Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Perhaps @harms can give us his opinion on the following topic. From youtube videos like the one below, I get the impression that there is constant propaganda in Russia that "truth is relative", and "we cannot know the truth". And many people have genuinely accepted that. But if one accepts that "we cannot know the truth" then they can also claim that the authorities are not actually lying to them (since it is impossible to know the truth).

This video is just an example. It seems that the majority of Russians do not know that the Soviet Union was occupying the Baltic States against their will. It also seems that the majority of Russians do not know about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and that Stalin actually had a friendship agreement with Hitler. This is not "just ignorance of history", I get the feeling that many of these people do not believe in truth and in reality and in facts, like everything is a matter of opinion. Or do they just pretend so?


It’s hard to speak for the majority but it’s certainly a coping strategy for many. Especially for those who spent most of their lives disinterested in politics.

As for the history – I’m pretty sure that all of them are genuine in their ignorance. It’s how history is taught in schools, sadly, and it’s an older issue than this current trend for truth’s ambivalence.
 
It’s hard to speak for the majority but it’s certainly a coping strategy for many. Especially for those who spent most of their lives disinterested in politics.

As for the history – I’m pretty sure that all of them are genuine in their ignorance. It’s how history is taught in schools, sadly, and it’s an older issue than this current trend for truth’s ambivalence.
How is WWII being thought over there, specifically the holocaust?
 
How is WWII being thought over there, specifically the holocaust?
I am pretty certain the atrocities by the Nazis are covered well. However, the atrocities by Stalin (holodomor, purges etc) are covered in a different light - first diminished in outcome (people killed) , second presented as logical decisions for survival of the country in that particular point of time.

Oh and no mentions of the Molotov-Ribentrop now.
 
Well, they promised Erdogan something. Either a step forward into the EU, more money or he gets some new NATO toys. He doesn't help Ukraine or allow Sweden join NATO out of the goodness of his heart. He also urgently needs good relations with the west, given Lira lost 1/3 of it's value in the last 3-4 months.

Tiktok army suffers. Now they're in the position Ukraine was. Sitting in Bakhmut and being constantly shelled from highground.


I wonder whether the recent economic development of Turkey as well as the tight election result has pushed Erdogan to realign his political course. My impression the last few weeks from the media reports I read was that there were some surprising approximations towards the West.
 
How is WWII being thought over there, specifically the holocaust?
I am pretty certain the atrocities by the Nazis are covered well. However, the atrocities by Stalin (holodomor, purges etc) are covered in a different light - first diminished in outcome (people killed) , second presented as logical decisions for survival of the country in that particular point of time.

Oh and no mentions of the Molotov-Ribentrop now.
This. Molotov’s pact was taught in schools until recently but always as an afterthought, never as a point to reflect upon. Stalin’s atrocities are mostly ignored. Holocaust is covered pretty well.
 
Very good news out of Vilnius so far.

- Germany deliveres another 600-700 million package including Leopard 1 tanks
- France will deliver their long range missiles, the equivalent of the Storm Shadows which hurt the russians a lot
- Norway will quadruple their military aid to Ukraine


And it's only the beginning of the summit. Only with such messages Russia can and must understand, that they are doomed as long as they stay in Ukraine.
 
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I wouldn’t want the teams I support or follow to play Russian or Belarusian teams, and I wouldn’t want my country to issue their athletes visas, even if that means losing hosting rights. It should be the exact attitude we took towards South African sports in opposition to apartheid.
What about individual athletes playing in other countries? You mention South Africa under apartheid when national teams were quite rightly banned from competition while individuals could still partake in their sport.
In cricket the likes of Barry Richards, Clive Rice, Mike Proctor and many others
Tennis Frew Mcmillan and Kevin Curran off the top of my head
I'm sure their are many many more examples in sport around that time.

Do you think all Russian and Belarusian athletes/sportspeople should be banned from competing outside of their countries or just the national teams?
 
I am pretty certain the atrocities by the Nazis are covered well. However, the atrocities by Stalin (holodomor, purges etc) are covered in a different light - first diminished in outcome (people killed) , second presented as logical decisions for survival of the country in that particular point of time.

Oh and no mentions of the Molotov-Ribentrop now.
This. Molotov’s pact was taught in schools until recently but always as an afterthought, never as a point to reflect upon. Stalin’s atrocities are mostly ignored. Holocaust is covered pretty well.

Thanks to you guys. The reason I was asking is that I’m quite curious to see how the holocaust is taught, considering that Russia itself is a genocidal state.
 
