Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Foxbatt said:
But giving Ukraine the options of having nukes and missiles from the USA and NATO on Russian borders would be unacceptable to them as much as nuclear missile in Cuba.
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No one has intended on putting nukes in Ukraine. The Cuban Missile Crisis comparison fails at that hurdle.


There are other NATO member countries on Russia's border already so it would not set a precedent.

Ukraine is a democracy and not a dictatorship.

This has been done to death.
 
TheReligion said:
What would it take for Russia to say enough is enough and relive Putin?

I appreciate a coup would Russia require the military but surely it’s possible?!

The protests I’ve seen in Moscow have been great but more action and pressure is needed from within. I appreciate its easy to say sat here in the UK but the only way is to stick together and unite on this.
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I have no idea, really. It looked like a possibility when there were mass protests in 2010 and the country was so much different. Right now it’s a police state where everything you say can and will lead to dire consequences.

The thing that gives me even a glimpse of hope is how swiftly those changes seem to happen when they actually happen. The thing that makes me depressed that even in Belarus’ and Kazakhstan, where the revolutionary fire had spread all over those countries in a couple of days, the current regimes were able to sustain themselves via the use of brutal force. And Russian police/FSB/military and other institutions that are designed (in our case) to oppress the people & enforce the will of Putin, are much stronger.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Those people are the country, too. They have every right in the world to flee.
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They're the country too and as citizens of it and under martial law they will obey orders or will be forced to do so. This is war, it's the most inhumane thing there is - expect inhumane things to happen. You can not let those men leave the country, from a moral point of view alone. You need to make sure that everybody gets it: it's do or die time, deserting is not an option.
 
Carolina Red said:
I really am shocked sometimes at some folks conception of what a war, especially a war for national survival, entails.
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It feels so incredibly naive. What do people expect when a foreign superpower invades? From the ukranian perspective, this is the fight for existence and it seems like most of the ukranian people have understood that, hence their government officials, prominent stars and the likes stay and take up arms.
 
Paxi said:
@harms what you think that mandate is - to call up medical staff? Sent that to my cousin, in Tver, he doesn’t seem to know. He said: “We in uncharted territory” - which didn’t fill me with confidence. Surely Putin isn’t really preparing for the worst possible outcome?
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I’m not sure why would they need gynecologists and pediatricians but yeah, it looks like they haven’t fully assessed the potential damage initially.
 
Honestly, you might as well concede and completely stop the defence if you'd let those men desert. The morale impact would be so devastating...and the people fighting need to feel bound by fate and camaraderie and solidarity. It's the only way of resisting in this situation.
 
Fredo said:
Indeed, I believe European countries can protect themselves without needing to be puppets in the hands of the USA, that is why I fail to see the value of NATO.

Let me give you a small insight as to why Ukraine matters at this very moment:

Ukraine ranks:
1st in Europe in proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores;
2nd place in Europe and 10th place in the world in terms of titanium ore reserves;
2nd place in the world in terms of explored reserves of manganese ores (2.3 billion tons, or 12% of the world's reserves);
2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world (30 billion tons);
2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury ore reserves;
3rd place in Europe (13th place in the world) in shale gas reserves (22 trillion cubic meters)
4th in the world by the total value of natural resources;
7th place in the world in coal reserves (33.9 billion tons)

Ukraine is an important agricultural country:

1st in Europe in terms of arable land area;
3rd place in the world by the area of black soil (25% of world's volume);
1st place in the world in exports of sunflower and sunflower oil;
2nd place in the world in barley production and 4th place in barley exports;
3rd largest producer and 4th largest exporter of corn in the world;
4th largest producer of potatoes in the world;
5th largest rye producer in the world;
5th place in the world in bee production (75,000 tons);
8th place in the world in wheat exports;
9th place in the world in the production of chicken eggs;
16th place in the world in cheese exports.

Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people.

Ukraine is an important industrialized country:

1st in Europe in ammonia production;
Europe's 2nd’s and the world’s 4th largest natural gas pipeline system;
3rd largest in Europe and 8th largest in the world in terms of installed capacity of nuclear power plants;
3rd place in Europe and 11th in the world in terms of rail network length (21,700 km);
3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of locators and locating equipment;
3rd largest iron exporter in the world
4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world;
4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers;
4th place in the world in clay exports
4th place in the world in titanium exports
8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates;
9th place in the world in exports of defence industry products;
10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons).

