistaken.

I agree with what your saying, with the exception of the loyalty thing, a few more seasons like the last two should prove that one way or the other, and I may well be wrong, maybe those supporters will stick with us, but Im doubtful, and wouldnt personally class them as supporters, customers of the brand maybe, but not supporters.

 

[Shark]

I think some are confusing the look of a player struggling for fitness from injury after injury, with 'not being arsed'. Yeah, he's been disappointing since the title win, but he started Moyes' first season on fire and it looked like he was going to repeat something special, but got injured. I don't think he's a player that's ever lacked hunger and seems like a perfectionist going by his interviews.

 

[Mister Ed]

I agree with what your saying, with the exception of the loyalty thing, a few more seasons like the last two should prove that one way or the other, and I may well be wrong, maybe those supporters will stick with us, but Im doubtful, and wouldnt personally class them as supporters, customers of the brand maybe, but not supporters.

All supporters are customers of the brand.

Some longer than others
Some more loyally than others
Some local others global
All for their own reasons

But customers nonetheless and if they are displeased with their relationship they will leave. You as fan have your own motives to support United and if those motives in time would vaporise your support would vaporsie just the same.

The only thing I'am saying is to attract new customers as a club you need the success and you get that as a team not as individuals (the rockstar romances).

I don't agree people that start supporting for the success are per definition not going to be loyal. Perhaps it will play a part for some but there are just people that start supporting and stick with the club also in bad times. Liverpool still have alot of followers not all of them local scouse but it is definitley alot harder for them to attract new support.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

He could have tried a bit harder last season. He didn't look arsed for the most part.

I don't agree. It's easy to say that about someone who has lost his mojo.

 

[SteveW]

I don't agree. It's easy to say that about someone who has lost his mojo.

Maybe. But if you compare him to Falcao, another player who's lost his mojo it seemed pretty obvious which one was trying harder. Pretty sure RVP only managed about 13 touches in one game. To me that suggests a lack of effort.

 

[SteveW]

All supporters are customers of the brand.

Some longer than others
Some more loyally than others
Some local others global
All for their own reasons

But customers nonetheless and if they are displeased with their relationship they will leave. You as fan have your own motives to support United and if those motives in time would vaporise your support would vaporsie just the same.

The only thing I'am saying is to attract new customers as a club you need the success and you get that as a team not as individuals (the rockstar romances).

I don't agree people that start supporting for the success are per definition not going to be loyal. Perhaps it will play a part for some but there are just people that start supporting and stick with the club also in bad times. Liverpool still have alot of followers not all of them local scouse but it is definitley alot harder for them to attract new support.

I don't get this.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Maybe. But if you compare him to Falcao, another player who's lost his mojo it seemed pretty obvious which one was trying harder. Pretty sure RVP only managed about 13 touches in one game. To me that suggests a lack of effort.

Isn't that the LVG way? Pretty sure I read Rooney claim he wanted him to be like Olic who scored a goal or two in 5 touches in a game.

 

[SteveW]

Isn't that the LVG way? Pretty sure I read Rooney claim he wanted him to be like Olic who scored a goal or two in 5 touches in a game.

Pretty sure LVG took him off that day and decribed his performance and lack of touches as very poor in his next presser

 

[Ekeke]

Maybe. But if you compare him to Falcao, another player who's lost his mojo it seemed pretty obvious which one was trying harder. Pretty sure RVP only managed about 13 touches in one game. To me that suggests a lack of effort.

Weird. Didnt Rooney have about 13 touches in one game and Gary Neville suggested it would have been the game LVG would have been most pleased with from him. Its not about how many times he touches the ball, its about occupying the defenders and moving them around so the likes of Fellaini and Ander could get into good positions from deep

 

[SteveW]

Weird. Didnt Rooney have about 13 touches in one game and Gary Neville suggested it would have been the game LVG would have been most pleased with from him. Its not about how many times he touches the ball, its about occupying the defenders and moving them around so the likes of Fellaini and Ander could get into good positions from deep

As I said in my last post LVG came out and said his performance was terrible. Don't think RVP occupied anyone that day. Also I believe it was earlier in the season when our tactical set up was different.

 

[Mister Ed]

I don't get this.