This. Molotov’s pact was taught in schools until recently but always as an afterthought, never as a point to reflect upon. Stalin’s atrocities are mostly ignored. Holocaust is covered pretty well.

Has the "secret" protocol ever been taught?
 
Thanks to you guys. The reason I was asking is that I’m quite curious to see how the holocaust is taught, considering that Russia itself is a genocidal state.
Germany is the only country that has deep self reflection in its post ww2 education. In Japan, which genocide and wartime (and even pre-war) atrocities are really of similar magnitude to that of the Nazis, doesn't get to mention it in its curriculum.

Another thing that doesn't get a mention is the actual factology of the Pacific theater of WW2, I.e Pearl Harbour. But that's for different thread.
 
It’s hard to speak for the majority but it’s certainly a coping strategy for many. Especially for those who spent most of their lives disinterested in politics.

As for the history – I’m pretty sure that all of them are genuine in their ignorance. It’s how history is taught in schools, sadly, and it’s an older issue than this current trend for truth’s ambivalence.
You could make the argument that certain types of politicians in the US are following this path in how history is taught
 
Has the "secret" protocol ever been taught?
Yeah. It also depends on a school I guess but there haven’t been any government policy on the matter before recently. Now equating USSR to Nazi Germany (and explaining the pact counts as one) is a criminal offense I believe.
 
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Yeah. It also depends on a school I guess but there haven’t been any government policy on the matter before recently. Not equating USSR to Nazi Germany (and explaining the pact counts as one) is a criminal offense I believe.
I suppose you mean now instead of not
 
Yeah. It also depends on a school I guess but there haven’t been any government policy on the matter before recently. Now equating USSR to Nazi Germany (and explaining the pact counts as one) is a criminal offense I believe.

Thanks. In the US, there’s long been a resistance to teaching our historical evils (genocide of Native Americans, slavery, segregation, etc) in too much detail, but it’s never been illegal until recently in states like Florida and Texas. I’m sure I learned more about it because I was in the advanced US History class in high school than I would have in a lower version of it.
 
Germany is the only country that has deep self reflection in its post ww2 education. In Japan, which genocide and wartime (and even pre-war) atrocities are really of similar magnitude to that of the Nazis, doesn't get to mention it in its curriculum.

Another thing that doesn't get a mention is the actual factology of the Pacific theater of WW2, I.e Pearl Harbour. But that's for different thread.
I have a hard time with these statements. Because while there is some truth to it, it suggests that we have successfully tackled our ills. And that’s not the case. There are so many myths about the third reich still established in German culture, that I just can’t let these statements stand. But as you said, this is material for a different thread.
 
Thanks. In the US, there’s long been a resistance to teaching our historical evils (genocide of Native Americans, slavery, segregation, etc) in too much detail, but it’s never been illegal until recently in states like Florida and Texas. I’m sure I learned more about it because I was in the advanced US History class in high school than I would have in a lower version of it.
I think this sort of thing is commonplace throughout the world, I know when I was at school in the UK I wasn't taught about slavery and the UK's role in it,

When I was 10 years old the school I was at celebrated it's 100th birthday, this was in the Manchester area, so a suitable topic for a class project might have been the industrial revolution, life of a Victorian family or child that might have attended the school when it opened, cotton?

Nope, the project was the American Civil War, when it started, the major battles and such like, very little on the whys and wherefores
 
I have a hard time with these statements. Because while there is some truth to it, it suggests that we have successfully tackled our ills. And that’s not the case. There are so many myths about the third reich still established in German culture, that I just can’t let these statements stand. But as you said, this is material for a different thread.
Sure, my only point was about what is covered on the history curriculum.
 


I feel outcome of this wouldn't change anything for the better. Let's assume best case scenario, and Russia accepts even fecking off from Crimea in order to stop war, it's still the same country set up with Oligarchs, president with questionable, to say the least, background and military worshiping. At best, they will go back to funding right wing politicians and try to just cause carnage from within, at worst, they will rearm, few decades maybe, and will terrorize/invade neighbours again.
 
The last Kasparov quote is really all we need to know. Russia under Putin will continue to do as it always has unless it is stopped, he isn't influenced by anyone, fools like Macron who think they have his ear just seem weak. His whole image has taken a battering that losing the war in Ukraine won't be survivable for him, all these NATO countries need do is stay united.
 
Wow, that’s quite bullish from GK. I’m not sure I agree on everything though. As harsh as it sounds, Biden’s responsibility is to to Americans. He has a duty to do everything he can to avoid US soldiers dying in Ukraine.

I think they’ll still join but it could easily be in 10 or 20 years in a post-Putin scenario. Hopefully sooner.