Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Gandalf Greyhame said:
Unpopular opinion, but I don't think there's any good guys here. It's criminals fighting criminals, and the common citizens paying a price for it. Putin doesn't have the 'western' luxury of social media and news organizations whitewashing his crimes globally, so it's easier to make him the only villain (he is, not questioning that at all). But the US and UK coming in with their holier than thou bullshit and using other countries to fight their proxy wars is a story we've heard all too often. London clearly encourages Russian corruption, and the US and UK have no right to speak about a superpower invading other countries. 'Spreading the seeds of democracy' and 'civilizing territorites' are just more palatable lies than de-Nazifying a nation. In India, we are yet to celebrate our 75th Independence Day - people seem to forget we had to fight our own wars, and lose many lives to force our English colonizers away to achieve the very goals they posture about championing today. Of all pseudo participants in this war, Germany, now sitting pretty atop a European hierarchy, should best remember what happens when you suffocate a proud animal of space, humiliate it on a global stage and back into a corner with only one way out.

I am shocked at the horrors unfolding in Ukraine - it is unprovoked war on civilians. I am by no means condoning Putin's actions - he is committing war crimes and should be punished, and his retaliation to Western isolation could and should have been diplomatic. I also believe democracy is the least of all evils, so will begrudgingly, but always, choose sides that fight for it. But it cannot be denied that the West forced wounded Putin and mowed him into a corner so they could wave their big dick around, and turned blind eye when Russian interference and corrpution suited their domestic interests while Putin gathered power in retaliation. History repeats itself, the roles merely change.

I hope Russia withdraws their troops. I hope Putin sees sense in his losses and takes the diplomatic route, maybe via Ukraine accepting neutrality and a couple of other conditions, so his economy can recover from the mess. I also hope that NATO stops expanding, Germany reveres its decision to strengthen its military, and China doesn't use this incident as a blueprint for Taiwan. Above all, I hope Ukranians can go back home and stop being pawns on a chessboard they could not influence, and stop living through a war that they did not deserve.
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What do you mean by that exactly?
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
I respect you as a poster, so I'll clarify.

I'm fairly certain the context of the post makes it clear that the 'criminals' there are NATO+allies and Russia. That the former is fighting a proxy war against the latter via Ukraine, whose citizens are the victims of this situation. Ukranian housewives and senior citizens are unfortunately bearing the arms and being shelled out of their homes, but they didn't start the war - Russians did. In response to the former's diplomatic and geo-political aggression over decades. This was definitely the wrong means of retaliation when diplomatic measures could have done the trick, and that's what makes Putin a war criminal who needs to be countered. But the retaliation was inevitable due to actions the former took, and this military aggression was long coming and long ignored by NATO and co - when elections are being rigged in your favour and Russians are funding your campaigns and buying you influence, no one cares.

I am happy to be pointed towards reliable resources that point otherwise since I'm not learned on this topic. But I have not once blamed the citizens of a country fighting for survival, would not even dream of it.
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:lol:
 
berbatrick said:
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Russia/SU has delivered gas to Germany for decades without any interruptions except when Ukrainians tried to steal from the pipelines. If it keeps flowing it is absurd but absolutely fits the history of this specific business.
 
Rektsanwalt said:
Regarding all of the tu quoque bullshit going around in this thread, I have a simple question with a rather simplified version of what I'm thinking atm and can't really elaborate with my COVID-19 rotten brain:

the guy that hits his wife at home, but intervenes in a public space when someone else is hitting a woman for no reason, is he wrong when stopping the attacker?
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This is a bit of a strange example.

Of course he wouldn't be wrong.

What people might consider a little strange though is if that guy also spends his time talking about how he's a huge advocate for women's rights and portrays himself as an advocate for women at risk of DV, when it turns out he has in the past (and continues to) consistently hit women himself.

I don't think generally this thread is the right one to continually bring this up (and I myself have responded to others who've constantly brought up the Iraq war on here etc) as I don't think its particularly all that relevant.

What is relatively clear though is that most people (and most media outlets) do have a relatively blinkered view of certain conflicts vs others. The reasons for that are, for me anyway, quite clear, though I imagine some on here would come up with excuse after excuse for it, but its perhaps not the best thread to continually bring it up.