We are all customers of the brand Manchester United and we all have a relationship with the club but it really isn't the club it is the brand or image or the things it stand for or atleast what people perceive or want that it stands for.

You may support because United is the club your mates support. If suddenly your mates would stop supporting and would all go to another team or even another sport you may end up following them because United stopped being the football club you shared with your mates.

You may support because you liked United as a local Manchester club as you yourself are a local manchester lad. The club suddenly doesn't care about its local routs anymore you may stop carring about the club aswell.

You may like United because of a player/ a style of playing/ its succesfull history/ whatever the reasons you have for supporting it. If those reasons dissappear your support or love may disappear. The reasons why you support may change over time however. I think alot of people support because it has become part of their life for years now and that just doesn't change like that anymore. It is also the reason why I say I don't think alot of fans are as fickle as many people claim they are. Once you have gained a fan as a club for whatever reason and have made him a customer for your brand it usually is a long term relationship. (obviously there are always the exceptions)

 

[SteveW]

Not sure I agree. Maybe its just a personal thing but I don't see how I could stop supporting United. It feels like something I was born with and is just part of who I am. In the same way I'll always be Irish I'll always support United. Whether I always enjoy football or watching United they will still be my team. I would think it's the same for a lot of supporters. It's not necessarily conditional.

 

[acnumber9]

He hasn't though.

What's really funny is people who can't see this.

He hasn't declined or not as much as Van Persie? Because at least one of those claims would be laughable.

 

[Dans]

Not sure I agree. Maybe its just a personal thing but I don't see how I could stop supporting United. It feels like something I was born with and is just part of who I am. In the same way I'll always be Irish I'll always support United. Whether I always enjoy football or watching United they will still be my team. I would think it's the same for a lot of supporters. It's not necessarily conditional.

That's possibly the difference between fans who have more of a tangible connection with the club - i.e. someone who's grown up in or spent a lot of time during their youth in England, or who are English but live abroad and have that "real" link to the country or the city, versus the stereotypical (rightly or wrongly, but for arguments sake let me say that) foreign fan who has grown to follow and perhaps love United as a result of exposure globally thanks to success brought in large part by Ferguson. That said, I am not that convinced that anyone has ever presented any real evidence that even a foreign fan who follows United for 5 years is likely to suddenly jump ship to Chelsea if we stop winning titles. At best I should imagine they spend a little less money on United related merchandise.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He hasn't declined or not as much as Van Persie? Because at least one of those claims would be laughable.

He's just finished one of his least prolific seasons, although how much of that decline was down to being repeatedly played out of position remains to be seen. He blatantly hasn't followed the same trajectory as Van Persie, though. For example his goals/90 actually improved from 2012/13 to 2013/14 He was one of the few players who performed well under Moyes and one of our better performers this season (which is, admittedly, faint praise)

Anyway, the elephant in the room here is the fact that Van Gaal has given up on RvP and clearly has Rooney very much in his future plans. There's a lot of unspoken accusations of opinions in this thread being clouded by bias. Van Gaal, if anything, would be biased in favour of his countryman. The fact his actions have been completely the opposite speaks volumes.

 

[Ekeke]

As I said in my last post LVG came out and said his performance was terrible. Don't think RVP occupied anyone that day. Also I believe it was earlier in the season when our tactical set up was different.

You're missing the point. He may have been terrible, but it wasnt evidenced by him having few touches. Thats how we use our striker

If he's not being a threat and not taking a good amount of the chances that come to him, then thats the problem. Not touching the ball 13 times

 

[SteveJ]

Van Gaal, if anything, would be biased in favour of his countryman. The fact his actions have been completely the opposite speaks volumes.

Yeah, that's the final word really. Let's hope that Louis' faith in Wayne is justified.

 

[SteveW]

You're missing the point. He may have been terrible, but it wasnt evidenced by him having few touches. Thats how we use our striker

If he's not being a threat and not taking a good amount of the chances that come to him, then thats the problem. Not touching the ball 13 times

LVG specifically referred to his lack of touches in his criticism of his performance. We were playing 2 up top at the time. In that system the strikers needed to get on the ball and bring others into play.

It wasn't the system we finished the season with where a big part of the strikers job was to occupy the CBs to make space for Herrera and Fellaini.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah, that's the final word really. Let's hope that Louis' faith in Wayne is justified.

