Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[nickm]

How the feck can the Guardian post stuff like that...

I like Simon Jenkins generally but he tends to write the same 3 columns all the time: 1) sanctions don't work, and won't in [this specific instance]. 2) war usually makes things worse and should be avoided 3) the English countryside is lovely.

 

[Frosty]

EDIT: message directly from the head of MI6

 

[Zehner]

So according to the Russians, Himars Gmlrs rockets are able to blow a 2m wide hole in a concrete bridge, but when it hits a warehouse filled with bunkbeds most of the beds are not even moved by the blast.
The M31 rockets have a warhead that weights over 90kg, with almost 50kg of explosives, if just one of those detonated inside this warehouse there would be nothing left of those beds.

The people who Rusia's government targets with such statements unfortunately don't care about evidence or reasoning. They're just offering an easy alternative to admitting that you've been wrong. Cognitive dissonances at its finest.

 

[Gehrman]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...muscovites-put-the-war-aside-and-enjoy-summer

 

[VorZakone]

 

[harms]

It’s the last post I’ll say here. I started off being appalled at the prospect of an actual war between two nations as close as each other. Nevertheless it happened and I was still appalled. I have to say that I was always entirely convinced that Ukrainians shelled innocent civilians in Donbas and Lughanks - for anyone to deny that Ukraine didn’t shell this area - would be the same as to say as Banyn Yar didn’t happen or Katyn.

I feel like you were trying to get to a point there but forgot about it half way? Even structurally — I started off, I was still, I was always...

 

[Krakenzero]

I feel like you were trying to get to a point there but forgot about it half way? Even structurally — I started off, I was still, I was always...

How are you doing @harms ? How do you see things from inside?

The stalemate can be harsh and disincouraging, I hope the UA holds on and will be able to regain ground soon. Getting Kherson back would be great, as it would help secure Odessa and allow exports to return to a somewhat normal point.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

So according to the Russians, Himars Gmlrs rockets are able to blow a 2m wide hole in a concrete bridge, but when it hits a warehouse filled with bunkbeds most of the beds are not even moved by the blast.
The M31 rockets have a warhead that weights over 90kg, with almost 50kg of explosives, if just one of those detonated inside this warehouse there would be nothing left of those beds.

I don’t think it’s in any doubt for those with any sense, but for a more detailed description I found this thread informative:

 

[harms]

How are you doing @harms ? How do you see things from inside?

The stalemate can be harsh and disincouraging, I hope the UA holds on and will be able to regain ground soon. Getting Kherson back would be great, as it would help secure Odessa and allow exports to return to a somewhat normal point.

I'm currently bedridden so I've been lying in my flat for weeks with very minimal outside contact, so take it with a pinch of salt (although even when I was walking I still more or less existed in a bubble that doesn't represent the real Russia).

Moscow tries to ignore that anything is even happening and its citizens mostly get on with their lives and their biggest worry is the exodus of Western companies and goods. Out of those that support the war it doesn't seem like their views are changing and, sadly, I don't think that more people are getting irritated/frustrated with Putin & co. — be it for moral reasons (those that had issues with the moral side have already made their choice back in Feburary) or for economical ones. The anti-war movement is there but I don't think that it's growing and obviously it's getting scarier by the day — especially since they've finally began to give real prison sentences for... calling the war "war" (7 years for Alexei Gorinov, 6,5 years for an activist in Smolensk etc.). The amount of denunciations seem to be increasing as well — at least there are more and more cases that are getting into the public sphere.

Government tries its best to increase the amount of soldiers on the ground — there's a "hidden mobilisation" with tons of money being spent on ads that recruit people to the army & to private military organisations like the Wagner group. Although not in Moscow or St. Petersburg, they mostly target smaller towns & villages since the pay that they offer works way better when juxtapositioned with the tragically low average income in those regions. ~200k rubles per month that they offer is still a lot of money in Moscow/St. Petersburg but not worth risking your life for — while in poorer provinces it can be up to 10 times more that their average monthly salary.