Despite all the fancy numbers, the Ukrainian people are generally poor, which is a bit weird given all the riches the country has (around 40-45% of the people there are considered poor)

The bolded part is the main issue here. If you roll back the clock to the start of the Syrian War, the war there was all about Gas and nothing else. Studies showed that Syria has a shitload of Gas under its sea, this is why the so called arab spring (mainly funded and supported by the same countries that are part of Nato) extended to Syria.

The idea was to take down the syrian regime and replace it with a pro-usa/nato one (for me they are the same) so a gas pipe can be installed from Syria, passing to Turkey and then to Europe, hence reducing/ending Europe's reliance on Russia to get Gas (you do realize if Russia stops pumping gas to europe it's fecked right?). Putin intervened in Syria (to support a dictator yey!) only when the regime was about to collapse (ISIS were knocking on damascus' door back then), and this changed the whole strategy and the US and the European countries lost the whole project with Turkey (Belgium was one of the top countries selling arms and weapons to different factions there as well)

As a result, most European countries still heavily relies on Russia for Gas supply, forward the clock to this day, it's another war on who gets hold of Ukraine and end up controlling that part and the other resources (Germany and France were against Ukraine joining the NATO in the beginning)

This is not about NATO putting some missiles at the border with Russia, the same happened during the missile crisis in Cuba (when Soviet Union placed missiles there and the US threatened to go for all-out war) and everybody backed down when they came to an agreement, the same will happen with Ukraine now, unfortunately the women and children and soldiers there will die just because the two feckers (US under NATO umbrella and Putin)

The talks between USA and Russia and Nato members about Ukraine resumed a month ago, and looking at the shambolic state the USA is in at the moment (Biden is just bad), Putin took the opportunity and hit first.
All in all, feck both of them, the only loser here is the Ukranian people unfortunately.
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Thank you for providing insight and perspective. It's always important to see both sides of the narrative and realise the pawns (working people, us) in a geo strategic game beyond a single provocateur and 'good' side amidst a history of Russo-Ukraine conflict and cold war dynamics. Heartfelt condolences to all innocent civilians suffering, not just in Ukraine, but other ongoing/recent wars. Systemic oppression, power hungry greed continues to fuel and permeate across the world, as eyes continue to be closed to some conflicts or the military industrial complex continues to fuel them.
 
Rektsanwalt said:
It feels so incredibly naive. What do people expect when a foreign superpower invades? From the ukranian perspective, this is the fight for existence and it seems like most of the ukranian people have understood that, hence their government officials, prominent stars and the likes stay and take up arms.
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Exactly. I mean… damn, I would fully expect the same thing to happen if the US were invaded and fighting for survival.
 
Carolina Red said:
Exactly. I mean… damn, I would fully expect the same thing to happen if the US were invaded and fighting for survival.
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Ask people in any military if they'd want people with no experience of firearms or fundamental military training operating around them and the majority will say no.

If you're going to make them fight, you train them.
 
Rektsanwalt said:
From the ukranian perspective,
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Those people being forced away from their kids are also Ukrainian people with a Ukrainian perspective. Someone mentioned agency, and viewing Ukrainian people as passive, well there is no more strangulation of agency than somehow erasing these people's choice to leave with their families from the picture and justifying it due to martial law. Let's say the people fleeing are a minority. Well, they made their choice and were then told that they had no choice. How is that better for morale? They had already made their decision not to fight for whatever reason (probably because they don't share the same "stay and die at all costs even if you're not a soldier" attitude that other Ukrainians and non-Ukrainians do).
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Apparently it's a law in Ukraine now that 18-60 year old males cannot leave the country. If true, that seems wrong. If people want to stay and fight, that's their choice, and many will, but you shouldn't be forcing people to stay either.
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Agree, it’s completely fecked up and wrong. I feel for them so much, and for every person having their lives ruined for these rich people’s conquests - in whatever conflict.

This whole situation is utterly fecked up and barely believable.
 
