Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Kostov said:
It absolutely does not, but one doing what it does (invading countries such as Iraq, Afghanistan and many many more, bombing Jugoslavia is another example) gives the excuse for Russia to do what it wants. And in my honest opinion the first does it in much much worse way.
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There's people that still believe stopping Milosevic was immoral or wrong?
 
CassiusClaymore said:
I remember reading this article 6 years ago, post Brexit. It's scarily prescient in sentiment if not detail...

https://tswriting.medium.com/histor...ext-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714#.wzt9rnppl
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Scary to think this was planned by Russia all this time and it doesn't feel they'll stop with Ukraine. It's ironic that people who were anti-EU and worked to actively weaken the EU will now point to the EU needing a stronger response to this.

That being said, maybe this will strengthen pro-EU sentiment and a need to have a stronger EU to counter any future larger ambitions or Putin into Europe.
 
Kostov said:
If a warmonger pact like NATO wants to put weapons and troops and what not on your own border I think someone is preparing to attack you. NATO has been doing that for 70 years without regards. The last time the Russians tried the same in Cuba, the US threatened war. So how is this any different??



Probably chilling somewhere like I do now.



Who sells the weapons to Ukraine and NATO? Are you from Mars?


Yes he has, but he is not fighting and dying the ordinary soldiers of both sides do. Putin is no better, but much more straight forward than piece of garbage like Bidden and the lunatic sitting in London.



Russia does not want NATO on it's doorstep end of. It gives them the reason to defend their interest the same way the US defended theirs when Russia wanted to put missiles in Cuba. I was born and live in Macedonia, felt the NATO and western hypocrisy when I was 6 and NATO bombed Jugoslavia, bombed Belgrade where my cousins live where they had to run for their lives. The same NATO helped and armed Albanian terrorist 2 years later to kill Macedonian policemen and civilians.
And Ukraine helped my country in 2001, so I have only gratitude for the people of Ukraine. We have felt war and the loss it brings, what happens now saddens me, but we have been living in this shitty world for too long to pretend all is black and white.
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Uf of, we have a lunatic here.

Who also doesn’t know much of history, it when do lunatics know anything.
 
Kostov said:
Russia does not want NATO on it's doorstep end of. It gives them the reason to defend their interest the same way the US defended theirs when Russia wanted to put missiles in Cuba. I was born and live in Macedonia, felt the NATO and western hypocrisy when I was 6 and NATO bombed Jugoslavia, bombed Belgrade where my cousins live where they had to run for their lives. The same NATO helped and armed Albanian terrorist 2 years later to kill Macedonian policemen and civilians.
And Ukraine helped my country in 2001, so I have only gratitude for the people of Ukraine. We have felt war and the loss it brings, what happens now saddens me, but we have been living in this shitty world for too long to pretend all is black and white.
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Two wrongs doesn't make it right.

We can't excuse what Russia is doing now due to NATO wrongdoings in the past.
 
MadMike said:
There's people that still believe stopping Milosevic was immoral or wrong?
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Stopping Milosevic was not their priority, installing a client state like Kosovo, to this day the center of all criminal enterprise on the Balkans was. Why didn't they stop the war criminals that were doing the same on the other side?
 
Buster15 said:
Mark down this day in your diaries and in history. The day that the West decided to not do anything to stop the fall of Ukraine back into Russian rule.
It failed to do anything to stop the fall of Crimea and that has led directly to this situation.
We in the West are going to have to wake up and decide what our future is going to be. A coward or a lion.

We all know from history what appeasement ends up with.
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What do you suggest they do?
 
Buster15 said:
Mark down this day in your diaries and in history. The day that the West decided to not do anything to stop the fall of Ukraine back into Russian rule.
It failed to do anything to stop the fall of Crimea and that has led directly to this situation.
We in the West are going to have to wake up and decide what our future is going to be. A coward or a lion.

We all know from history what appeasement ends up with.
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On one hand we are called war mongerers when ever we intervene and critized for not intervening. Having a hot war with Russia is the most dangerous scenario since the cold war.
 
Kostov said:
Stopping Milosevic was not their priority, installing a client state like Kosovo, to this day the center of all criminal enterprise on the Balkans was. Why didn't they stop the war criminals that were doing the same on the other side?
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Can you please go into Balkans thread and masturbate there with some photos of Serbian forces killing 12 thousand people in Kosovo?
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I imagine installation of a puppet government in Ukraine and turning it into an effective client state for Russia. Trying to create another Belarus, basically. Ukraine isn't Belarus though.
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Ok. Fair enough.