 

[Roger]

I thought they both looked a bit cross

 

[Denis79]

I thought they both looked a bit cross

They better not cross paths again.

 

[Roger]

It may seem a bit odd, but they desperately want to keep ukraine in the front covers, so they take any chance. As they should.

How does getting on the front of a fashion magazine change anything?

 

[Carolina Red]

How does getting on the front of a fashion magazine change anything?

Keeps them, and by extension, their country, in the public eye.

 

[Frosty]

Ukraine hits back at Russian calls to 'hang' Azov fighters
Ukrainian officials on Saturday denounced a call by Russia’s embassy in Britain for fighters from the Azov regiment to face a “humiliating” execution, AFP has reported.

The Russian embassy’s tweet said:

Azov militants deserve execution, but death not by firing squad but by hanging, because they’re not real soldiers. They deserve a humiliating death.

Twitter said the embassy had violated its rules on “hateful conduct” but put a warning on the tweet rather than ban the post about the Azov, a Ukrainian battalion that retains some far-right affiliations.

Andriy Yermak, the head of the office of the Ukrainian presidency, responded on Telegram:

Russia is a terrorist state. In the 21st century, only savages and terrorists can talk at the diplomatic level about the fact that people deserve to be executed by hanging. Russia is a state sponsor of terrorism. What more evidence is needed?

 

[Roger]

This has happened in a lot of European countries. Since the end of the cold war most western European countries have masively cut the spending on their armed forces and comletely ignored the security threats that still exist.

The threat was the Soviet Union which ceased to exist in 1991. There was no tangible threat, however NATO continued its expansion, (despite assurances that it would not) , into Eastern Europe and inevitably towards the Russian border. How do you think the USA would respond to a South America slowly coming under the influence of China. Mexico then makes moves to join to club. No prizes for guessing the outcome.

 

[Frosty]

NATO-Russia relations: the facts

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm#c203

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_25468.htm

https://www.rbth.com/international/2014/10/16/mikhail_gorbachev_i_am_against_all_walls_40673.html

 

[the hea]

The threat was the Soviet Union which ceased to exist in 1991. There was no tangible threat, however NATO continued its expansion, (despite assurances that it would not) , into Eastern Europe and inevitably towards the Russian border. How do you think the USA would respond to a South America slowly coming under the influence of China. Mexico then makes moves to join to club. No prizes for guessing the outcome.

Every single nation of those that joined NATO since the Cold War has done so on their own free will. Saying it is NATO who is expanding, when every nation that has joined since it was founded has done so by free will and has had to go through a very demanding process to be accepted, is just another of Putins silly lies. They expanded into NATO because they knew exactly what Russia is capable of and they where proven right.

If any South American country or any other country for that matter wants to create an alliance with someone, they should be free to do so and it is no reason for anyone to attack that country.

The fact that you seem to think that attacking another country, breaking all the laws of war, and basically comiting a genocide because of their foreign relations, doesn't really put you in the best of lights if I'm being honest.

 

[Roger]

Ukraine hits back at Russian calls to 'hang' Azov fighters
Ukrainian officials on Saturday denounced a call by Russia’s embassy in Britain for fighters from the Azov regiment to face a “humiliating” execution, AFP has reported.

The Russian embassy’s tweet said:



Twitter said the embassy had violated its rules on “hateful conduct” but put a warning on the tweet rather than ban the post about the Azov, a Ukrainian battalion that retains some far-right affiliations.

Andriy Yermak, the head of the office of the Ukrainian presidency, responded on Telegram:


Russia is a terrorist state. In the 21st century, only savages and terrorists can talk at the diplomatic level about the fact that people deserve to be executed by hanging. Russia is a state sponsor of terrorism. What more evidence is needed?

Frankly I couldn't care less about what happens to members of some Hitler worshiping cult that has been incorporated into the Ukrainian Military.

I care even less about some windbag politician speaking out in their defence. As for savagery this is the same regime who's Azov Battalion has spent the last 8 or so years bombing and targeting civilians in Donesk.

Some asshat spokesperson from the Russian Embassy talking smack proves nothing.

