Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Revan said:
It absolutely is. Go compare the change in regimes after the elections in Kosovo, and compare it with Macedonia when thugs almost killed Zaev and co. Go check the freedom of independent media in Kosovo where every prime minister is attacked all the time, and compare it with Serbia's where Vucic has every relevant media under control.
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I think this thread has fallen a bit off the track, even through all this is more connected to Kosovo than people realize.

However... There are N1 and Nova, which are pretty big and not under Vucic. Vucic has a string of tabloids that he controls + a few of the biggest TV stations, but not all.
 
Can everyone take a bit of responsibility with what they post? If something you've posted is then shown to be false, please edit your post and put the more accurate info there. It is becoming pretty clear now that despite the Russian invasion, the reports of Ukraine's demise (so far) have been somewhat exaggerated.
 
Kostov said:
It is not, however I don't think the death toll is even close to that of the Western "democracy" is it? And I don't think it's an excuse just people and their hipocricy is laughable.
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It isn't really a competition is it? Either aggressor should be held responsible and accountable for war crimes. It's not like USA aren't always in the top bracket in terms of invading other countries, but in this case it makes zero sense to drag other historical names into the conflict.
 
For those more knowledgeable about business and economics than myself, let's say that Russia's endgame here is to take Kyiv and appoint a pro Russian puppet government or even just annexing them into Russia entirely. In economic terms, will taking Ukraine be enough to offset whatever financial losses come about as a result of sanctions and refusals to do business with Russia and what not?
 
Hound Dog said:
I think this thread has fallen a bit off the track, even through all this is more connected to Kosovo than people realize.

However... There are N1 and Nova, which are pretty big and not under Vucic. Vucic has a string of tabloids that he controls + a few of the biggest TV stations, but not all.
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It really isn't.

Does anyone really think that Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Kosovo did not happen? I mean, come on, are people really believing that horseshit?
 
Kostov said:
If a warmonger pact like NATO
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NATO is a warmonger?

Wasn't NATO created to counter Russian aggression? The same Russians that are now invading a sovereign democratic country because they want to join NATO.
 
Putin is a complete nutjob.

The sooner he's gone the better it is for everyone.
 
TheLiverBird said:
Its not so much having sympathy, but more understanding they are are just soldiers doing their jobs like their Ukrainian adversaries, and for that…I’ll be taking no pleasure from hearing of Russian Soldiers being killed in combat.

Sadly it’s a necessity though, the Ukrainians will defend themselves and damn rightly so.
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I will not take pleasure, but at the same time I will not feel any sympathy either. Understanding or not, they are still the direct aggressors here, and innocent people are dying because of them. They are the ones holding the guns and driving the tanks. Soldiers doing their jobs doesn't excuse the acts they commit, which holds true for anyone in any military service in the world.

At least we both agree that it is a necessity.
 
Revan said:
It really isn't.

Does anyone really think that Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Kosovo did not happen? I mean, come on, are people really believing that horseshit?
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You can see a clear shift in how he has behaved since 2008. It started with Georgia and continued here.
 
JPRouve said:
You see, that's what I suspected and why I had an issue with your post, that part is wrong. These Baltic countries are part of the EU territory, they are part of the internal borders of the EU, part of the common security and defense policy, every member of the EU has a mutual defense clause with one another. The EU have never been just an economic union and the EU whehter you are talking about the largest members or the institution isn't irrelevant when it comes to security concerns.
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It's called a Mutual Defense clause in the treaty but it isn't actually such a thing as it talks of unspecified 'aid and assistance' and effectively defers to national defence policies: "This [clause] shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States."

It also says that NATO commitments have primacy over any EU mutual defence (the Eastern European countries would not have signed up otherwise):
"Commitments and cooperation in this area shall be consistent with commitments under the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which, for those States which are members of it, remains the foundation of their collective defence and the forum for its implementation."
 
Gehrman said:
On one hand we are called war mongerers when ever we intervene and critized for not intervening. Having a hot war with Russia is the most dangerous scenario since the cold war.
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The most dangerous scenario is appeasement.
 
