Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[TMDaines]

What are people thinking about the sports argument now? It makes me feel uncomfortable that so many Russian athletes/teams are still being booed or heavily restricted but there is little to no backlash against athletes from other nations. We (Scotland) were actually fined for booing the Israel national anthem when we played them/displaying a flag opposing them.

I wouldn’t want the teams I support or follow to play Russian or Belarusian teams, and I wouldn’t want my country to issue their athletes visas, even if that means losing hosting rights. It should be the exact attitude we took towards South African sports in opposition to apartheid.

 

[Maroon Lucifer]

What are people thinking about the sports argument now? It makes me feel uncomfortable that so many Russian athletes/teams are still being booed or heavily restricted but there is little to no backlash against athletes from other nations. We (Scotland) were actually fined for booing the Israel national anthem when we played them/displaying a flag opposing them.

What flag was that? Because am thinking about bringing a Palestinian flag to the Faroe Islands v Israel game.

 

[Ragnar123]

After the release of Ukrainian Azov leadership, there are rumours that Turkey will continue to defend Ukrainian grain ships, even if Russia cancels the deal.
Is it Erdogan's usual show, or does he really want to steer Turkey more towards Europe and away from Russia?



There is also this. If true, then either Russia directly hit the base, or Assad's forces with Russia's support did this.



But the golden rule is still never to trust Erdogan. So let's see what will happen.

 

[massi83]

What are people thinking about the sports argument now? It makes me feel uncomfortable that so many Russian athletes/teams are still being booed or heavily restricted but there is little to no backlash against athletes from other nations. We (Scotland) were actually fined for booing the Israel national anthem when we played them/displaying a flag opposing them.

If they haven't come out opposing the war, feck them.

As for the second part, uefa fines everyone for the pettiest little things they can come up with. Terrible organisation, for obviously many reason, this is one of the minor ones. For instance they fined HJK because people were yelling "uefa mafia". They just really really love collecting money.

 

[Lightbringer]

 

[SilentWitness]

What flag was that? Because am thinking about bringing a Palestinian flag to the Faroe Islands v Israel game.

A Palestine flag that said ‘Zionism is racism. Victory to the intifada’.

If they haven't come out opposing the war, feck them.

As for the second part, uefa fines everyone for the pettiest little things they can come up with. Terrible organisation, for obviously many reason, this is one of the minor ones. For instance they fined HJK because people were yelling "uefa mafia". They just really really love collecting money.

Indeed, but it just feels like a case of we don’t like you to talk about politics unless it’s the politics we want you to talk about at times.

 

[SilentWitness]

I wouldn’t want the teams I support or follow to play Russian or Belarusian teams, and I wouldn’t want my country to issue their athletes visas, even if that means losing hosting rights. It should be the exact attitude we took towards South African sports in opposition to apartheid.

While understandable and I don’t disagree, I wish we would make similar decisions and discussions in sport surrounding other nations.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What are people thinking about the sports argument now? It makes me feel uncomfortable that so many Russian athletes/teams are still being booed or heavily restricted but there is little to no backlash against athletes from other nations. We (Scotland) were actually fined for booing the Israel national anthem when we played them/displaying a flag opposing them.

Why does it make you uncomfortable?

 

[massi83]

A Palestine flag that said ‘Zionism is racism. Victory to the intifada’.




Indeed, but it just feels like a case of we don’t like you to talk about politics unless it’s the politics we want you to talk about at times.

Oh, it absolutely is. But I have lost all hope for UEFA or FIFA long time ago. On Wednesday I will be yelling "uefa mafia" again, out of habit. Hope they have fun with their 20k€, cnuts.

 

[SilentWitness]

Why does it make you uncomfortable?

Because it once again demonstrates that our government/other governments or organisations only care about this kind of stuff if they do/don’t have a hand in the pie so to speak.

 

[Lightbringer]

Because it once again demonstrates that our government/other governments or organisations only care about this kind of stuff if they do/don’t have a hand in the pie so to speak.

Its people that are booing, not the government. I would boo pro Putin propganda puppet Alexander Ovechkin regardless of what the government says, when you see a dirtbag, you call it out!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Because it once again demonstrates that our government/other governments or organisations only care about this kind of stuff if they do/don’t have a hand in the pie so to speak.