Carolina Red said:
Exactly. I mean… damn, I would fully expect the same thing to happen if the US were invaded and fighting for survival.
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If you're in such a dire situation, you really have only one option. It's what almost every living thing does once it's backed into a corner - fight with everything you've got, tooth and nail if necessary. Annihilation is the other option, of course.
You'd expect the US civilians to put up a fight or not put up a fight? I'd definitely expect them to put up a fight like almost no other nation. Especially considering they're armed like no other nation and have nationalists at every corner :lol: :wenger:
In my case for example, here in Germany, I'd expect what some people here are suggesting. We'd give up immediately. Like, hours after fighting, we'd be kind of tired and would like to watch Bundesliga again. Why even fight for freedom. It's a pathetic stance and I hope there's a shift in european attitude towards that. Time and time again, many countries have shown what continuous resistance can do against super powers. Look at Afghanistan and Vietnam for example. Ultimatively, they won because they didn't give in at any time.
 
Rektsanwalt said:
. Look at Afghanistan and Vietnam for example. Ultimatively, they won because they didn't give in at any time.
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In both cases they did not succeed by throwing random civvies in. Even the Taliban trained their members ffs.
 
Rektsanwalt said:
Why even fight for freedom. It's a pathetic stance and I hope there's a shift in european attitude towards that.
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Two wars in a century that destroyed the continent because of different ideas of what "freedom" meant. I hope there is no alteration of the EU attitude on that. What did Europe get from those wars? 100m+ dead people for no good reason, the majority being working or middle class people who died for a higher class interest in political wars (on every side).
 
Fredo said:
Indeed, I believe European countries can protect themselves without needing to be puppets in the hands of the USA, that is why I fail to see the value of NATO.

Let me give you a small insight as to why Ukraine matters at this very moment:

Ukraine ranks:
1st in Europe in proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores;
2nd place in Europe and 10th place in the world in terms of titanium ore reserves;
2nd place in the world in terms of explored reserves of manganese ores (2.3 billion tons, or 12% of the world's reserves);
2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world (30 billion tons);
2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury ore reserves;
3rd place in Europe (13th place in the world) in shale gas reserves (22 trillion cubic meters)
4th in the world by the total value of natural resources;
7th place in the world in coal reserves (33.9 billion tons)

Ukraine is an important agricultural country:

1st in Europe in terms of arable land area;
3rd place in the world by the area of black soil (25% of world's volume);
1st place in the world in exports of sunflower and sunflower oil;
2nd place in the world in barley production and 4th place in barley exports;
3rd largest producer and 4th largest exporter of corn in the world;
4th largest producer of potatoes in the world;
5th largest rye producer in the world;
5th place in the world in bee production (75,000 tons);
8th place in the world in wheat exports;
9th place in the world in the production of chicken eggs;
16th place in the world in cheese exports.

Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people.

Ukraine is an important industrialized country:

1st in Europe in ammonia production;
Europe's 2nd’s and the world’s 4th largest natural gas pipeline system;
3rd largest in Europe and 8th largest in the world in terms of installed capacity of nuclear power plants;
3rd place in Europe and 11th in the world in terms of rail network length (21,700 km);
3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of locators and locating equipment;
3rd largest iron exporter in the world
4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world;
4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers;
4th place in the world in clay exports
4th place in the world in titanium exports
8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates;
9th place in the world in exports of defence industry products;
10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons).

Despite all the fancy numbers, the Ukrainian people are generally poor, which is a bit weird given all the riches the country has (around 40-45% of the people there are considered poor)

The bolded part is the main issue here. If you roll back the clock to the start of the Syrian War, the war there was all about Gas and nothing else. Studies showed that Syria has a shitload of Gas under its sea, this is why the so called arab spring (mainly funded and supported by the same countries that are part of Nato) extended to Syria.

The idea was to take down the syrian regime and replace it with a pro-usa/nato one (for me they are the same) so a gas pipe can be installed from Syria, passing to Turkey and then to Europe, hence reducing/ending Europe's reliance on Russia to get Gas (you do realize if Russia stops pumping gas to europe it's fecked right?). Putin intervened in Syria (to support a dictator yey!) only when the regime was about to collapse (ISIS were knocking on damascus' door back then), and this changed the whole strategy and the US and the European countries lost the whole project with Turkey (Belgium was one of the top countries selling arms and weapons to different factions there as well)

As a result, most European countries still heavily relies on Russia for Gas supply, forward the clock to this day, it's another war on who gets hold of Ukraine and end up controlling that part and the other resources (Germany and France were against Ukraine joining the NATO in the beginning)