I think last season Van Gaal appreciated Rooney most for his versatility. If we (please God) finally land these great CMs we're being linked with then that'll be an end to Rooney in midfield experiment and no more excuses about his performances up front. Which is a good thing IMO.

 

[acnumber9]

He's just finished one of his least prolific seasons, although how much of that decline was down to being repeatedly played out of position remains to be seen. He blatantly hasn't followed the same trajectory as Van Persie, though. For example his goals/90 actually improved from 2012/13 to 2013/14 He was one of the few players who performed well under Moyes and one of our better performers this season (which is, admittedly, faint praise)

Anyway, the elephant in the room here is the fact that Van Gaal has given up on RvP and clearly has Rooney very much in his future plans. There's a lot of unspoken accusations of opinions in this thread being clouded by bias. Van Gaal, if anything, would be biased in favour of his countryman. The fact his actions have been completely the opposite speaks volumes.

It's been about 3 years since Rooney has played to his highest standard. Having a better scoring record in 13/14 than the year before only shows he was shit the year before. Van Persie's was probably better than Rooney had done the year before too. All you're proving is Van Persie was coming from a better position rather than comparing what the two are currently capable of. Neither have played to the standard required but for some reason you're more than happy with Rooney even though it's obvious he's declined from his peak.

As far as his sale for I'm fairly indifferent towards it as if the manager doesn't want him then he wasn't going to play much anyway. Plus Rooney doesn't have the same injury concerns. Let's not pretend that Rooney is the player he used to be though.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

I think last season Van Gaal appreciated Rooney most for his versatility. If we (please God) finally land these great CMs we're being linked with then that'll be an end to Rooney in midfield experiment and no more excuses about his performances up front. Which is a good thing IMO.

Please god let it be!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's been about 3 years since Rooney has played to his highest standard. Having a better scoring record in 13/14 than the year before only shows he was shit the year before. Van Persie's was probably better than Rooney had done the year before too. All you're proving is Van Persie was coming from a better position rather than comparing what the two are currently capable of. Neither have played to the standard required but for some reason you're more than happy with Rooney even though it's obvious he's declined from his peak.

As far as his sale for I'm fairly indifferent towards it as if the manager doesn't want him then he wasn't going to play much anyway. Plus Rooney doesn't have the same injury concerns. Let's not pretend that Rooney is the player he used to be though.

In 2012/13 RvP had great luck with injuries and featured in all 38 league games as part of a title-winning team, starting every game in his preferred position. As strikers go, that's as good a platform as you'll get to show what you're capable of. With a bit of luck the same will be true for Rooney in the season ahead, if so then he will need to replicate or better what Van Persie achieved in his first season at United. He's shown himself capable of doing that before and there's no reason to suspect someone of his age has had some kind of radical physical decline over the last 4 or 5 years. If he doesn't then, like I said, there's no more excuses.

 

[Wumminator]

The moment I knew RVP had lost something was when we had that 2-2 draw wth Fulham. I was there for that game and after being 1-0 down for most of the game we'd turned it around to 2-1.

Mata had broke and was sprinting up the pitch. We needed a win. Mata had RVP ahead of him, he looked for the pass but instead of busting a gut RVP suddenly stopped and started messing with his socks. Think his shin pad must have been rubbing.

Mata got tackled and we drew 2-2 in the last minute. RVP didn't even look gutted.

Those saying he didn't try at times are 100% right in my view. I'm not one to read into body language but it was clear he wasn't giving his all.

 

[acnumber9]

In 2012/13 RvP had great luck with injuries and featured in all 38 league games as part of a title-winning team, starting every game in his preferred position. As strikers go, that's as good a platform as you'll get to show what you're capable of. With a bit of luck the same will be true for Rooney in the season ahead, if so then he will need to replicate or better what Van Persie achieved in his first season at United. He's shown himself capable of doing that before and there's no reason to suspect someone of his age has had some kind of radical physical decline over the last 4 or 5 years. If he doesn't then, like I said, there's no more excuses.

There is a reason to suspect that and it would be from watching him play.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There is a reason to suspect that and it would be from watching him play.