Yeah, what he said. It’s not the government that is giving stick to athletes who represent Russia. And there’s a long tradition of fans booing teams/individuals that represent other distasteful regimes. We’ve even seen Liverpool fans booing God Save the King on coronation day.

It seems very strange to feel bad about what’s happening to Russian sports people in this context.

 

[Boycott]

How would you describe the group of people who before the invasion took place kept on mocking the possibility of it happening as propaganda but as soon as it happened started cheerleading as if it was good and righteous to happen all along? I'm not talking of people who after the event chose to side with Russia but the people who were so smug and confident that it was never going to happen and the whole thing was lies by CIA/media/western governments until it did happen and now there was justification. I had a conversation with one of these people and all it took was me to see what they were posting one week before the invasion for it to come to an abrupt end.

 

[SilentWitness]

Its people that are booing, not the government. I would boo pro Putin propganda puppet Alexander Ovechkin regardless of what the government says, when you see a dirtbag, you call it out!

Yeah, what he said. It’s not the government that is giving stick to athletes who represent Russia. And there’s a long tradition of fans booing teams/individuals that represent other distasteful regimes. We’ve even seen Liverpool fans booing God Save the King on coronation day.

It seems very strange to feel bad about what’s happening to Russian sports people in this context.

It isn’t necessarily the Russian sports people I feel bad for but the uncomfortableness stems from it being heavily weighted and deemed ‘okay’ to boo or ostracise one group of players but it isn’t okay or ostracise others because of fancy trade deals/relationships we have.

I think there is quite a clear trend with how the media and our government push certain issues and how that’s reflected in public opinion so while it’s the public booing they are definitely also influenced by the elite.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[harms]

How would you describe the group of people who before the invasion took place kept on mocking the possibility of it happening as propaganda but as soon as it happened started cheerleading as if it was good and righteous to happen all along? I'm not talking of people who after the event chose to side with Russia but the people who were so smug and confident that it was never going to happen and the whole thing was lies by CIA/media/western governments until it did happen and now there was justification. I had a conversation with one of these people and all it took was me to see what they were posting one week before the invasion for it to come to an abrupt end.

How would you want to describe them and, more importantly, why would you want to describe them as anyone other than people who were mistaken in their opinion?

 

[Boycott]

How would you want to describe them and, more importantly, why would you want to describe them as anyone other than people who were mistaken in their opinion?

Well that's the thing - they don't act like they were simply mistaken in their opinion. There's no contrition that they were wrong. In fact they were very confident in one opinion (that any invasion was all propaganda talk and Russia would never do it) to confidently flipping their opinion that now an invasion by Russia was perfectly justified. That in my view is being totally incoherent. A lot of these people call themselves anti-war or anti-imperialists and how can that be so when you've suddenly gone to cheerleading an invading army.

 

[harms]

Well that's the thing - they don't act like they were simply mistaken in their opinion. There's no contrition that they were wrong. In fact they were very confident in one opinion (that any invasion was all propaganda talk and Russia would never do it) to confidently flipping their opinion that now an invasion by Russia was perfectly justified. That in my view is being totally incoherent. A lot of these people call themselves anti-war or anti-imperialists and how can that be so when you've suddenly gone to cheerleading an invading army.

Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t realize that they were supporting the invasion.

 

[JuriM]

 

[Spark]

Erdogan must sense serious weakness in Putin post Wagner putsch. He’s rinsing him left right and centre over the last week or so.

 

[stefan92]

Erdogan must sense serious weakness in Putin post Wagner putsch. He’s rinsing him left right and centre over the last week or so.

It has been a rough time for Putin... increasing disrespect for him on multiple fronts

 

[Morty_]

So what where those rumors about Turkey and EU-membership anyway, i guess nothing, or some long-term deal we dont yet know about?

 

[Spark]

So what where those rumors about Turkey and EU-membership anyway, i guess nothing, or some long-term deal we dont yet know about?

Probably some sort of concession that could be relatively minor. I also reckon he's bringing it back into the open, kind of like a "I've done all this anti-Russia shit in the last week, here's the long term price", so it's a discussion point at future summits. He loves a bit of hyperbolic leverage does Erdogan, like "letting" 6m refugees into Europe or whatever he said a few years back.