All of the above does not mean that you don't want Putin to be sent back packing with his tail between his legs though.
 
golden_blunder said:
What do you mean by that exactly?
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Gandalf Greyhame said:
I'm fairly certain the context of the post makes it clear that the 'criminals' there are NATO+allies and Russia. That the former is fighting a proxy war against the latter via Ukraine, whose citizens are the victims of this situation. Ukranian housewives and senior citizens are unfortunately bearing the arms and being shelled out of their homes, but they didn't start the war - Russians did. In response to the former's diplomatic and geo-political aggression over decades. This was definitely the wrong means of retaliation when diplomatic measures could have done the trick, and that's what makes Putin a war criminal who needs to be countered. But the retaliation was inevitable due to actions the former took, and this military aggression was long coming and long ignored by NATO and co - when elections are being rigged in your favour and Russians are funding your campaigns and buying you influence, no one cares.

I am happy to be pointed towards reliable resources that point otherwise since I'm not learned on this topic. But I have not once blamed the citizens of a country fighting for survival, would not even dream of it.
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Smores said:
Is RT a direct propoganda line from the Kremlin or is it like the Daily Mail/Fox News spinning whatever direction they think the government is going in?
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It is a russian state owned direct propoganda line.

.......so just like daily mail/fox news.
 
shamans said:
Does it bother you to have a mirror put in front? Why make the injustice of calling out the same shit in other countries a joke? feck Russia but lets not kid ourselves how bigoted some of the news outlets have been about this. Calling this a bigger crises because it's "civilized europe".

You have some on here thinking this is a fascinating first time ever war on social media.
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It's a bigger crisis because its a nuclear superpower invading a European country. You cant really be surprised that European and Western media cares more about such an unprecedented and potentially world defining event than a civil war in the Middle East.
 
the_cliff said:
You've solved the problem of crowded prisons. Let's let all the murderers out as long as they commit a good deed today.
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Yes, that's indeed the message - you got it.

My point being is that while it's fair to criticize UK, US, EU or whatever for what they did wrong in the past (and that's a lot!), it's absolute fair and not immorale or hypocritical to take actions against this unjustifiable attack on Ukraine by Putin's Russia.
It doesn't matter that my country set the world on fire 1939-1945, it does not matter that the UK committed absolute inhumane crimes due to imperial madness or that the US ravaged whole countries just for the sake of gaining political power and oil. These actions against Russia are right. Even coming from countries and entities which have committed atrocities - or even are committing them at this very moment.
 
TMDaines said:
Russia out of the men’s World Cup and women’s Euros:


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Out of interest, has FIFA ever banned a country from competitions, other than when they feel the government has gotten involved in their local FA affairs?
 
led_scholes said:
Why they should take Crimea back? Especially with force. The population wanted to leave Ukraine and join Russia. Do you also support Serbia taking by force Kossovo?
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Christ sake man, I've made my point couple of times now - Crimea is Ukrainian. Elections were rigged. And lets just pretend they weren't rigged and western media propaganda yada yada - Crimea is still ukrainian. You don't like Ukraine? Leave. You want Russia? Go to Russia then. Crimea is Ukraine, was Ukraine and will be Ukraine. Would you support Serbia taking Kossovo if Serbia sent civilians to populate Kosovo and they would call for a coup within couple of years? Would you acknowledge Russian invasion if they had Russians living in Kiev wanted Russia to come and "peacekeep"? Are you not asking yourself, why the hell are the population in Ukraine, if they don't want to be in Ukraine? Russian border ain't that far away.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
I respect you as a poster, so I'll clarify.

I'm fairly certain the context of the post makes it clear that the 'criminals' there are NATO+allies and Russia. That the former is fighting a proxy war against the latter via Ukraine, whose citizens are the victims of this situation. Ukranian housewives and senior citizens are unfortunately bearing the arms and being shelled out of their homes, but they didn't start the war - Russians did. In response to the former's diplomatic and geo-political aggression over decades. This was definitely the wrong means of retaliation when diplomatic measures could have done the trick, and that's what makes Putin a war criminal who needs to be countered. But the retaliation was inevitable due to actions the former took, and this military aggression was long coming and long ignored by NATO and co - when elections are being rigged in your favour and Russians are funding your campaigns and buying you influence, no one cares.

I am happy to be pointed towards reliable resources that point otherwise since I'm not learned on this topic. But I have not once blamed the citizens of a country fighting for survival, would not even dream of it.
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I suggest you look at any election monitoring organisation, either independent or by anyone that isn't Russian.. You will ironically find the interference that was called out, was that Russia was attempting to influence the Ukrainian election.

No one needs to do your homework. Find your own sources.
 
africanspur said:
Out of interest, has FIFA ever banned a country from competitions, other than when they feel the government has gotten involved in their local FA affairs?
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Uefa booted Yugoslavia out of Euro 92, with Denmark replacing them and winning with Big Pete.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
Sigh. I tried.
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If you had posted, what you posted second, first, I’m sure many of us what have had a lot more sympathy. Coming in with sloppy language and a complete lack of awareness for any Ukrainian agency in this was always going to get people’s backs up.
 
shamans said:
Does it bother you to have a mirror put in front? Why make the injustice of calling out the same shit in other countries a joke? feck Russia but lets not kid ourselves how bigoted some of the news outlets have been about this. Calling this a bigger crises because it's "civilized europe".