This is not about NATO putting some missiles at the border with Russia, the same happened during the missile crisis in Cuba (when Soviet Union placed missiles there and the US threatened to go for all-out war) and everybody backed down when they came to an agreement, the same will happen with Ukraine now, unfortunately the women and children and soldiers there will die just because the two feckers (US under NATO umbrella and Putin)

The talks between USA and Russia and Nato members about Ukraine resumed a month ago, and looking at the shambolic state the USA is in at the moment (Biden is just bad), Putin took the opportunity and hit first.
All in all, feck both of them, the only loser here is the Ukranian people unfortunately.
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..

You don't see the point of NATO? Apart from Europe gaining protection at the expense of the US there is the small matter of Russia invading non-NATO members around them.

What have the Romans ever done for us?
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Those people being forced away from their kids are also Ukrainian people with a Ukrainian perspective. Someone mentioned agency, and viewing Ukrainian people as passive, well there is no more strangulation of agency than somehow erasing these people's choice to leave with their families from the picture and justifying it due to martial law. Let's say the people fleeing are a minority. Well, they made their choice and were then told that they had no choice. How is that better for morale? They had already made their decision not to fight for whatever reason (probably because they don't share the same "stay and die at all costs even if you're not a soldier" attitude that other Ukrainians and non-Ukrainians do).
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When I said ukranian perspective, I meant some kind of ukranian meta perspective, as in: not an individual's perspective. It is better for morale, as the fighting troops see that the government does everything it can to keep its people together. I mean, you're risking your live out there for exactly those people and they turn their backs on you? It'd feel like this, even more hopeless. Also, they do not necessarily need to fight in the streets, but they might be critical for infrastructure and logistics, doing heavy duty jobs without directly risking their necks. Every one is needed.
 
Rektsanwalt said:
If you're in such a dire situation, you really have only one option. It's what almost every living thing does once it's backed into a corner - fight with everything you've got, tooth and nail if necessary. Annihilation is the other option, of course.
You'd expect the US civilians to put up a fight or not put up a fight? I'd definitely expect them to put up a fight like almost no other nation. Especially considering they're armed like no other nation and have nationalists at every corner :lol: :wenger:
In my case for example, here in Germany, I'd expect what some people here are suggesting. We'd give up immediately. Like, hours after fighting, we'd be kind of tired and would like to watch Bundesliga again. Why even fight for freedom. It's a pathetic stance and I hope there's a shift in european attitude towards that. Time and time again, many countries have shown what continuous resistance can do against super powers. Look at Afghanistan and Vietnam for example. Ultimatively, they won because they didn't give in at any time.
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:lol: I would like to live in Germany in case of a world war then.
 
Rektsanwalt said:
If you're in such a dire situation, you really have only one option. It's what almost every living thing does once it's backed into a corner - fight with everything you've got, tooth and nail if necessary. Annihilation is the other option, of course.
You'd expect the US civilians to put up a fight or not put up a fight? I'd definitely expect them to put up a fight like almost no other nation. Especially considering they're armed like no other nation and have nationalists at every corner :lol: :wenger:
In my case for example, here in Germany, I'd expect what some people here are suggesting. We'd give up immediately. Like, hours after fighting, we'd be kind of tired and would like to watch Bundesliga again. Why even fight for freedom. It's a pathetic stance and I hope there's a shift in european attitude towards that. Time and time again, many countries have shown what continuous resistance can do against super powers. Look at Afghanistan and Vietnam for example. Ultimatively, they won because they didn't give in at any time.
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To be fair the war such as this (when you're being invaded or the enemy is at your doorstep) it's never about choices, it's about that spurn of patriotism and camaraderie in the midst of the situation. I believe ask them 3 years before war breaks the Aghans and Vietnamese prefers to just stay back and be with their family, but sometimes war comes to you whether you're ready or not, loved one being killed, your village got destroyed, and all that's left is to fight.

We've seen in history people rode to their death, even when it's suicidal for the sake of values that may differ from one another, maybe for us that never serve on the front line we'll never be able to understand.
 