 

[VorZakone]

Frankly I couldn't care less about what happens to members of some Hitler worshiping cult that has been incorporated into the Ukrainian Military.

I care even less about some windbag politician speaking out in their defence. As for savagery this is the same regime who's Azov Battalion has spent the last 8 or so years bombing and targeting civilians in Donesk.

Some asshat spokesperson from the Russian Embassy talking smack proves nothing.

Not that I want to defend the views of Azov soldiers, but you do realize Russians have neonazi's of their own right? Shall we invade Russia because of that?

 

[Frosty]

Ros Atkins on the Azov Battalion:

 

[harms]

How do you think the USA would respond to a South America slowly coming under the influence of China. Mexico then makes moves to join to club. No prizes for guessing the outcome.

What's the point of this hypothetical? Or do you think that U.S.A. would be justified in, say, invading Mexico if China's influence on it would outgrow that of United States?

Also, what exactly are Putin/Russia supposed to fear, NATO's invasion? M.A.D. is still very much a thing, and it's one of the reasons that on the ground Ukraine still fights this war alone, even though with a ton of support from the NATO states.

 

[Stactix]

The threat was the Soviet Union which ceased to exist in 1991. There was no tangible threat, however NATO continued its expansion, (despite assurances that it would not) , into Eastern Europe and inevitably towards the Russian border. How do you think the USA would respond to a South America slowly coming under the influence of China. Mexico then makes moves to join to club. No prizes for guessing the outcome.

Oh that ol chestnut, the invasion of Ukraine justifies every single one of them nations joining.

Do you really fecking think Estonia would still be standing if it hadn't joined?

 

[Frosty]

Who Are The Neo-Nazis Fighting For Russia In Ukraine?

https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-neo-nazis-fighting-ukraine/31871760.html

Russia's long history of neo-Nazis

https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2022/opinion/russias-long-history-of-neo-nazis4

German neo-Nazis trained at Russian camps: report

From 2020: https://www.dw.com/en/german-neo-nazis-trained-at-russian-camps-report/a-53692907

'Denazification'? Neo-Nazi Groups Fighting Alongside Russian Forces in Ukraine

https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/...-ukraine/00000180-fcb7-d338-a3d0-feb763f30000

If anyone thinks I am being selective, here is a piece from May 2022 detailing the growing threat of the far-right in the UK:

Far-right conspiracy theories are now embedded in the UK mainstream

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/far-right-mainstream-conspiracy-theory-uk/

Takeaway quote:

The UK has experienced more far-right terror attacks and plots than any state in Europe. Around a third of domestic terror threats now come from the far Right, according to the head of MI5, who also said that children as young as 13 are being recruited by far-right extremists.

Recent incidents include a teenage neo-Nazi caught plotting attacks on synagogues; a four-person cell using a 3D printer to make firearm components; and a man who rampaged through Stanwell, Surrey, attacking cars and shouting “white supremacists rule. I’m going to murder a Muslim”, before stabbing a Bulgarian teenager.

----

I don't think I have heard of a European country that doesn't have a far-right operating within it. The UK has plenty of neo-nazis. It should all be combatted and stamped out.

None of that, or the existence of the far-right in Ukraine, changes the realities or underlying reasons for the illegal invasion, or the horrific acts which have been perpetrated by some Russian soldiers.

 

[Frosty]

Oh that ol chestnut, the invasion of Ukraine justifies every single one of them nations joining.

Do you really fecking think Estonia would still be standing if it hadn't joined?

I know that is a rhetorical question, but I worked in Estonia for a little while, and practically everyone I met was very grateful for being a part of both the EU and NATO.