They've tried installing prorussian government for years now, succedeed at times....

Aparantly they've grown tired of that and just winged it - feck it, let's take them. The West won't do a fecking thing.

And - it seems they're right.
 
slyadams said:
The doctrine of mutually assured destruction protects a rogue actor from doing some crazy shit. I'm not convinced Russia invading a NATO member would result in all out war. Some might call it weak, but I think the west would recognize the catastrophe that would result in all out war with Russia. The only way for there to be real change in Russia is from within, and it can't be western driven, there has to be a Russian inception to make a profound and lasting change.
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There's a lot of room between a war on some foreign soil and dropping nuclear bombs on each other. As long as US troops don't land on Russian soil or vice versa I'm pretty confident both sides will keep their fingers off the red button, they managed it for 50 years after World War 2. Any NATO involvement would be limited to driving the Russian military back into Russia.

There is also China in all of this, who will weirdly be acting as peacekeeper.
 
DickDastardly said:
Does anyone, including the all knowing US intelligence knows - WHAT excatly is Putin's end game here?

Were there any kind of predictions made?
What, he want's Ukraine and that's it?

What the feck does he want with it? Half of it?

He's probably aware that at least the economic sanctions are coming his way? Although that is a question, seeing how the western leaders are fluffing about.

So, i ask again - what is his end game?
Just a show of strenght?
Is he dying soon so he want's to go off with his boots on? What?
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The guy is fecking insane. The twitching right eye kind of insane. I don't think he even knows what his end game is.
 
DickDastardly said:
To be completely fair - 8 years too late!

I'll say it again, you either ACT now or you don't act at all.
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fecking obvious. It is always like this with the dictators, be him Hitler, Milosevic and Putin.

The more you pretend that all is good, the more brutal they’ll become. The time to stop them is at the beginning.
 
TheLiverBird said:
Its a horrible situation, the Russian army is just doing their job, they too want too go home too their families. It’s their leader that needs wacking, that sadly won’t happen, and instead thousands of Russians and Ukrainians will die.
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War is young men dying and old men talking.

That being said it’s difficult for me to have sympathy with any Russian troops here
 
Enigma_87 said:
Two wrongs doesn't make it right.

We can't excuse what Russia is doing now due to NATO wrongdoings in the past.
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It does not I agree, but it's not in the past, NATO just pulled out of Afghanistan and their policy is still the same. Just give it time, but please don't try and paint it all like it's behind us. The whole Middle East is a mess, Lybia is what not? People are still dying because of that.
 
If 2/3 of the entire active Russian army is now deployed full scale, they better do it fast, topple the current gov and retreat? The longer it goes, the more it exposes both their other flanks (China’s cheeky aggression from the right?) and the Russian population uneasiness about this war (most of them are just tired, peaceful, interconnected with fellow ukrainians and the world, aiming at better living standards?). I am not a military expert at all, but the best path for the locals after such full scale invasions, also from recent history, is activate insurgence and make the occupants bleed day after day, for months or years? I am not sure Putin can do much more than what we are seeing just now, without losing his shirt in a few weeks or months?
 
Buster15 said:
Mark down this day in your diaries and in history. The day that the West decided to not do anything to stop the fall of Ukraine back into Russian rule.
It failed to do anything to stop the fall of Crimea and that has led directly to this situation.
We in the West are going to have to wake up and decide what our future is going to be. A coward or a lion.

We all know from history what appeasement ends up with.
Click to expand...

You'd personally take weapons and go fight Russians in Ukraine? Cause if not, then it all sounds very hollow.

Also, I'm not sure I like the West playing World Police. We haven't done particularly well at that. Protect our own and use diplomatic and financial means to apply pressure to countries that don't play well.
 
Kostov said:
Stopping Milosevic was not their priority, installing a client state like Kosovo, to this day the center of all criminal enterprise on the Balkans was. Why didn't they stop the war criminals that were doing the same on the other side?
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This is quite frankly all lies and propaganda fueled by those who dont want to accept the truth of their own crimes. The Serbians committed 5x the amount of war crimes compared to other parties in the multiple conflicts they were involved in. They literally tried to wipe out ethnic groups, the Bosnian Serbs being the worst in this regard.
 
Revan said:
fecking obvious. It is always like this with the dictators, be him Hitler, Milosevic and Putin.

The more you pretend that all is good, the more brutal they’ll become. The time to stop them is at the beginning.
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We live in an imperfect world. We can't just go and topple Putin. Especially not when he has nukes.
 