Wibble said:
Bet they did at the start.
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Nope. Taliban and Al-Qaeda trained their members even before 2001. One of the big reasons for the invasion was to supposedly destroy the training camps.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Two wars in a century that destroyed the continent because of different ideas of what "freedom" meant. I hope there is no alteration of the EU attitude on that. What did Europe get from those wars? 100m+ dead people for no good reason, the majority being working or middle class people who died for a higher class interest in political wars (on every side).
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On the grand scheme of things, Europe got peace in the form of EU.

For a continent that's been at war between one another for hundreds of years that's something.
 
Rektsanwalt said:
When I said ukranian perspective, I meant some kind of ukranian meta perspective, as in: not an individual's perspective. It is better for morale, as the fighting troops see that the government does everything it can to keep its people together. I mean, you're risking your live out there for exactly those people and they turn their backs on you? It'd feel like this, even more hopeless. Also, they do not necessarily need to fight in the streets, but they might be critical for infrastructure and logistics, doing heavy duty jobs without directly risking their necks. Every one is needed.
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Ultimately it's all a Ukrainian matter and we're just commenting on it. It's fecked up whatever way you look at it. No good solutions when the best case scenario involves a protracted insurgency that will kill scores of thousands of people and turn Ukraine into a hellhole. Anyway, this law is the one gripe I've had with the Ukrainian response so far. Otherwise, it seems they have it together.
 
Carolina Red said:
I really am shocked sometimes at some folks conception of what a war, especially a war for national survival, entails.
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If I search my soul I can’t really fault those who will not fight. I would likely be one of them. It is not cowardice, at least I don’t think it is. I have no wish do die, but I don’t think I would balk at giving my life to protect those I love. But for a country? I don’t know. The big issue though is killing. I am just as confident that I would not be able to pull a trigger, not to protect myself, my loved ones, and certainly not to protect a country. Others roles I would do, but not kill. I believe it is wrong to put someone in that position.
 
Beans said:
Most of the 18-60 year olds in Ukraine will die if fighting continues?!

Seems an extreme prediction.
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Look at what happened to the male Soviet population during WW2. Not saying it will happen here but if that's the route they take.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Two wars in a century that destroyed the continent because of different ideas of what "freedom" meant. I hope there is no alteration of the EU attitude on that. What did Europe get from those wars? 100m+ dead people for no good reason, the majority being working or middle class people who died for a higher class interest in political wars (on every side).
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We got the longest period of peace by that and prosperity, wealth and a live worth living while eastern Europe and the former soviet countries still suffer from the consequences of being part of the eastern block by having had those two wars. Arch enemies, France, Germany, now being closest allies. We've got the european union - we have reliable partners, mostly. We have understood that war on european soil is nothing to be repeated. It's quite a bit and while it was bought with a lot of blood, it was worth it. 100m people dead for no good reason? There were many damn good reasons for Europe to experience such a total war in order to understand that this must never be repeated.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Ultimately it's all a Ukrainian matter and we're just commenting on it. It's fecked up whatever way you look at it. No good solutions when the best case scenario involves a protracted insurgency that will kill scores of thousands of people and turn Ukraine into a hellhole. Anyway, this law is the one gripe I've had with the Ukrainian response so far. Otherwise, it seems they have it together.
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Tried to PM you but can’t, thanks for your posts on this!
 
IWat said:
Ask people in any military if they'd want people with no experience of firearms or fundamental military training operating around them and the majority will say no.

If you're going to make them fight, you train them.
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And yet military history has shown us time and time again that people have taken up arms, fought as an insurgency, and “learned on the job” to defeat a foreign invader.

It’s also worth pointing out… the Ukrainian military was party to the creation of this Ukrainian defense plan.
 
IWat said:
Nope. Taliban and Al-Qaeda trained their members even before 2001. One of the big reasons for the invasion was to supposedly destroy the training camps.
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There's a long history of civilians becoming battle-hardened combatants in these kinds of wars. You don't necessarily need military training to help the war effort, you can pick it up as you go along if you manage to live. The French resistance were not all battle trained. Many were academics. The same in the Spanish civil war. I still don't agree with it, but I can see how it is useful if everyone agrees that a long-term insurgency is the best course of action.
Rektsanwalt said:
We got the longest period of peace by that and prosperity, wealth and a live worth living while eastern Europe and the former soviet countries still suffer from the consequences of being part of the eastern block by having had those two wars. Arch enemies, France, Germany, now being closest allies. We've got the european union - we have reliable partners, mostly. We have understood that war on european soil is nothing to be repeated. It's quite a bit and while it was bought with a lot of blood, it was worth it. 100m people dead for no good reason? There were many damn good reasons for Europe to experience such a total war in order to understand that this must never be repeated.
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The first war was literally pointless. The second was a response to murderous dictators who used lower class people to further their own ideologies. It's always lower class people who fight these wars, and that's a big problem.
 