Enigma_87 said:
It isn't really a competition is it? Either aggressor should be held responsible and accountable for war crimes. It's not like USA aren't always in the top bracket in terms of invading other countries, but in this case it makes zero sense to drag other historical names into the conflict.
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Don't you think the judge and executioner need to have some credibility in order to be takes seriously. I agree that Russia should be held responsible but by who?
 
JPRouve said:
What it means is that the member states have that obligation which is what matters. A simple example that is already kind of tried and tested is that first you would have France with the quick offensive power while Germany provides logistical support that's something that can happen within hours even if the EUFOR wasn't involved but in reality it wouldn't be just them because what at has happened over the years is that EU members armies have been working and training together regularly. It's not that different from NATO.
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It's hugely different from NATO. Apples and oranges.
 
Cloud7 said:
For those more knowledgeable about business and economics than myself, let's say that Russia's endgame here is to take Kyiv and appoint a pro Russian puppet government or even just annexing them into Russia entirely. In economic terms, will taking Ukraine be enough to offset whatever financial losses come about as a result of sanctions and refusals to do business with Russia and what not?
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I don't even think the biggest economics masterminds in the world could answer that.

I doubt that Putin has an excel spreadsheet to see if he's gaining or losing money on this.

This is purely a "feck you" to the West and "let's see who blinks first" kind of operation.
I doubt that anybody is thinking about economics.

*except the Swiss and the Italians, and the Germans,....etc.*
That why we have what we have. A mild pussy fart reaction from the West. Mostly Twitter warriors.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
It's hugely different from NATO. Apples and oranges.
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I'm talking about the hurdles, they are similar. NATO has a unit isn't particularly helpful, it's about the response of the main members and their potency.
 
Hound Dog said:
You can see a clear shift in how he has behaved since 2008. It started with Georgia and continued here.
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I think it has more to do with Russia becoming stronger and Putin starting to lose 'the heart' of Russian people, forcing him to make wars so he can stay in power.

A non-exhaustive list of differences between South Ossetia/Abkhazia/Crimea/Ukraine and Kosovo: tens of thousands of people were not killed, half of population of those countries was not sent into exile, there were no peace agreements (like Rambouillet), there was no dialogue, like Ahtisari and later troika talks. There also was not a verdict of international court of justice, that legitimized the independence of those countries. All of these happened in Kosovo case.

And the big one: Kosovo is not part of the US, unlike Crimea.

At best, you could say that Kosovo gave a justification to Putin. But Putin does what Putin wants in any case. He would have acted exactly the same even without Kosovo. We saw how Russia went to trouble of making all these false flag operations to justify entering Ukraine. When Ukraine did not respond to provocations, Russia just said feck it, and invaded anyway.
 
I think the bigger message Putin is sending is that the West doesn't care about any of you (Non NATO), so you better be good to Mother Russia or war it is.

Symbolically the West sitting out has a bigger ramifications
 
JPRouve said:
I'm talking about the hurdles, they are similar. NATO has a unit isn't particularly helpful, it's about the response of the main members and their potency.
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NATO operates a central command structure that would direct military operations in the event of attack on a member state in Europe. It's the whole point of the organistaion.

I'm not sure you really understand the structure of NATO (and why it scares Putin).
 
KingCavani said:
Except it really does matter if you're going to complain about inaction.

Not everything is analogous to WW2 - It's such a lazy comparison people make of every situation because to many it's the only history they know. If Hitler had the destructive capabilities Putin had then what do you think would have happened as he was getting boxed in militarily?

Putin has a deterrent against Hitler's fate. You can't deploy the same tactics again without risking literally everyone.
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Not every military conflict is automatically going to end up with the ultimate weapon.