Bepi said:
If 2/3 of the entire active Russian army is now deployed full scale, they better do it fast, topple the current gov and retreat? The longer it goes, the more it exposes both their other flanks (China’s cheeky aggression from the right?) and the Russian population uneasiness about this war (most of them are just tired, peaceful, interconnected with fellow ukrainians and the world, aiming at better living standards?). I am not a military expert at all, but the best path for the locals after such full scale invasions, also from recent history, is activate insurgence and make the occupants bleed day after day, for months or years? I am not sure Putin can do much more than what we are seeing just now, without losing his shirt in a few weeks or months?
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China is not attacking Russia.

The best thing for China is for the war to continue as long as possible. Even better if NATO actively helps Ukraine (as long as nukes do not start flying).
 
Buster15 said:
This isn't about the US and EU. It is about NATO forces and they are part of NATO.
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It is about the US and EU. Because the countries mentioned are part of the EU, they are part of the EU territory, how and why foreign troops are deployed within that territory during crisis is vitally important. To suggest that EU members have no say is very dubious, especially when all EU members have a mutual defense agreement and are already part of the CSDP.
 
Gehrman said:
We live in an imperfect world. We can't just go and topple Putin. Especially not when he has nukes.
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Russia should have been put into total embargo in 2008. He would have been ousted from Russian people soon after, similar to the fall of Soviet Union.

Now the best bet is to force a new Cold War which cripples Russia economically. But it is far harder than 14 years ago.
 
MadMike said:
You'd personally take weapons and go fight Russians in Ukraine? Cause if not, then it all sounds very hollow.

Also, I'm not sure I like the West playing World Police. We haven't done particularly well at that. Protect our own and use diplomatic and financial means to apply pressure to countries that don't play well.
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If my country was being invaded I would be very happy for the west playing world police.
 
Kostov said:
I know much more history than you I bet.
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i think anyone with any kind of knowledge of history does not justify what is happening now with what’s happened in the past. history is just pointless otherwise.
 
sport2793 said:
This is quite frankly all lies and propaganda fueled by those who dont want to accept the truth of their own crimes. The Serbians committed 5x the amount of war crimes compared to other parties in the multiple conflicts they were involved in. They literally tried to wipe out ethnic groups, the Bosnian Serbs being the worst in this regard.
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You are aware that Serbians and Bosnian Serbs is not the same thing ? I think you meant Serbs, not Serbians.
 
Revan said:
Russia should have been put into total embargo in 2008. He would have been ousted from Russian people soon after, similar to the fall of Soviet Union.

Now the best bet is to force a new Cold War which cripples Russia economically. But it is far harder than 14 years ago.
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China has his back. The cold war never ended for them and they are growing as a power.
 
rimaldo said:
i think anyone with any kind of knowledge of history does not justify what is happening now with what’s happened in the past. history is just pointless otherwise.
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People have been ignoring history far too long, that's why we are here. The same mistakes are done on repeat which is sad.
 
Gehrman said:
We live in an imperfect world. We can't just go and topple Putin. Especially not when he has nukes.
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You don’t need to topple him. There just needed to be sanctions on the oligarchs that prop him up and not when it’s too late and he’s already started a war. Those oligarchs should have been under sanctions and lifing uncomfortably for the last 8 years
 
Can we please do the Balkan discussion under Balkan’s thread? I am more than happy to debunk the points of Kostov and Serbian fellas, as I have done in the past.

@Raoul, @Wibble, can we please enforce discussing about Ukraine war in the Ukraine thread?
 
DickDastardly said:
Does anyone, including the all knowing US intelligence knows - WHAT excatly is Putin's end game here?

Were there any kind of predictions made?
What, he want's Ukraine and that's it?

What the feck does he want with it? Half of it?

He's probably aware that at least the economic sanctions are coming his way? Although that is a question, seeing how the western leaders are fluffing about.

So, i ask again - what is his end game?
Just a show of strenght?
Is he dying soon so he want's to go off with his boots on? What?
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That is something what everybody are thinking now.
I don't see any logic in this attack. Russia will pay huge price for this. Reputation is ruined, economy will suffer, war cost money, people in Russia will be unhappy...and for what? He will show power, destroy Ukraine's military and stall Ukraine's progress in EU and Nato. When Putin stops being president, there is high chance that new president will go in different way and leave Ukraine alone.
People say that he wants to put pro-Russian leader in Ukraine. How? How that can work? Ukraine's people will never accept that. And neither Europe will.

Putin completely shattered his and Russia reputation with this invasion.
 
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