Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

this thread is consistently the worst one in the ce section. the same old debates are rehashed time and time again. it's circular beyond parody.

every argument and counter argument about the war has been made a hundred times over. yet somehow we're on page 840 making the same arguments that were made and in better context imo back in february and march.

are their neo nazis in ukraine? yes. were they incorporated into ukraine's official military apparatus? yes. is it just the azov? no. does this justify preemptive war on the part of russia? no. have ukrainians committed war crimes? yes. have the russians committed war crimes? yes. why has this happened? it has something to do with ordering hundreds of thousands of people to pick up guns and murder each other and pretend that it's normal. tends to happen in every war. that's that one finished.

what else? nato. did it expand contrary to its promises? yes. is that a reason for russia to invade ukraine? no. can you understand why russia might do it using the logic of another state like the us? yes. does this logic make russia's invasion morally ok? no, because no one, except die hard american exceptionalists, justify america's invasions, either.

i've lost the point of this thread. will only say that this reaffirms my view that you're seeing a stalemate which will not change much and the substantial facts of war could be condensed into a biweekly article. that's typically the case for these tangents which were very relevant at the outset but are now like banging your head against the wall after everyone has argued over them ad nauseum.
 
VorZakone said:
I wouldn't be surprised if Russia is actively trying to "tempt" Ukrainians into committing war crimes of their own. The goal would be for Ukraine to lose PR points and maybe even result in foreign aid getting canceled.
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Russia and Ukraine are not in a similar position. It is Russia who invaded Ukraine, while Ukraine did absolutely nothing against Russia. Not before the war, and not now.

For example, if someone invades your home trying to kill you, any court of law will not see in the same light your actions and the invader's actions.
 
Carolina Red said:
You know you can ignore threads, right?

serious question
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yeah. thought it was worth pointing out though. this thread can be good if there's people posting news updates. it can be crap if it's just the same old arguments. i visit it infrequently anyway so just ignore last comment.
 
neverdie said:
yeah. thought it was worth pointing out though. this thread can be good if there's people posting news updates. it can be crap if it's just the same old arguments. i visit it infrequently anyway so just ignore last comment.
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To be fair, I get what you’re saying, and I agree. The same arguments pop up in between updates and it’s like “damn, didn’t we just talk about this?”

But also… I can’t ignore threads :lol:
 
neverdie said:
his thread is consistently the worst one in the ce section. the same old debates are rehashed time and time again. it's circular beyond parody.

every argument and counter argument about the war has been made a hundred times over. yet somehow we're on page 840 making the same arguments that were made and in better context imo back in february and march.

are their neo nazis in ukraine? yes. were they incorporated into ukraine's official military apparatus? yes. is it just the azov? no. does this justify preemptive war on the part of russia? no. have ukrainians committed war crimes? yes. have the russians committed war crimes? yes. why has this happened? it has something to do with ordering hundreds of thousands of people to pick up guns and murder each other and pretend that it's normal. tends to happen in every war. that's that one finished.

what else? nato. did it expand contrary to its promises? yes. is that a reason for russia to invade ukraine? no. can you understand why russia might do it using the logic of another state like the us? yes. does this logic make russia's invasion morally ok? no, because no one, except die hard american exceptionalists, justify america's invasions, either.

i've lost the point of this thread. will only say that this reaffirms my view that you're seeing a stalemate which will not change much and the substantial facts of war could be condensed into a biweekly article. that's typically the case for these tangents which were very relevant at the outset but are now like banging your head against the wall after everyone has argued over them ad nauseum
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I fully understand, that for someone not involved in this conflict and with no history of dealing with the Russians, reading the same arguments can get old pretty fast. But for us who live close to Russia and who have a history of Russian aggression, standing up for the Ukrainians feels very important. For me personally I can say that both my grandfathers fought against Russian invaders. One lost his brother, and the other got severly injured and although he survived the war, he died long before I was born due to the injuries from the war. My grandfather from my mothers side who lived long enough to meet me never talked much about the war, but one thing he always told me was, the reason why every man in the country took up weapons and fought off the Russian invaders was because of their children. They wanted them to have the opportunity to decide the future of our country and not some tsar in Moscow.

80 years later this is exactly what is happening in Ukraine right now, in 2014 the Ukrainian people revolted and said that they wanted no more of the corrupt Russian influenced leadership, they wanted a free democracy where the people themself can decide the future of their country and not some self proclaimd tsar in Moscov.
 