And ignoring the past is quite wrong. Because all military commanders are schooled in military history. That is a simple fact.
I have a close friend who is part of officer training for the Army, so I am well aware of this.
 
sport2793 said:
This is quite frankly all lies and propaganda fueled by those who dont want to accept the truth of their own crimes. The Serbians committed 5x the amount of war crimes compared to other parties in the multiple conflicts they were involved in. They literally tried to wipe out ethnic groups, the Bosnian Serbs being the worst in this regard.
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Don't bring in the Ex-Yugoslavian war. I lived through it as an civilian and as a soldier, and would appriciate that people who haven't to honestly stfu about things they know nothing more about than what they have seen on tv.
 
Hound Dog said:
You can see a clear shift in how he has behaved since 2008. It started with Georgia and continued here.
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08 was when the US formally supported the idea of Georgia and Ukraine joining NATO. Guess what happened after that within 12 months, invasion of Georgia, Changed the Russian constitution so he stayed in power longer, modernised the army, think they also got a pro Russian Ukrainian elected as well.
 
Hound Dog said:
This is actually exactly what I think. I never said it was the same situation, it is just how he presents it.
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I lost count how often Putin referred to NATO intervention in 1999. We can not discount it. It's part of his calculus.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
NATO operates a central command structure that would direct military operations in the event of attack on a member state in Europe. It's the whole point of the organistaion.

I'm not sure you really understand the structure of NATO (and why it scares Putin).
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Exactly. In the event of a military conflict, NATO trumps national defense forces for quite obvious reasons.
 
FMWo5f-XIAIELcN


Russians scared of Ukrainian Javelins :drool:
 
Sky1981 said:
I think the bigger message Putin is sending is that the West doesn't care about any of you (Non NATO), so you better be good to Mother Russia or war it is.

Symbolically the West sitting out has a bigger ramifications
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There are not many European countries who are not NATO members at this stage.

Essentially: Switzerland (neutral but far from Russia), Ireland (neutral, far from Russia though at sea), Finland and Sweden (neutral and near Russia, so at this stage, they might want to join NATO cause of fear from Russia), Belarus (Russian satellite), Moldova (Russian lesser-satellite), Serbia (Russian ally), Bosna (wants to join NATO but gets blocked by Srbska Republic), Kosovo (wants to join NATO but not recognized by 3 NATO members), Cyprus (neutral and cannot join cause of Turkey).

So, it does not change much bar perhaps Sweden and Finland deciding to join, and perhaps Serbia being forced to choose either Russia or the EU.
 
Denis79 said:
Don't bring in the Ex-Yugoslavian war. I lived through it as an civilian and as a soldier, and would appriciate that people who haven't to honestly stfu about things they know nothing more about than what they have seen on tv.
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Excellent point.
 
Revan said:
It absolutely is. Go compare the change in regimes after the elections in Kosovo, and compare it with Macedonia when thugs almost killed Zaev and co. Go check the freedom of independent media in Kosovo where every prime minister is attacked all the time, and compare it with Serbia's where Vucic has every relevant media under control.
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You have people suspected of war crimes in the parlaiment, one of them was even president. The case with the orghan trade is it solved? Or was that the Serbs also? Kosovo has the highest percentage of corruption and crime in the region. Every drug trade, car theft, money laundering leads back to Kosovo. Murderers and terrorist wanted in my country are taking refuge there. And Vucic is no saint himself, however much better for the serbs than the leaders both Kosovo and Macedonia have.



Revan said:
We took a part of Serbia that was inhabited by 85% Albanian population, after Serbia killed 12K of us, did a decade of apartheid, and send one million of us (more than half of population) under exile.
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You took a historic part of Serbia and cleansed the serbs from their homes, and it was a process that was ongoing for decades. Then the serbs did inexcusable crimes for which some of them paid. The war crimes did by the Albanians were they punished. And this exiled people where did they go? Remember? To my country, and you thanked us by attacking the sovereignty of our homeland 2 year later. Is this true?
 
Kostov said:
Ah the morally correct westers warmongers, starting countless wars all over the world in the last 70+ years, outraged over Russia sorting out it's doorstep. The only tragic thing here is innocent people dying, Slavic brothers killing each other, while the US makes a buck.
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"Russia sorting out its doorstep" is an outrageous description of what is happening. Unbelievably stupid post.
 
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