You have some on here thinking this is a fascinating first time ever war on social media.
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You can put a mirror infront of every country and find issue you know depending on how far you pick to look back. Where are you from may I ask?
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
I respect you as a poster, so I'll clarify.

I'm fairly certain the context of the post makes it clear that the 'criminals' there are NATO+allies and Russia. That the former is fighting a proxy war against the latter via Ukraine,
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NATO is fighting a proxy war against Russia? That's a delusion. That's Russian propaganda, nothing more.
 
Rektsanwalt said:
Yes, that's indeed the message - you got it.

My point being is that while it's fair to criticize UK, US, EU or whatever for what they did wrong in the past (and that's a lot!), it's absolute fair and not immorale or hypocritical to take actions against this unjustifiable attack on Ukraine by Putin's Russia.
It doesn't matter that my country set the world on fire 1939-1945, it does not matter that the UK committed absolute inhumane crimes due to imperial madness or that the US ravaged whole countries just for the sake of gaining political power and oil. These actions against Russia are right. Even coming from countries and entities which have committed atrocities - or even are committing them at this very moment.
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You still aren't getting the point are you ?

Unfortunately it's going to be innocent Ukranians that are going to die for this. Not the US, the UK or the EU. Ukraine is yet another nation caught between the power struggle of the 2.

Anyway back to topic:

Let's hope there's an end in sight.

 
IWat said:
I suggest you look at any election monitoring organisation, either independent or by anyone that isn't Russian.. You will ironically find the interference that was called out, was by Russia.

No one needs to do your own homework. Find your own sources.
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The irony of using the word 'ironically' in your reply. :lol:

Russian interference in Western elections going unpunished because it benefited Trump and BoJo is exactly the kind of thing that emboldened Putin to his actions today. Thank you for making my point.
 
Rightnr said:
I will quote every one of you wannabe communists and ask you to explain yourselves or go away.

Some of you wannabe diplomats would have Ukraine partitioned to satisfy Putler. If that's diplomacy for you, go and live in Mother Russia.
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Jesus Christ
 
Re: Crimea.

I swear if Brexit Britain were to stage a coup in the Republic of Ireland and were then to claim possession of the territory pointing to A) the result of a sham referendum, B) mother tongue demographics of the population, and C) historical ownership of the territory, some would go along with it.

That is exactly what happened in Crimea.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
Unpopular opinion, but I don't think there's any good guys here. It's criminals fighting criminals, and the common citizens paying a price for it. Putin doesn't have the 'western' luxury of social media and news organizations whitewashing his crimes globally, so it's easier to make him the only villain (he is, not questioning that at all). But the US and UK coming in with their holier than thou bullshit and using other countries to fight their proxy wars is a story we've heard all too often. London clearly encourages Russian corruption, and the US and UK have no right to speak about a superpower invading other countries. 'Spreading the seeds of democracy' and 'civilizing territorites' are just more palatable lies than de-Nazifying a nation. In India, we are yet to celebrate our 75th Independence Day - people seem to forget we had to fight our own wars, and lose many lives to force our English colonizers away to achieve the very goals they posture about championing today. Of all pseudo participants in this war, Germany, now sitting pretty atop a European hierarchy, should best remember what happens when you suffocate a proud animal of space, humiliate it on a global stage and back into a corner with only one way out.

I am shocked at the horrors unfolding in Ukraine - it is unprovoked war on civilians. I am by no means condoning Putin's actions - he is committing war crimes and should be punished, and his retaliation to Western isolation could and should have been diplomatic. I also believe democracy is the least of all evils, so will begrudgingly, but always, choose sides that fight for it. But it cannot be denied that the West forced wounded Putin and mowed him into a corner so they could wave their big dick around, and turned blind eye when Russian interference and corrpution suited their domestic interests while Putin gathered power in retaliation. History repeats itself, the roles merely change.

I hope Russia withdraws their troops. I hope Putin sees sense in his losses and takes the diplomatic route, maybe via Ukraine accepting neutrality and a couple of other conditions, so his economy can recover from the mess. I also hope that NATO stops expanding, Germany reveres its decision to strengthen its military, and China doesn't use this incident as a blueprint for Taiwan. Above all, I hope Ukranians can go back home and stop being pawns on a chessboard they could not influence, and stop living through a war that they did not deserve.
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How and by whom should Putin/Russia be punished?