Garethw said:
I’m not talking nuclear, but I can’t see how this gets resolved. Just throwing it out there as a discussion point.
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Russian army gets defeated, Russian people turn on Putin because the Russian people never accepts a weak leader. After that no one knows.
 
Carolina Red said:
To be fair, I get what you’re saying, and I agree. The same arguments pop up in between updates and it’s like “damn, didn’t we just talk about this?”

But also… I can’t ignore threads :lol:
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yep, mostly just me looking for news update and seeing nazi, nato, warcrimes, and everything else being reinvented for the 1000th time.

the hea said:
I fully understand, that for someone not involved in this conflict and with no history of dealing with the Russians, reading the same arguments can get old pretty fast. But for us who live close to Russia and who have a history of Russian aggression, standing up for the Ukrainians feels very important. For me personally I can say that both my grandfathers fought against Russian invaders. One lost his brother, and the other got severly injured and although he survived the war, he died long before I was born due to the injuries from the war. My grandfather from my mothers side who lived long enough to meet me never talked much about the war, but one thing he always told me was, the reason why every man in the country took up weapons and fought off the Russian invaders was because of their children. They wanted them to have the opportunity to decide the future of our country and not some tsar in Moscow.

80 years later this is exactly what is happening in Ukraine right now, in 2014 the Ukrainian people revolted and said that they wanted no more of the corrupt Russian influenced leadership, they wanted a free democracy where the people themself can decide the future of their country and not some self proclaimd tsar in Moscov.
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i understand your position. not a dig at you personally. or anyone. just feel like we've done all these arguments. the nato side was spoken about. the russian side was spoken about. the separatist thing, the reaction to it. i think it's the lull between updates and the occasional poster who doesn't seem to post often reprising something i've read about 500 pages ago.

my own view is more cynical than most people's in this thread. that's why i usually just scan it. was only boredom that made me post!
 
neverdie said:
yeah. thought it was worth pointing out though. this thread can be good if there's people posting news updates. it can be crap if it's just the same old arguments. i visit it infrequently anyway so just ignore last comment.
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Don’t tread into the FDJ thread then!
 
neverdie said:
this thread is consistently the worst one in the ce section. the same old debates are rehashed time and time again. it's circular beyond parody.

every argument and counter argument about the war has been made a hundred times over. yet somehow we're on page 840 making the same arguments that were made and in better context imo back in february and march.

are their neo nazis in ukraine? yes. were they incorporated into ukraine's official military apparatus? yes. is it just the azov? no. does this justify preemptive war on the part of russia? no. have ukrainians committed war crimes? yes. have the russians committed war crimes? yes. why has this happened? it has something to do with ordering hundreds of thousands of people to pick up guns and murder each other and pretend that it's normal. tends to happen in every war. that's that one finished.

what else? nato. did it expand contrary to its promises? yes. is that a reason for russia to invade ukraine? no. can you understand why russia might do it using the logic of another state like the us? yes. does this logic make russia's invasion morally ok? no, because no one, except die hard american exceptionalists, justify america's invasions, either.

i've lost the point of this thread. will only say that this reaffirms my view that you're seeing a stalemate which will not change much and the substantial facts of war could be condensed into a biweekly article. that's typically the case for these tangents which were very relevant at the outset but are now like banging your head against the wall after everyone has argued over them ad nauseum.
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This is constantly the worst and least knowledgeable poster in this thread.
 
Roger said:
You are certainly not being honest if you are suggesting that I gave my support to the invasion I didn't. While there may be evidence of war crimes, by both sides, there is no evidence of a campaign to wipe out any ethnic group,

Of course these countries joined NATO of their own free will, what's the alternative? Even then this has no relevance. NATO have actually expanded- fact, Are you seriously suggesting NATO haven't expanded because other former Eastern block countries applied to join. How they joined is not important the real question is why.

Frankly I can't be bothered to debate with someone as dishonest and ignorant as you appear to be.

If you are a victim of the US eduction system, please accept my apologies.
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Same reason most countries have joined NATO or want to join NATO they don't want to get invaded by Russia.
 
stevoc said:
Same reason most countries have joined NATO or want to join NATO they don't want to get invaded by Russia.
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That question must be a real headache for him at the moment.
 
Roger said:
Frankly I couldn't care less about what happens to members of some Hitler worshiping cult that has been incorporated into the Ukrainian Military.