 

[NicolaSacco]

The US strategy for Ukraine looks more misconceived by the day.

It's a shame the UK and EU didn't stand up to the US mid last year.

What's the end game? The war probably goes on until Western countries vote out the parties supporting it?

So far what's been achieved?The destruction of large sections of Eastern Ukraine.

The EU, UK, US and global economy heading in to a massive recession and the political instability and further austerity that will probably follow it?

Meanwhile, it looks like even after all that Russia will still be occupying Ukrainian territory.

Total failure on all counts.

Sorry pal, but this is an absolute pile of trash, from someone who has no real understanding of what’s going on.

 

[TwoSheds]

Seems like there's a little bit of excitement in that middle bit of Ukraine tonight? They've advanced about 1km towards Berdyansk in some regions it seems. Anyone seen anything interesting about it?

 

[NicolaSacco]

Seems like there's a little bit of excitement in that middle bit of Ukraine tonight? They've advanced about 1km towards Berdyansk in some regions it seems. Anyone seen anything interesting about it?

Good to hear there is progress. Aside from retaking Crimea, which I think is unrealistic in the next year at least, getting down to the Black Sea coast and splitting the occupying forces is the holy grail for Ukraine. And Russia knows it. Let’s hope something is really happening. It’s not actually that large a distance I think.

 

[Simbo]

So what where those rumors about Turkey and EU-membership anyway, i guess nothing, or some long-term deal we dont yet know about?

The rumour was he asked about it, but until they meet the requirements for EU membership its not going to really progress.

 

[TwoSheds]

Good to hear there is progress. Aside from retaking Crimea, which I think is unrealistic in the next year at least, getting down to the Black Sea coast and splitting the occupying forces is the holy grail for Ukraine. And Russia knows it. Let’s hope something is really happening. It’s not actually that large a distance I think.

Well no but if we were to assume the Russian lines of defence with minefields and whatnot were at maximum maybe 50km deep, 1km in a day is good progress. Like you say, it would be a significant victory for Ukraine if they could isolate the Crimean peninsula from the main Russian border, let's hope they can hold the ground and keep advancing.

 

[The Firestarter]

Turkey is as far from a EU membership as Ukraine is from Nato membership.

 

[frostbite]

Perhaps @harms can give us his opinion on the following topic. From youtube videos like the one below, I get the impression that there is constant propaganda in Russia that "truth is relative", and "we cannot know the truth". And many people have genuinely accepted that. But if one accepts that "we cannot know the truth" then they can also claim that the authorities are not actually lying to them (since it is impossible to know the truth).

This video is just an example. It seems that the majority of Russians do not know that the Soviet Union was occupying the Baltic States against their will. It also seems that the majority of Russians do not know about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and that Stalin actually had a friendship agreement with Hitler. This is not "just ignorance of history", I get the feeling that many of these people do not believe in truth and in reality and in facts, like everything is a matter of opinion. Or do they just pretend so?

 

[frostbite]

By the way, this guy Daniil is amazing. And it is surprising he is not in prison yet...

 

[nimic]

Sorry pal, but this is an absolute pile of trash, from someone who has no real understanding of what’s going on.

Not the best track record in this thread. There's a reason we haven't seen him here for more than a year.

A month before the invasion. Note that he's not just talking about Russia beating Ukraine (which they haven't), he's talking about them beating NATO:

They would almost certainly win a conventional ground war in Eastern Europe, Ukraine and the Baltics.

Agree for Ukraine, and even the Baltic countries are largely at Russia's mercy here, the US won't step in and no one else has the military capability to stop Russia.

Sure if they push too far west, if they just stick to Eastern Europe little can be done to stop them.

https://warontherocks.com/2016/04/outnumbered-outranged-and-outgunned-how-russia-defeats-nato/

 

[stefan92]

Perhaps @harms can give us his opinion on the following topic. From youtube videos like the one below, I get the impression that there is constant propaganda in Russia that "truth is relative", and "we cannot know the truth". And many people have genuinely accepted that. But if one accepts that "we cannot know the truth" then they can also claim that the authorities are not actually lying to them (since it is impossible to know the truth).