 

[Frosty]

 

[Gehrman]

Who Are The Neo-Nazis Fighting For Russia In Ukraine?

https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-neo-nazis-fighting-ukraine/31871760.html

Russia's long history of neo-Nazis

https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2022/opinion/russias-long-history-of-neo-nazis4

German neo-Nazis trained at Russian camps: report

From 2020: https://www.dw.com/en/german-neo-nazis-trained-at-russian-camps-report/a-53692907

'Denazification'? Neo-Nazi Groups Fighting Alongside Russian Forces in Ukraine

https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/...-ukraine/00000180-fcb7-d338-a3d0-feb763f30000

If anyone thinks I am being selective, here is a piece from May 2022 detailing the growing threat of the far-right in the UK:

Far-right conspiracy theories are now embedded in the UK mainstream

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/far-right-mainstream-conspiracy-theory-uk/

Takeaway quote:

The UK has experienced more far-right terror attacks and plots than any state in Europe. Around a third of domestic terror threats now come from the far Right, according to the head of MI5, who also said that children as young as 13 are being recruited by far-right extremists.

Recent incidents include a teenage neo-Nazi caught plotting attacks on synagogues; a four-person cell using a 3D printer to make firearm components; and a man who rampaged through Stanwell, Surrey, attacking cars and shouting “white supremacists rule. I’m going to murder a Muslim”, before stabbing a Bulgarian teenager.

----

I don't think I have heard of a European country that doesn't have a far-right operating within it. The UK has plenty of neo-nazis. It should all be combatted and stamped out.

None of that, or the existence of the far-right in Ukraine, changes the realities or underlying reasons for the illegal invasion, or the horrific acts which have been perpetrated by some Russian soldiers.

"At least we don't dehumanize our opponents by calling them orcs" - a Russian redcafe poster.

No you dehumanize them all by calling them all Nazis.

 

[Roger]

Every single nation of those that joined NATO since the Cold War has done so on their own free will. Saying it is NATO who is expanding, when every nation that has joined since it was founded has done so by free will and has had to go through a very demanding process to be accepted, is just another of Putins silly lies. They expanded into NATO because they knew exactly what Russia is capable of and they where proven right.

If any South American country or any other country for that matter wants to create an alliance with someone, they should be free to do so and it is no reason for anyone to attack that country.

The fact that you seem to think that attacking another country, breaking all the laws of war, and basically comiting a genocide because of their foreign relations, doesn't really put you in the best of lights if I'm being honest.

You are certainly not being honest if you are suggesting that I gave my support to the invasion I didn't. While there may be evidence of war crimes, by both sides, there is no evidence of a campaign to wipe out any ethnic group,

Of course these countries joined NATO of their own free will, what's the alternative? Even then this has no relevance. NATO have actually expanded- fact, Are you seriously suggesting NATO haven't expanded because other former Eastern block countries applied to join. How they joined is not important the real question is why.

Frankly I can't be bothered to debate with someone as dishonest and ignorant as you appear to be.

If you are a victim of the US eduction system, please accept my apologies.

 

[Denis79]

Ros Atkins on the Azov Battalion:

Ukraine conflict: 'White power' warrior from Sweden - BBC News

 

[Frosty]

Ukraine conflict: 'White power' warrior from Sweden - BBC News

Yes, plenty of similar reports over the past eight years. As Atkins notes, there is a far-right in Ukraine, and there are far-right soldiers in the Ukrainian military.

Here's a report from TIME in January 2021:


And one from The Guardian in 2017:

 

[the hea]

You are certainly not being honest if you are suggesting that I gave my support to the invasion I didn't. While there may be evidence of war crimes, by both sides, there is no evidence of a campaign to wipe out any ethnic group,

Frankly I can't be bothered to debate with someone as dishonest and ignorant as you appear to be.

You come here making excuses for the Russian atrocities commited in Ukraine but have no interest in debating it when getting called out. OK.

Of course these countries joined NATO of their own free will, what's the alternative? Even then this has no relevance. NATO have actually expanded- fact, Are you seriously suggesting NATO haven't expanded because other former Eastern block countries applied to join. How they joined is not important the real question is why.

I already answered this question. They joined because due to their history, they knew exactly what Russia is, and they where proven right.

If you are a victim of the US eduction system, please accept my apologies.

Never set foot in the U.S. but I would love to visit there one day as it seems a great country.

 

[Denis79]

Yes, plenty of similar reports over the past eight years. As Atkins notes, there is a far-right in Ukraine, and there are far-right soldiers in the Ukrainian military.