I care even less about some windbag politician speaking out in their defence. As for savagery this is the same regime who's Azov Battalion has spent the last 8 or so years bombing and targeting civilians in Donesk.

Some asshat spokesperson from the Russian Embassy talking smack proves nothing.
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I hope there is competent mental health institutions in your country, go log off and get help ASAP. We are all rooting for you and Ukraine to destroy the Orcs. UwU
 
Roger said:
You are certainly not being honest if you are suggesting that I gave my support to the invasion I didn't. While there may be evidence of war crimes, by both sides, there is no evidence of a campaign to wipe out any ethnic group,

Of course these countries joined NATO of their own free will, what's the alternative? Even then this has no relevance. NATO have actually expanded- fact, Are you seriously suggesting NATO haven't expanded because other former Eastern block countries applied to join. How they joined is not important the real question is why.

Frankly I can't be bothered to debate with someone as dishonest and ignorant as you appear to be.

If you are a victim of the US eduction system, please accept my apologies.
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NATO is a defensive alliance ffs. Nobody on this whole planet honestly believes that NATO under any circumstances would have invaded Russia preemptively. In fact, nobody believes that NATO would invade Russia under ANY circumstances.

It's like criticizing somebody for learning self defense. What is even Russia's problem with "NATO expansion"? "If you join NATO now, you rob us of the option of invading you, so unfortunately we have to do it immediately! Sorry, but the blame is on you!"

Jesus. Do you guys have any capacity for independent thinking at all? Start using your head.
 
Zehner said:
NATO is a defensive alliance ffs. Nobody on this whole planet honestly believes that NATO under any circumstances would have invaded Russia preemptively. In fact, nobody believes that NATO would invade Russia under ANY circumstances.

It's like criticizing somebody for learning self defense. What is even Russia's problem with "NATO expansion"? "If you join NATO now, you rob us of the option of invading you, so unfortunately we have to do it immediately! Sorry, but the blame is on you!"

Jesus. Do you guys have any capacity for independent thinking at all? Start using your head.
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Yeah Nato is this existential threat to Russia, because it means they will get hammered if they attack a Nato country. How unfair. With Russian officials atm blustering about retaking the old soviet bloc, it's no wonder these countries are in Nato and it's not surprising that Ukraine would want to part of that considering they are experiencing a full scale invasion hell bent on anexing the country.
 
Frosty said:
I know that is a rhetorical question, but I worked in Estonia for a little while, and practically everyone I met was very grateful for being a part of both the EU and NATO.
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Visited once and loved it, had an ex from there. Would go back tommorow if I could.
 
Frosty said:
I know that is a rhetorical question, but I worked in Estonia for a little while, and practically everyone I met was very grateful for being a part of both the EU and NATO.
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Yes, we are, it's been our foreign policy agenda ever since 1992.
 
Garethw said:
Can anyone see this ending in anything other than WW3?
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The Russian people will eventually turn on Putin. He has brought them to ruin and when they properly feel the effects of his actions he will be chased out. And with that the war will end. Atleast this is what I'm hoping for that high standing Russians do a coup soon.
 
Denis79 said:
The Russian people will eventually turn on Putin. He has brought them to ruin and when they properly feel the effects of his actions he will be chased out. And with that the war will end. Atleast this is what I'm hoping for that high standing Russians do a coup soon.
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Doubt it. Dictators are impossible to get rid of. And the state media will brainwash them anyway.
 
Gehrman said:
Doubt it. Dictators are impossible to get rid of. And the state media will brainwash them anyway.
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Several dictators in history who have been removed from power by his own people. Might have to get real bad before it happens though.
 
Denis79 said:
Several dictators in history who have been removed from power by his own people. Might have to get real bad before it happens though.
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Putin has high approval ratings though. It would take a massive revolution for it happens and I just dont see it.
 


Russia is plundering gold in Sudan to boost Putin's war effort in Ukraine

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/29/africa/sudan-russia-gold-investigation-cmd-intl/index.html

Khartoum, Sudan (CNN) - Days after Moscow launched its bloody war on Ukraine, a Russian cargo plane stood on a Khartoum runway, a strip of tarmac surrounded by red-orange sand. The aircraft's manifest stated it was loaded with cookies. Sudan rarely, if ever, exports cookies.

A heated debate transpired between officials in a back office of Khartoum International Airport. They feared that inspecting the plane would vex the country's increasingly pro-Russian military leadership. Multiple previous attempts to intercept suspicious Russian carriers had been stopped. Ultimately, however, the officials decided to board the plane.