This video is just an example. It seems that the majority of Russians do not know that the Soviet Union was occupying the Baltic States against their will. It also seems that the majority of Russians do not know about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and that Stalin actually had a friendship agreement with Hitler. This is not "just ignorance of history", I get the feeling that many of these people do not believe in truth and in reality and in facts, like everything is a matter of opinion. Or do they just pretend so?

Should be an interesting read about exactly the behaviour you ask about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus

 

[NicolaSacco]

Not the best track record in this thread. There's a reason we haven't seen him here for more than a year.

A month before the invasion. Note that he's not just talking about Russia beating Ukraine (which they haven't), he's talking about them beating NATO:

I read his posts before I saw your explanation that he was talking about NATO. Just wow. Astonishing demonstration of a fundamental lack of understanding.

I think we can all admit (certainly I can) to getting a few things wrong in our assessments during the build up to the invasion but this is next level wrongness.

 

[Carolina Red]

The US strategy for Ukraine looks more misconceived by the day.

It's a shame the UK and EU didn't stand up to the US mid last year.

What's the end game? The war probably goes on until Western countries vote out the parties supporting it?

So far what's been achieved?The destruction of large sections of Eastern Ukraine.

The EU, UK, US and global economy heading in to a massive recession and the political instability and further austerity that will probably follow it?

Meanwhile, it looks like even after all that Russia will still be occupying Ukrainian territory.

Total failure on all counts.

Russia adding cope cages to forum posts now?

 

[calodo2003]

Not the best track record in this thread. There's a reason we haven't seen him here for more than a year.

A month before the invasion. Note that he's not just talking about Russia beating Ukraine (which they haven't), he's talking about them beating NATO:

Ahhh yes, that fountain of doctrinal military knowledge - ‘War on the Rocks.’

 

[frostbite]

Should be an interesting read about exactly the behaviour you ask about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus

Yes, you are right. It seems relevant, especially this:


The "Soviet man" is characterised by his tendency to follow the authority of the state in its assessment of reality, to adopt an attitude of mistrust and anxiety towards anything foreign and unknown, and is convinced of his own powerlessness and inability to affect the surrounding reality; from here, it is only a step towards lacking any sense of responsibility for that reality. His suppressed aggression, birthed by his chronic dissatisfaction with life, his intense sense of injustice and his inability to achieve self-realisation, and his great envy, all erupt into a fascination with force and violence, as well as a tendency towards "negative identification" – in opposition to "the enemy" or "the foreigner". Such a personality suits a quasi-tribal approach to standards of morality and law (the things "our people" have a right to do are condemned in the "foreigner").

— "Conflict-dependent Russia. The domestic determinants of the Kremlin's anti-western policy", Maria Domańska


On the other hand, it is already more than 30 years since the collapse of the Soviet Union, do they still have many of those "homo sovieticus"? The paragraph I copied above seems to apply equally well to the Nazi Germany in 1930s ("is characterised by his tendency to follow the authority of the state in its assessment of reality, to adopt an attitude of mistrust and anxiety towards anything foreign and unknown," and so on...) but my guess is that in 1975, 30 years after 1945, it was a very different situation. I would be hoping that Russia would only have a few remnants of those "homo sovieticus" people, but I don't know, it seems I am wrong and many Russians have been unable to get out of this mindset.

 

[Real Name]

By the way, this guy Daniil is amazing. And it is surprising he is not in prison yet...

Its quite said. You could understand sort of older people who are too much in their ways to change but to see young people either brainwashed, afraid to speak out or both is depressing. Last 2 guys are pretty good though. The part about other countries and organisations wanting their resources and wanting to destroy Russia.

 

[B20]

Turkey is as far from a EU membership as Ukraine is from Nato membership.

Ukraine will have joined EU and nato long before turkey gets close to real EU consideration

 

[Ragnar123]

Well, they promised Erdogan something. Either a step forward into the EU, more money or he gets some new NATO toys. He doesn't help Ukraine or allow Sweden join NATO out of the goodness of his heart. He also urgently needs good relations with the west, given Lira lost 1/3 of it's value in the last 3-4 months.

Tiktok army suffers. Now they're in the position Ukraine was. Sitting in Bakhmut and being constantly shelled from highground.