Here's a report from TIME in January 2021:


And one from The Guardian in 2017:

Nazism should never ever be whitewashed, even if it's fighting murdering cnuts like Putin. I have no sympathy for any Nazis dying in the Azov battalion.

 

[Simbo]

Such a fecking stupid debate about the men and women putting themselves first in line to fight against the living modern embodiment of Hitler's nazi germany.

 

[Frosty]

Any measures the Ukrainian state take against the far-right in their country should be supported and encouraged. No one is apologising for Nazism.

As the BBC report shows, there is a far-right in Ukraine, and the Azov Battalion from 2014 is not the same as the one fighting in 2022.

The openly racist leader left in 2015 to found a political party which won very few votes. The Azov leader at the start of the invasion is Jewish, and they had Tatars, Russians and Jewish soldiers fighting under it.

“Azov’s history is rooted in a volunteer battalion formed by the leadership of a neo-Nazi group. But it is certain that Azov has depoliticised itself,” said Anton Shekhovtsov, a Vienna-based Ukrainian expert on Russia’s connections to Europe’s far-right. “Its history linked to the far-right movement is pretty irrelevant today.”

https://www.ft.com/content/7191ec30-9677-423d-873c-e72b64725c2d

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/...ttalion-means-we-are-falling-into-putins-trap

https://www.ft.com/content/7191ec30-9677-423d-873c-e72b64725c2d

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...ol-what-is-ukraines-azov-regiment-2022-05-17/

There are some neo-Nazis in Ukraine. There were also al-Qaeda members in Syria. Neither is a justification for Russia's atrocities, which is what the Kremlin are doing when they keep invoking Ukrainian Nazis.

As Oz Katerji said in April in the New Statesman article:

That’s where this argument moves from the absurd to the obscene. Vladimir Putin is a major sponsor of far-right political parties across Europe, and is close to a militia (the Wagner Group) that is involved in military action around the world and has been linked to white supremacy movements. Under Putin, Russia has regressed into a totalitarian fascist regime. He threatens Ukraine not because it has a far-right element, but because Ukraine is a growing, sovereign liberal democracy that he can no longer control.

Russia’s information war focuses on Ukraine’s neo-Nazis because it seeks to take control of the narrative. It wants to dehumanise Ukrainians to the point that when a bomb is fired on a theatre full of children in Mariupol, it can blame the atrocity on Azov and avoid international condemnation and accountability. This is a tried-and-tested model that Russia has perfected in Syria over the past decade.

 

[Frosty]

Back to news:

 

[Frosty]

 

[Frosty]

 

[Frosty]

More weapons:

 

[Carolina Red]

what's the alternative?

Not joining and having Russia invade you.

 

[TwoSheds]

You are certainly not being honest if you are suggesting that I gave my support to the invasion I didn't. While there may be evidence of war crimes, by both sides, there is no evidence of a campaign to wipe out any ethnic group,

Of course these countries joined NATO of their own free will, what's the alternative? Even then this has no relevance. NATO have actually expanded- fact, Are you seriously suggesting NATO haven't expanded because other former Eastern block countries applied to join. How they joined is not important the real question is why.

Frankly I can't be bothered to debate with someone as dishonest and ignorant as you appear to be.

If you are a victim of the US eduction system, please accept my apologies.

1. There's a hell of a lot more evidence of Russian war crimes than there is Ukrainian.
2. Ukrainians are an ethnic group. But even if they weren't I'm sure all the civilians would be really heartened to know that they're not dying painfully and having their homes and livelihoods destroyed as part of a campaign to wipe them out, but just because reasons.
3. They joined NATO because they didn't want to get invaded by fascists. And they haven't.
4. I'm sure you're not being dishonest but you should really consider whether you might be wilfully ignorant.

 

[VorZakone]

I wouldn't be surprised if Russia is actively trying to "tempt" Ukrainians into committing war crimes of their own. The goal would be for Ukraine to lose PR points and maybe even result in foreign aid getting canceled.