Inside the hold, colorful boxes of cookies stretched out before them. Hidden just beneath were wooden crates of Sudan's most precious resource. Gold. Roughly one ton of it.

This incident in February -- recounted by multiple official Sudanese sources to CNN -- is one of at least 16 known Russian gold smuggling flights out of Sudan, Africa's third largest producer of the precious metal, over the last year and a half.
 
neverdie said:
what else? nato. did it expand contrary to its promises? yes.
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Did NATO expand contrary to its treaty commitments? No.

neverdie said:
can you understand why russia might do it using the logic of another state like the us? yes.
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What does that even mean?

neverdie said:
does this logic make russia's invasion morally ok? no, because no one, except die hard american exceptionalists, justify america's invasions, either.
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What on earth has the morality of Russia's actions in Ukraine got to do with the US?
 
nickm said:
Did NATO expand contrary to its treaty commitments? No.



What does that even mean?



What on earth has the morality of Russia's actions in Ukraine got to do with the US?
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i've given you a quick summary of every argument that derails the thread from news updates and decent answers to all of them. let's say ukraine are angels are russia is the devil. problem solved. no one disagrees that preemptive war was good. when people say "what would the us have done" they're saying "can you judge russia's response according to the logic of another state and major power like the us?" the answer is yes but that only holds if you want to leave morality behind completely because while the us has and will act like this in its own region, do the people who defend russia's war also defend those wars made by the us? the answer to that question is no. well, some do to be fair but they at least don't pretend that morality matters in their calculations. mearsheimer and that crowd.
 
Frosty said:


Russia is plundering gold in Sudan to boost Putin's war effort in Ukraine

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/29/africa/sudan-russia-gold-investigation-cmd-intl/index.html

Khartoum, Sudan (CNN) - Days after Moscow launched its bloody war on Ukraine, a Russian cargo plane stood on a Khartoum runway, a strip of tarmac surrounded by red-orange sand. The aircraft's manifest stated it was loaded with cookies. Sudan rarely, if ever, exports cookies.

A heated debate transpired between officials in a back office of Khartoum International Airport. They feared that inspecting the plane would vex the country's increasingly pro-Russian military leadership. Multiple previous attempts to intercept suspicious Russian carriers had been stopped. Ultimately, however, the officials decided to board the plane.

Inside the hold, colorful boxes of cookies stretched out before them. Hidden just beneath were wooden crates of Sudan's most precious resource. Gold. Roughly one ton of it.

This incident in February -- recounted by multiple official Sudanese sources to CNN -- is one of at least 16 known Russian gold smuggling flights out of Sudan, Africa's third largest producer of the precious metal, over the last year and a half.
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The Girl Scout’s guide to gold smuggling
 
And this expanding NATO, is it in the room with us right now?

neverdie said:
this thread is consistently the worst one in the ce section. the same old debates are rehashed time and time again. it's circular beyond parody.
every argument and counter argument about the war has been made a hundred times over. yet somehow we're on page 840 making the same arguments that were made and in better context imo back in february and march.

are their neo nazis in ukraine? yes. were they incorporated into ukraine's official military apparatus? yes. is it just the azov? no. does this justify preemptive war on the part of russia? no. have ukrainians committed war crimes? yes. have the russians committed war crimes? yes. why has this happened? it has something to do with ordering hundreds of thousands of people to pick up guns and murder each other and pretend that it's normal. tends to happen in every war. that's that one finished.

what else? nato. did it expand contrary to its promises? yes. is that a reason for russia to invade ukraine? no. can you understand why russia might do it using the logic of another state like the us? yes. does this logic make russia's invasion morally ok? no, because no one, except die hard american exceptionalists, justify america's invasions, either.

i've lost the point of this thread. will only say that this reaffirms my view that you're seeing a stalemate which will not change much and the substantial facts of war could be condensed into a biweekly article. that's typically the case for these tangents which were very relevant at the outset but are now like banging your head against the wall after everyone has argued over them ad nauseum.
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I'd propose an alternative approach:

Is invading countries bad? Yes. /Thread.
 
Frosty said:
Saw that. The Ukrainians denied it almost immediately which makes me think that it was another piss-poor attempt at a false flag.
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Hard to say what happened, although I wouldn't be surprised if the Ukrainians are involved in some form of sabotage against Russian navy assets (which they would obviously deny publicly).
 
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