Obviously by your logic everything done so far to stop the war by the "west" shouldn't have been done or should be retracted as they've been very hypocritical due to their past.

Also when can the west do anything in the future to stop a war. Is there a time frame or do they have just standby for as long as we're here on earth?
 
TMDaines said:
If you had posted, what you posted second, first, I’m sure many of us what have had a lot more sympathy. Coming in with sloppy language and a complete lack of awareness for any Ukrainian agency in this was always going to get people’s backs up.
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I don't think either of what you've said is true. The language was quite clear - other posters had no issues understanding context. And I made it abundantly clear in my first post itself that the Ukranian citizens were the undeserving victims who should not have been forced into fighting for survival.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
The irony of using the word 'ironically' in your reply. :lol:

Russian interference in Western elections going unpunished because it benefited Trump and BoJo is exactly the kind of thing that emboldened Putin to his actions today. Thank you for making my point.
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Do you mean the interference that's been called out by numerous Western intelligence agencies?
e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...the-uk-russia-report-say-key-points-explained
e.g. https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/download
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
Unpopular opinion, but I don't think there's any good guys here. It's criminals fighting criminals, and the common citizens paying a price for it. Putin doesn't have the 'western' luxury of social media and news organizations whitewashing his crimes globally, so it's easier to make him the only villain (he is, not questioning that at all). But the US and UK coming in with their holier than thou bullshit and using other countries to fight their proxy wars is a story we've heard all too often. London clearly encourages Russian corruption, and the US and UK have no right to speak about a superpower invading other countries. 'Spreading the seeds of democracy' and 'civilizing territorites' are just more palatable lies than de-Nazifying a nation. In India, we are yet to celebrate our 75th Independence Day - people seem to forget we had to fight our own wars, and lose many lives to force our English colonizers away to achieve the very goals they posture about championing today. Of all pseudo participants in this war, Germany, now sitting pretty atop a European hierarchy, should best remember what happens when you suffocate a proud animal of space, humiliate it on a global stage and back into a corner with only one way out.

I am shocked at the horrors unfolding in Ukraine - it is unprovoked war on civilians. I am by no means condoning Putin's actions - he is committing war crimes and should be punished, and his retaliation to Western isolation could and should have been diplomatic. I also believe democracy is the least of all evils, so will begrudgingly, but always, choose sides that fight for it. But it cannot be denied that the West forced wounded Putin and mowed him into a corner so they could wave their big dick around, and turned blind eye when Russian interference and corrpution suited their domestic interests while Putin gathered power in retaliation. History repeats itself, the roles merely change.

I hope Russia withdraws their troops. I hope Putin sees sense in his losses and takes the diplomatic route, maybe via Ukraine accepting neutrality and a couple of other conditions, so his economy can recover from the mess. I also hope that NATO stops expanding, Germany reveres its decision to strengthen its military, and China doesn't use this incident as a blueprint for Taiwan. Above all, I hope Ukranians can go back home and stop being pawns on a chessboard they could not influence, and stop living through a war that they did not deserve.
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What a load of fecking shite.

Get the feck out of here with this apologist bullshit for a toxic dictator that has done everything in his power to destabilise the entire developed World and funded up and supported the rise of the far-right across Europe as well as meddling in U.S elections and turning America against itself as well meddling in Brexit - 2 acts that on their own should equal him being taken out.

Let alone how he has treated his own subjects and repressed their opportunities and freedoms.

The guy has caused more instability in the developed world than anyone else in recent times and is clearly completely out of control.

Seriously apologist views on him can get fecked, and stay fecked.
 
ShoePolish said:
Christ sake man, I've made my point couple of times now - Crimea is Ukrainian. Elections were rigged. And lets just pretend they weren't rigged and western media propaganda yada yada - Crimea is still ukrainian. You don't like Ukraine? Leave. You want Russia? Go to Russia then. Crimea is Ukraine, was Ukraine and will be Ukraine. Would you support Serbia taking Kossovo if Serbia sent civilians to populate Kosovo and they would call for a coup within couple of years? Would you acknowledge Russian invasion if they had Russians living in Kiev wanted Russia to come and "peacekeep"? Are you not asking yourself, why the hell are the population in Ukraine, if they don't want to be in Ukraine? Russian border ain't that far away.
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Isn't that like saying the Ukranians who didn't want to be under Russian control would have left Crimea to go to Ukraine already?

I disagree with your idea of territory personally, it's problematic. The current people of any region should be able to decide their rulers, if what's left in Crimea want to be ruled by Russia then they should have that freedom. The issue is we'll never know as no way will Russia put up with independent monitoring to ensure a fair election.
 
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