I've seen no physical decline. Just a struggle for form due to injuries and repeated positional changes. We'd really need to see metrics on avge speed and high intensity runs and the like to know whether my own take on things is right or not. Looking at the way Van Gaal has used him vs RvP I suspect those metrics look decent enough.

 

[acnumber9]

I've seen no physical decline. Just a struggle for form due to injuries and repeated positional changes. We'd really need to see metrics on avge speed and high intensity runs and the like to know whether my own take on things is right or not. Looking at the way Van Gaal has used him vs RvP I suspect those metrics look decent enough.

There's been a decline in performances. That's clear to the eye. There can be reasons for that other than physical. The odd lung busting run won't change that.

 

[Devil may care]

Hopefully these new stories of interest from elsewhere are bullshit and his move to Fenerbahce will be completed on Monday.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

We are all customers of the brand Manchester United and we all have a relationship with the club but it really isn't the club it is the brand or image or the things it stand for or atleast what people perceive or want that it stands for.

You may support because United is the club your mates support. If suddenly your mates would stop supporting and would all go to another team or even another sport you may end up following them because United stopped being the football club you shared with your mates.

You may support because you liked United as a local Manchester club as you yourself are a local manchester lad. The club suddenly doesn't care about its local routs anymore you may stop carring about the club aswell.

You may like United because of a player/ a style of playing/ its succesfull history/ whatever the reasons you have for supporting it. If those reasons dissappear your support or love may disappear. The reasons why you support may change over time however. I think alot of people support because it has become part of their life for years now and that just doesn't change like that anymore. It is also the reason why I say I don't think alot of fans are as fickle as many people claim they are. Once you have gained a fan as a club for whatever reason and have made him a customer for your brand it usually is a long term relationship. (obviously there are always the exceptions)

I'm sorry but this post shows a distinct lack of understanding of football fans in England.

You might be pissed off with how your team play but you don't change your support…regardless of what your mates do or don't do…whether you have good or bad players…or whether or not your team is successful or unsuccessful.

That's why third and fourth tier league clubs in England get thousands of fans watching them every game…and some of those teams have won nothing in their history.

Finally...I am certainly not a customer of any brand.

 

[Mister Ed]

I'm sorry but this post shows a distinct lack of understanding of football fans in England.

You might be pissed off with how your team play but you don't change your support…regardless of what your mates do or don't do…whether you have good or bad players…or whether or not your team is successful or unsuccessful.

That's why third and fourth tier league clubs in England get thousands of fans watching them every game…and some of those teams have won nothing in their history.

Finally...I am certainly not a customer of any brand.

Feck sake you don't get a thing of what I'am talking about

Every fan has his reasons for supporting a club and thus every fan has a relationship to the club that makes you a customer to that clubs branding wheter you care to admit it or not because if you weren't you wouldn't go watch every single match. I never said those reasons have to be winning trophies, I just said if you want to attract alot of people and thousands is not alot, millions is alot than you must be succesfull else you'll never attract alot.

If you think being a fan of a footballclub is a relationship so distinctly different as being a fan something else (doesn't even matter what) than you are the one lacking understanding. As a fan you are always buying into something, wheter it is the mouth to mouth story telling of your great grand daddy that supported the club since its founding or it being a stupid commercial that drew your attention. Obviously the reasons will be different and obviously the degree of fanatisime will be different but the concept is just the same. Wheter you are a fanatic for iphones or a football club it isn't distinctly different as a concept.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

Feck sake you don't get a thing of what I'am talking about

Every fan has his reasons for supporting a club and thus every fan has a relationship to the club that makes you a customer to that clubs branding wheter you care to admit it or not because if you weren't you wouldn't go watch every single match. I never said those reasons have to be winning trophies, I just said if you want to attract alot of people and thousands is not alot, millions is alot than you must be succesfull else you'll never attract alot.

If you think being a fan of a footballclub is a relationship so distinctly different as being a fan something else (doesn't even matter what) than you are the one lacking understanding. As a fan you are always buying into something, wheter it is the mouth to mouth story telling of your great grand daddy that supported the club since its founding or it being a stupid commercial that drew your attention. Obviously the reasons will be different and obviously the degree of fanatisime will be different but the concept is just the same. Wheter you are a fanatic for iphones or a football club it isn't distinctly different as a concept.

You are right. I don't understand anything you are saying.