Carolina Red said:
And yet military history has shown us time and time again that people have taken up arms, fought as an insurgency, and “learned on the job” to defeat a foreign invader.

It’s also worth pointing out… the Ukrainian military was party to the creation of this Ukrainian defense plan.
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With absolutely no training? I don't think there is anything in recent history. Soviets gave typically a few weeks to conscripts, North Vietnam 3 months etc etc
 
WI_Red said:
If I search my soul I can’t really fault those who will not fight. I would likely be one of them. It is not cowardice, at least I don’t think it is. I have no wish do die, but I don’t think I would balk at giving my life to protect those I love. But for a country? I don’t know. The big issue though is killing. I am just as confident that I would not be able to pull a trigger, not to protect myself, my loved ones, and certainly not to protect a country. Others roles I would do, but not kill. I believe it is wrong to put someone in that position.
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The Russians have put them in that position.
 
gorky_utd said:
:lol: I would like to live in Germany in case of a world war then.
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Oh no, in case of a full scale world war, you wouldn't want to live here. Bar maybe Washington, most parts of Germany would be top priority targets, as a lot of NATO coordination is done here. In case of a full scale (nuclear) war, we'd be one of the first countries that seizes to exist.

Sky1981 said:
To be fair the war such as this (when you're being invaded or the enemy is at your doorstep) it's never about choices, it's about that spurn of patriotism and camaraderie in the midst of the situation. I believe ask them 3 years before war breaks the Aghans and Vietnamese prefers to just stay back and be with their family, but sometimes war comes to you whether you're ready or not, loved one being killed, your village got destroyed, and all that's left is to fight.

We've seen in history people rode to their death, even when it's suicidal for the sake of values that may differ from one another, maybe for us that never serve on the front line we'll never be able to understand.
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I really hope we will never have to really understand - but thinking about it at this moment, I would not want to leave my country, as it's my place to live. It's not just an abstract entity, it's my family, my people, my ground and soil and my way of life. And it's damn worth fighting for this. In case of war and if I have the feeling that war would come at me anyways, I'd like to think that I'd enlist willingly, making sure to get into a unit where others are that weren't just forced, but share my sentiment.

Mciahel Goodman said:
Ultimately it's all a Ukrainian matter and we're just commenting on it. It's fecked up whatever way you look at it. No good solutions when the best case scenario involves a protracted insurgency that will kill scores of thousands of people and turn Ukraine into a hellhole. Anyway, this law is the one gripe I've had with the Ukrainian response so far. Otherwise, it seems they have it together.
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It definitely is fecked up. War is fecked up. The world is fecked up. I mean, look at us: 2 years of pandemic, harsh consequences and the biggest crisis humanity has seen since 1945 and now another crisis which will change geopolitics for our whole life, mostly. But fortunately, I do not think that we're on the verge of a full scale WW3. Here in central Europe, lying in my bed and while not being able to sleep due to having COVID, we could basically live our every day life if we didn't know what was happening there. But we do know and my biggest grudge is the inability of my country and the EU to help the Ukraine. I am deeply ashamed by my country's reaction and once I recovered (been in the hospital for a week, so might take some time) I hope I can at least go to protests that call for better aid for the ukranian people.
 
IWat said:
With absolutely no training? I don't think there is anything in recent history. Soviets gave typically a few weeks to conscripts, North Vietnam 3 months etc etc
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It's rather hard to have a training class when the enemy is already in your country.
 
IWat said:
With absolutely no training? I don't think there is anything in recent history. Soviets gave typically a few weeks to conscripts, North Vietnam 3 months etc etc
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You realize that they’ll be training them on the march, right? I literally said “learning on the job”. You can teach a man to aim and shoot well enough to function in a dug in firing line in a few hours. That’s what they’ll be asked to do, not high level fire and maneuver.
 
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